WTC and a Mosque

[Phatscotty]

As usual, fatass Can not see beyond his pea-brain ideas.

Pork,I agree you are playing right into their hands. The muslims are going forgive Christians for the Crusades around the same time Black people will forgive America for Slavery... Not gonna happen

I do not give a rats ass if Muslims forgive or not. My point that goes over your head, is that people for the most part are stupid, mindless fucktards, that are easily lead. Just as the suicide jehadists are brainwashed, so to are dumb-asses like you. The average intelligence of humans is very low. This fact has been exploited by many demigods in our history. From Hitler, to Jim Jones, to Koresh, to Limbaugh. These types know very well the herd mentality that lives in the roots of man.

Most of us are happy just to follow the ass in front of us to where it leads. It is not a difficult thing to make some noise, and create a stampede. This is the Mob Mentality, or otherwise known as, Group Think. This Group Think can be manipulated easy enough. All you need do, is know the right buttons to push.

Osama Bin Ladin is just another Demigod that is smart enough to know these buttons. He knows that his counterparts will whip up our own cattle into a stampede. He will succeed if we let ourselves be reduced to a mob that craves revenge.

I am sorry that I sometimes get so perturbed with people like you, and resort to colorful or foul language, but It just upsets me so, to realize that I belong to the same species, as this herd of mindless cattle, that I see around me.

haha, only those 19 hi-jackers were brainwashed? I guess radical Islam died on 9-11. none of that left. no more suicide bombers right? f*ck Rush Limbuagh. You are severely incorrect in whatever you are thinking by even going there.

You go ahead and follow the ass in front of you. I applaud your bravery admitting that.

I notice you chopped out all my points and would prefer to skip right over all the serious questions at the HEART of the matter and go back to being whiny child? Are you thinking you have cried your way around that facts and slandered your way right into a flawless victory?

Are my questions about his admitted ties to Hamas really retarded?
Is my question about his use of the geographical (Baron..) importance of Cordoba, really that dumb?
Is my introduction of his insensitive statements really not important here? Do my question really deserve name-calling? You know what this is looking like? It's looking like you are afraid to a point of paranoid schizophrenia to have any legitimate, meaningful discussion, and therefore you revert to an animal like lashing attitude.

I think you lose

[Baron Von PWN]

Let me ask you guys this question.

pretend for 1 minute that you hate America. America IS the great Satan. America Deserved 9-11. Seeing 9-11 on TV made you happy, and you may have even been one of the people in a Muslim Country jumping up and down in the streets and throwing candy. Pretend you are that person for one minute.

Would you be interested in visiting this Mosque right by ground zero? When you were there, would you feel a sense of pride in your religion and it's actions? Would you view the Mosque building as a victory?

Maybe they would. Once they heard what the iman had to say though they would probably change their mind.

I wonder if, the Imam is completely immune to the tactic of campaigning? Does anyone ever say they are going to do one thing, and then do the other? Why does everyone trust him? wtf? He supports Hamas!

LINK TO TERRORISM AND TERRORISTS.

no dice

Allot of people support Hamas or at least don't dismiss them as simply being terrorists this isin't all that radical either. In the Palestinian vs Israel thing its hard to find a good guy and a bad guy. Has Hamas used terrorist tactics indisputable, does that immediately make them terrorists i'm not so sure. Especially not when the people they are fighting regularly bulldoze peoples homes and indiscriminately bomb civilian populations.

This isin't as clear cut as you're making it out to be. All this guy has done is refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organization, he hasn't come out and endorsed their actions.

[porkenbeans]

How old are you Fatso ?

You would have to be an 80 year old, to get away with calling me a child. hahaha.

[Phatscotty]

Let me ask you guys this question.

pretend for 1 minute that you hate America. America IS the great Satan. America Deserved 9-11. Seeing 9-11 on TV made you happy, and you may have even been one of the people in a Muslim Country jumping up and down in the streets and throwing candy. Pretend you are that person for one minute.

Would you be interested in visiting this Mosque right by ground zero? When you were there, would you feel a sense of pride in your religion and it's actions? Would you view the Mosque building as a victory?

Maybe they would. Once they heard what the iman had to say though they would probably change their mind.

I wonder if, the Imam is completely immune to the tactic of campaigning? Does anyone ever say they are going to do one thing, and then do the other? Why does everyone trust him? wtf? He supports Hamas!

