WTC and a Mosque

[Woodruff]

Can we also get into why this guy names his shit "Cordoba"? Gabon already did a good thread on this

Included in that thread was a great rebuttal to GabonX's point...did you overlook it?

[GabonX]

Can we also get into why this guy names his shit "Cordoba"? Gabon already did a good thread on this

Included in that thread was a great rebuttal to GabonX's point...did you overlook it?

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

It's a tasteless choice. This is akin to opening a German pride center across from or on top of a concentration camp.

A decent person with pure intentions that wanted to bridge the gap between cultures wouldn't take these kinds of actions.

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

The Caliphs in Spain may have tolerated the existence of Christians and Jews (as the Koran commands) but Christians and Jews were still treated as second class citizens (as the Koran commands). What's more, you just made all of that up with no evidence of it being correct. There are patterns of behavior which exist in Islamic culture. Building on top of conquered ground has been standard practice in Islam for 1300 years.

Tolerance is only ever extended, if it's extended, after there is perception of Islamic supremacy in a society. The construction of this mosque at the chosen location with the chosen name is seen and heard throughout the Islamic world as a step towards that end and this Imam knows that to be the case. I've seen no evidence of internal dialogue (internal being the key word) which shows that he's trying to encourage legitimate reform.

There's no indication that the people involved have made any effort to extend tolerance to other groups. We do know that this Imam has tried to rationalize the actions of the 9/11 terrorists and that he refuses to condemn a number of terrorist organizations. He's been shown to be preaching questionable things when he speaks in Arabic as well.

[bradleybadly]

So based on the above to responses, it seems that people have difficulty in distinguishing between radical, fucked-in-the-head Muslim fundamentalists and just plain Muslims.

Thus, there is no problem with the mosque itself. The problem is with many Americans, and their current inability to understand what group is really responsible for the 9/11 attack. They fail at distinguishing an apple from an orange.

This is very similar to someone in the tribal region between Pakistan and Afghanistan having their family destroyed by some missile attack and then holding me directly responsible for this. I in no way have anything to do with CIA missile strikes in that tribal region, and neither are nearly all Muslims and even Islam responsible for the 9/11 attack.

In actuality, those who are against this seem as fanatical as those Islamic fundamentalists.

Oh, I see. So this was really not a thread about wanting to know what the problem was building a mosque close to the remains of the WTC attacks from 9/11. It was nothing more than using a thread as a platform to label other people as having the "inability to understand."

Can we also get into why this guy names his shit "Cordoba"? Gabon already did a good thread on this

We could, but then some liberal will start a separate thread when backed into a corner because they don't want to "confuse a separate issue" with this one. Just like in the homosexual marriage thread.

[Metsfanmax]

So based on the above to responses, it seems that people have difficulty in distinguishing between radical, fucked-in-the-head Muslim fundamentalists and just plain Muslims.

Thus, there is no problem with the mosque itself. The problem is with many Americans, and their current inability to understand what group is really responsible for the 9/11 attack. They fail at distinguishing an apple from an orange.

This is very similar to someone in the tribal region between Pakistan and Afghanistan having their family destroyed by some missile attack and then holding me directly responsible for this. I in no way have anything to do with CIA missile strikes in that tribal region, and neither are nearly all Muslims and even Islam responsible for the 9/11 attack.

In actuality, those who are against this seem as fanatical as those Islamic fundamentalists.

Oh, I see. So this was really not a thread about wanting to know what the problem was building a mosque close to the remains of the WTC attacks from 9/11. It was nothing more than using a thread as a platform to label other people as having the "inability to understand."

Yes. I figured that out about a minute after it was posted, and it's why I reported the thread to be locked. I guess the mods didn't agree though.

[jonesthecurl]

will add, if they build it, I will also support it and wish them the best, and smile if I hear a good story, if the mosque is built.

Before hand, while I have a say, just as in the Iraq war, I am against it.

Someone here claimed it's not going to be a mosque which would be a church. This would be more like a YMCA.

Try and build one of those in Syria though. I would be interested to see if you could go to the permit office with a proposal to build a Young men's christian association and survive. I don't know who's been to a Y in the last couple of decades but they are hardly a church.

I'm pretty sure you are dead by the time you say "I was hoping to get a permit to build a Christian Chu.......gurgle gurgle"

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/11310

[Woodruff]

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean something is proper.

Of course, this is certainly true.

Another example is the right of free speech. Most people will strongly agree to that and support it. But people who stand within sight of grieving families who are buying their loved ones killed in the service to their country with signs saying that their deaths was a good thing and they deserved it is clearly not appropriate and most people will agree that this is not the place nor the time to have such expressions.

Here's my view of this particular aspect...let me use a real example that I think we can both agree is extremely inappropriate...the Westboro Baptist Church. I freaking DESPISE these people and if I were personally in an area where they were, I might well get arrested for doing my part to shut them up. But that's on a personal level. On a governmental level, I recognize that they must be allowed to spew their...inappropriateness...and I must simply trust the American public to recognize them for the turds that they are. Which thankfully, the American public does. So even though I personally would prefer to have the Westboro Baptist Church forced to remain away from those circumstances which they seem to be drawn to, I recognize that if that were to actually happen, it would be a disservice to what our nation stands for.

So I don't really disagree with what you're saying. But I think that it has to be viewed from the perspective of our Constitution, rather than from the perspective of sensibilities and appropriateness.

That’s the big problem. People want to throw a “religious liberty” argument over it as though there are no other factors to consider.

Ultimately, there aren't any other factors that MUST be considered. I would agree that it would be NICE for those involved to consider things such as "how the victims' families feel about it", but at the same time I would like to think that they HAVE considered those things. I think they probably have, simply out of self-interest and security considerations.