LINK TO TERRORISM AND TERRORISTS.

no dice

Allot of people support Hamas or at least don't dismiss them as simply being terrorists this isin't all that radical either. In the Palestinian vs Israel thing its hard to find a good guy and a bad guy. Has Hamas used terrorist tactics indisputable, does that immediately make them terrorists i'm not so sure. Especially not when the people they are fighting regularly bulldoze peoples homes and indiscriminately bomb civilian populations.

This isin't as clear cut as you're making it out to be. All this guy has done is refuse to call Hamas a terrorist organization, he hasn't come out and endorsed their actions.

I understand that, and that struggle. It doesn't have to be clear cut. I think there are enough small things that they should have picked a better schill. I don't think you let a guy on an airplane who "slightly possibly" recieved terror training at an al-qada camp. I hope you see that analogy, as it's not perfect.

If they build it, I hope I am wrong. Nobody can say what is going to happen. At least I have seen that this is the issue Obama decided to stand up for private property rights (which get shafted ALL the time) so I think Obama is full of shit.

I think there is a great analogy in the fact that many people have tried to block Glenn Beck 1st amendment rights, in the form of blocking the permits (olbermann and maddow go on and on about this) where Beck wants to practice the right to assemble and the right to speak freely. No comment from Obama, I am sure he would even try to infringe on Beck's rights, as he has 3 people directly under him who's job it is to destroy Glenn beck by destroying his sponsors. I am not changing the subject, I just feel we are done on the prior. I think it's insensitive. end of story. The man can practice his religion freely anywhere he chooses. Done.

If this is going to turn into people have a right to build a church so long as they have the private property, then I think there are going to be 2 million tax-exept churches formed tomorrow. Oops, already been done and shot down (CA tax-churches 80's). 1st amendment didnt hold up for them. not saying it shouldnt hold up now, just that it was never infringed for this man in the first place. its a horrible argument.

[Phatscotty]

will add, if they build it, I will also support it and wish them the best, and smile if I hear a good story, if the mosque is built.

Before hand, while I have a say, just as in the Iraq war, I am against it.

[2dimes]

will add, if they build it, I will also support it and wish them the best, and smile if I hear a good story, if the mosque is built.

Before hand, while I have a say, just as in the Iraq war, I am against it.

Someone here claimed it's not going to be a mosque which would be a church. This would be more like a YMCA.

Try and build one of those in Syria though. I would be interested to see if you could go to the permit office with a proposal to build a Young men's christian association and survive. I don't know who's been to a Y in the last couple of decades but they are hardly a church.

[Bork9128]

to be clear the mosque is not at ground zero it is two blocks away and within two blocks of ground zero there are hundreds of buildings including other mosques and strip clubs and off hand gambling sites ect ect so are we going to go and close all them down because we feel they are offensive to the memory of 9/11

it makes me sad to see the amount of narrow minded people who simply blame 9/11 on Muslims and say all Muslims are terrorists

the terrorists were muslims but the actions of few do not define all no where in the Quran
does it say to kill innocent people because you dont like them

9/11 was an atrocity, nothing can ever justify what they did and god forbid something like that happen again but it important to blame the right people the few who actually participated in it

the us in no way deserved 9/11 but the reason Osama and Al-Qaeda hate the west is our fault

we gave them the weapons money and training they're using back when they were fight russia and promised to help Afghanistan rebuild

after the war afganistan had lost 1/3 of it whole population nearly all of its farmland and was the 4th least developed country in the world and we backed out our promise to help rebuild and left it to paskistan who promptly took advantage of the situation and used afghanistan to grow and smuggle drugs

and soon civil war started again which is why the country is so unstable

we should not blacklist and restrict all Muslims because of what a few extremists do need i remind you that Christians and Jews have done some very bad things of there own both today and in the past but that doesn't mean we are all bad i know several muslims myself and they are quite pleasant people

as for this mosque/community center I wish them the best with them building it where they plan as long as they follow the law

America was founded to be a tolerant place for all people regardless of gender religion or ethnicity i'm sad to see have seen it fallen so far

[2dimes]

This.

It is NOT a Mosque.
It is to be a Community Center.
We are not at war with Muslim Community Centers.
Or even Muslims, for that matter.
Are we really going to tell Religious organizations, where they can, and can not, put their buildings in The United States of America ?

Um, ok not the guy you want to see making the statement, sorry.

My question for anyone really. Is this thing going to be a Mosque or I T C of somesort?

[Phatscotty]

will add, if they build it, I will also support it and wish them the best, and smile if I hear a good story, if the mosque is built.

Before hand, while I have a say, just as in the Iraq war, I am against it.

Someone here claimed it's not going to be a mosque which would be a church. This would be more like a YMCA.

Try and build one of those in Syria though. I would be interested to see if you could go to the permit office with a proposal to build a Young men's christian association and survive. I don't know who's been to a Y in the last couple of decades but they are hardly a church.

I'm pretty sure you are dead by the time you say "I was hoping to get a permit to build a Christian Chu.......gurgle gurgle"

I think, because of muslim actions, the muslims are getting a piece of the "racist" stigma. Not so much racist, but really, look what 3 signs did to tolerance of the tea party. I would love to see you in a thread saying "it's just 3 signs. that does not speak for all the tea party" But no, it only "They were just 19 muslims, who flew airplanes into skyscrpaers killing thousands of innocent civilians and therefore caused millions of muslims worldwide to rejoice and praise god. Those 19 guys dont speak for all muslims.

Tell you what Dimes, It sure looked like it to me.

[2dimes]

Agreed.

"Shalom, I would like to build a YMCA."
Clerk, "What this is? Y,M,C,A"
"It's a great place with a pool and gym some books."
Clerk, "No, I mean what Y,M,C,A?"
"Oh, it's, young men's christian a- aaaaiiiaaarghe-gurgle-gurgle."

[Baron Von PWN]

http://daryllang.com/blog/4421

[2dimes]

I'm not sure what you're going for there Baron. If you wanted to highlight that it would be a super unlikely place for a mosque, I'm with you. If you hoped to prove Sara Palin is just another show girl, can't deny that either.

That did have him state it's not a mosque so there's that. Anything I missed?

[rdsrds2120]

Firstly, the group requesting to build the Mosque haven't actually broken any law requesting to build in their location, and as of now, I know not of one single argument that is both reasonable and plausible to deny the construction of the Mosque/Community Center. One of my favorites though, is Eric Cantor's "AWE, COME ON!" attack. lol, you can look it up if you want.

Now, this topic seems to be the hysteria of the US right now (thank you media), but just look back at all of our other 'hysterias'. Remember freedom fries? Introduced by Robert Ney and Senator Walter Jones? Yeah, they're quoted to having regretting that. What about that same year, with the giant duct tape scare? Not good enough? Let's go a little farther back now, can anyone say, McCarthyism? These are all examples of topics that cause hysteria among people, just like the situation we have now. Each one of those 'hysterias' each died down and left us looking back at the events with a double take saying, "Ouch, what were we thinking?" Five years from now, which side do you think is honestly going to prevail?

Furthermore, just as the right, lawful thing ended up happening after each hysteria mentioned above, this is going to be a rinse and repeat of what's already happened with different circumstances. Which side do you think is honestly going to win? Almost definitely the group arguing to build the mosque, community center, what have you. Like I said - there aren't really any lawfully good reasons for not allowing its construction. The only arguments there that I've heard are the personal anti-Muslim complaints of confused citizens. Citizens that maybe think, "Eh, who needs the Establishment Clause? Heck, let's just throw out the whole 1st amendment, well, except when it applies to non-Muslims, of course."

When it comes down to it, Muslims have the right to practice their religion, just like Christians, Jews, etc have the right to practice theirs, and also how the Atheists have the right to not practice a religion, and just as those Christians, Jews, or any other religious groups are allowed to build places of worship, the Muslims have the right to, too. If this, somehow, legally isn't allowed to happen, I'd pack your bags anyone from Japan, because at that rate the internment camps would probably spring back up.

[slowreactor]

*Sigh* Guys, no matter how much you personally support this, there are still going to be people out there arguing against this. Why? America's base was the Puritans who fled from England to be able to practice their own religion in peace. As a result, much of the conservative base believes that America is supposed to be the shining example of God's will on Earth, rather than the free country that the Constitution states (Anyone see the irony there?). As a result, when the issue is in line with the Bible, they'll use the Constitution to support it, but when it's not, they ditch the Constitution and try to appeal to "the way it is meant to be".

[tzor]

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean something is proper.

The best example is the nuns of Auschwitz. They owned the property; they had every legal right to live in the convent. Considering that Auschwitz was not only where Jews but other non desirables were held and murdered, they had every right to pray for the souls of the departed and for healing in the world. But their presence was also deeply hurting those who had relatives who died at that horrible place. In the end, even though they had a “legal” right, they left.

Another example is the right of free speech. Most people will strongly agree to that and support it. But people who stand within sight of grieving families who are buying their loved ones killed in the service to their country with signs saying that their deaths was a good thing and they deserved it is clearly not appropriate and most people will agree that this is not the place nor the time to have such expressions.

If you want to talk about the Mosque in Staten Island, I will gladly defend those who claim that they had a right to purchase the structure and use it. I will gladly defend their statements that they would work with the community and argue that the community should not a-priori dismiss their good will gestures off hand.

That’s the big problem. People want to throw a “religious liberty” argument over it as though there are no other factors to consider. The people who are generally opposed to it are opposed to the specific location in question. Would you want a Shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor? A convent at Auschwitz? A McDonalds at ground zero Hiroshima?

[2dimes]

What is at ground zero Hiroshima?

Freedom fries was only funny up here, we just didn't get the darkness of it. Then again I suppose we were part of the group that didn't go to Iraq. I think I somehow missed the giant duct tape scare.

BaronVonPwn, I hope my questioning post didn't come of harsh because if we were speaking it would not have. Text sucks for these kind of discussions.

[2dimes]

Huh, good thing it was bogus. I never bought any duct tape and Poly vapour barrier sheets. I guess I'd be done for now.

I quit watching the news years ago because it's been fear mongering for as long as it's been around. I'm confident I have had a higher level of quality in my life due to not participating in "duct tape scares."

[BigBallinStalin]

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean something is proper.

The best example is the nuns of Auschwitz. They owned the property; they had every legal right to live in the convent. Considering that Auschwitz was not only where Jews but other non desirables were held and murdered, they had every right to pray for the souls of the departed and for healing in the world. But their presence was also deeply hurting those who had relatives who died at that horrible place. In the end, even though they had a “legal” right, they left.

I'd use a different analogy. Comparing 9/11 to the Auschwitz just doesn't cut it, and the circumstances of both are different.

Another example is the right of free speech. Most people will strongly agree to that and support it. But people who stand within sight of grieving families who are buying their loved ones killed in the service to their country with signs saying that their deaths was a good thing and they deserved it is clearly not appropriate and most people will agree that this is not the place nor the time to have such expressions.

Sure, it's inappropriate, but that's fine with me. Let them say their rubbish, and then isolate themselves from the larger group. No problem here. Limited this freedom simply because some people don't like what's said is not a good enough reason.

If you want to talk about the Mosque in Staten Island, I will gladly defend those who claim that they had a right to purchase the structure and use it. I will gladly defend their statements that they would work with the community and argue that the community should not a-priori dismiss their good will gestures off hand.

That’s the big problem. People want to throw a “religious liberty” argument over it as though there are no other factors to consider. The people who are generally opposed to it are opposed to the specific location in question. Would you want a Shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor? A convent at Auschwitz? A McDonalds at ground zero Hiroshima?

These are different. Like so many others, you're associating all of Islam and all Muslims with this extreme minority group.

Some convent praying for Jews I can see being troublesome since they have no business being there in the first place. The Holocaust is an extremely sensitive issue (much more than 9/11, by lightyears), and I can see many Jews of the Orthodox alignment being offended that non-Jews are so directly involved. A Shinto shrine is directly for the Emperor; whereas, a mosque from some moderate-sounding imam isn't at all in tune with Islamic fundamentalists. As for McDonalds, I wouldn't be surprised if that was already there. (Also, we're getting into very different cultures with different perspectives and ways of handling certain issues, which just muddies your analogies even more).

[GabonX]

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

It's a tasteless choice. This is akin to opening a German pride center across from or on top of a concentration camp.

A decent person with pure intentions that wanted to bridge the gap between cultures wouldn't take these kinds of actions.

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

The Caliphs in Spain may have tolerated the existence of Christians and Jews (as the Koran commands) but Christians and Jews were still treated as second class citizens (as the Koran commands). What's more, you just made all of that up with no evidence of it being correct. There are patterns of behavior which exist in Islamic culture. Building on top of conquered ground has been standard practice in Islam for 1300 years.

Tolerance is only ever extended, if it's extended, after there is perception of Islamic supremacy in a society. The construction of this mosque at the chosen location with the chosen name is seen and heard throughout the Islamic world as a step towards that end and this Imam knows that to be the case. I've seen no evidence of internal dialogue (internal being the key word) which shows that he's trying to encourage legitimate reform.

There's no indication that the people involved have made any effort to extend tolerance to other groups. We do know that this Imam has tried to rationalize the actions of the 9/11 terrorists and that he refuses to condemn a number of terrorist organizations. He's been shown to be preaching questionable things when he speaks in Arabic as well.

[GabonX]

to be clear the mosque is not at ground zero it is two blocks away

It's one block away (WTC 7)

the terrorists were muslims but the actions of few do not define all no where in the Quran
does it say to kill innocent people because you dont like them

Yes it does you ignorant fool..

It instructs murder or conversion of everyone who is not a Muslim, Christian, or Jew, and of Christians and Jews who do not submit to Islamic supremacy. This has been well covered and cited in these forums.

I just love it when people claim to be knowledgeable on the topic of the Koran and in the next breath unequivocally demonstrate their ignorance.

the us in no way deserved 9/11 but the reason Osama and Al-Qaeda hate the west is our fault

we gave them the weapons money and training they're using back when they were fight russia and promised to help Afghanistan rebuild

after the war afganistan had lost 1/3 of it whole population nearly all of its farmland and was the 4th least developed country in the world and we backed out our promise to help rebuild and left it to paskistan who promptly took advantage of the situation and used afghanistan to grow and smuggle drugs

and soon civil war started again which is why the country is so unstable

First off, you're confusing the Taliban with Al Qaeda. We armed the Taliban in the 80's. Al Qaeda attacked the United States on 9/11..

Second, the reason they gave for the attack wasn't that we stopped supporting their allies in Afghanistan. Their justification for attacking the US was that dirty infidel Americans set foot on their sacred Arabian peninsula (with the consent of the Saudi government nonetheless) during the Gulf War.

[GabonX]

Firstly, the group requesting to build the Mosque haven't actually broken any law requesting to build in their location, and as of now, I know not of one single argument that is both reasonable and plausible to deny the construction of the Mosque/Community Center. One of my favorites though, is Eric Cantor's "AWE, COME ON!" attack. lol, you can look it up if you want.

This is interesting. I wouldn't actually be in favor of the government forbidding the construction of this mosque. Quite simply, that's not the role of government in our country.

With that said, I can recognize that this mosque should be allowed to be built but still know that it's a tasteless and offensive act. Most people aren't capable of making that distinction. It's kind of like when the ACLU stood up for the rights of the KKK to march. They rejected the message of the KKK but still recognized their rights to expression.

So no, construction of the mosque shouldn't be "stopped" by some greater bureaucratic hand but that doesn't mean that this is a good thing. This is quite obviously a contemptuous and hateful thing which is being done, and frankly I'm much more bothered by the foolish reaction people have to it in not recognizing this than of the action itself...

Now, this topic seems to be the hysteria of the US right now (thank you media), but just look back at all of our other 'hysterias'. Remember freedom fries? Introduced by Robert Ney and Senator Walter Jones? Yeah, they're quoted to having regretting that. What about that same year, with the giant duct tape scare? Not good enough? Let's go a little farther back now, can anyone say, McCarthyism? These are all examples of topics that cause hysteria among people, just like the situation we have now. Each one of those 'hysterias' each died down and left us looking back at the events with a double take saying, "Ouch, what were we thinking?" Five years from now, which side do you think is honestly going to prevail.

I think that the true colors of this Imam are only going to become more transparent with time

[Metsfanmax]

the terrorists were muslims but the actions of few do not define all no where in the Quran
does it say to kill innocent people because you dont like them

Yes it does you ignorant fool..

It instructs murder or conversion of everyone who is not a Muslim, Christian, or Jew, and of Christians and Jews who do not submit to Islamic supremacy. This has been well covered and cited in these forums.

I just love it when people claim to be knowledgeable on the topic of the Koran and in the next breath unequivocally demonstrate their ignorance.

Well, Bork was talking about "innocent" people who you "don't like." To be fair, the Koran does not instruct Muslims to murder those people. It is only the "infidels."

[GabonX]

That's true..

I suppose they could "like" the infidels but would still be obliged to kill them.

[Metsfanmax]

That's true..

I suppose they could "like" the infidels but would still be obliged to kill them.

Actually, I wonder about that. Would it be uncool for a true believer to be friends with an infidel?

[DangerBoy]

It is NOT a Mosque.
It is to be a Community Center.