[jonesthecurl]

btw exactly where was this

the spot where we bombed and killed Osama Bin Laden

?

[bradleybadly]

Yes. I figured that out about a minute after it was posted, and it's why I reported the thread to be locked. I guess the mods didn't agree though.

Let me be clear then (where have we heard that line used before)

The point raised in the original post was that what's the problem with the building of the mosque near the remains of the WTC attacks from 9/11 since they have the legal right to do so. The problem is that it is extremely insensitive to the memories of those murdered on 9/11. The problem is that it is deliberately provoking pain and heartache towards their families. They are specifically opening up on 9/11/11. They are naming it Cordoba House for a reason.

If you take other moments of tragedy from American history and built memorials, cultural centers, or statues near where the tragedy took place it would be insensitive at best.

[Woodruff]

will add, if they build it, I will also support it and wish them the best, and smile if I hear a good story, if the mosque is built.

Before hand, while I have a say, just as in the Iraq war, I am against it.

Someone here claimed it's not going to be a mosque which would be a church. This would be more like a YMCA.

Try and build one of those in Syria though. I would be interested to see if you could go to the permit office with a proposal to build a Young men's christian association and survive. I don't know who's been to a Y in the last couple of decades but they are hardly a church.

I'm pretty sure you are dead by the time you say "I was hoping to get a permit to build a Christian Chu.......gurgle gurgle"

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/11310

But that cannot be!

[Metsfanmax]

Yes. I figured that out about a minute after it was posted, and it's why I reported the thread to be locked. I guess the mods didn't agree though.

Let me be clear then (where have we heard that line used before)

The point raised in the original post was that what's the problem with the building of the mosque near the remains of the WTC attacks from 9/11 since they have the legal right to do so. The problem is that it is extremely insensitive to the memories of those murdered on 9/11. The problem is that it is deliberately provoking pain and heartache towards their families. They are specifically opening up on 9/11/11. They are naming it Cordoba House for a reason.

If you take other moments of tragedy from American history and built memorials, cultural centers, or statues near where the tragedy took place it would be insensitive at best.

Okay, but, we have two other threads where those points have already been made. This thread was made just so he could take a jab at people he disagrees with.

[porkenbeans]

Agreed.

"Shalom, I would like to build a YMCA."
Clerk, "What this is? Y,M,C,A"
"It's a great place with a pool and gym some books."
Clerk, "No, I mean what Y,M,C,A?"
"Oh, it's, young men's christian a- aaaaiiiaaarghe-gurgle-gurgle."

So what does any of these suppositions have to do with the price of rice in China ?
Is this some kind of argument that the USA should act like this, ...just because they do ?

If this is so, then why please tell me, do you think that the USA is better than everyone else. If you say it is because we have Freedom of religion, then you would have a good argument. But if you say we should do such and such because they do, then your argument would not hold any water. And your reasons therefore, would tell me that you are in actuality, just some kind of racist, that believes that you are better, because of your superior race and creed.

[2dimes]

will add, if they build it, I will also support it and wish them the best, and smile if I hear a good story, if the mosque is built.

Before hand, while I have a say, just as in the Iraq war, I am against it.

Someone here claimed it's not going to be a mosque which would be a church. This would be more like a YMCA.

Try and build one of those in Syria though. I would be interested to see if you could go to the permit office with a proposal to build a Young men's christian association and survive. I don't know who's been to a Y in the last couple of decades but they are hardly a church.

I'm pretty sure you are dead by the time you say "I was hoping to get a permit to build a Christian Chu.......gurgle gurgle"

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/11310

But that cannot be!

Jones, they seem to have spelled Syria wrong in the article.

Have you guys had a chance to see that cover on "Time" recently. There's a hillarious picture of a Muslem woman on it. Talk about laugh out loud, oh man what a hoot! They photoshopped her nose off and are trying to say some terrible things about peacefull religions.

Do you notice unlike tzor and a couple more of them murdering Catholic crusaders that wander in to defend their church. There has not been any post like...

I have never harmed anyone. I love you guys even if you're infidels.

[bradleybadly]

Okay, but, we have two other threads where those points have already been made. This thread was made just so he could take a jab at people he disagrees with.

QFT

[2dimes]

Agreed.

"Shalom, I would like to build a YMCA."
Clerk, "What this is? Y,M,C,A"
"It's a great place with a pool and gym some books."
Clerk, "No, I mean what Y,M,C,A?"
"Oh, it's, young men's christian a- aaaaiiiaaarghe-gurgle-gurgle."

So what does any of these suppositions have to do with the price of rice in China ?
Is this some kind of argument that the USA should act like this, ...just because they do ?

If this is so, then why please tell me, do you think that the USA is better than everyone else. If you say it is because we have Freedom of religion, then you would have a good argument. But if you say we should do such and such because they do, then your argument would not hold any water. And your reasons therefore, would tell me that you are in actuality, just some kind of racist, that believes that you are better, because of your superior race and creed.

I don't think the USA is better than everyone else. I like France better and they do not have Freedom of religion, the government there only allows the Catholics to legaly practice. I'm sure you knew that though.

I'm pointing out the FACT that you couldn't have these arguments in a lot of the places that are under the rule of Islam because it's real life day to present day violent. There are places where you can still actually get beheaded or stoned to DEATH for having a bible! There wouldn't be a debate about "Is it ok to build a YMCA?" where everyone's calling it a Cathedral. You'd be lucky to get out of prison alive to be deported.

You don't even know enough to point out the fact I might have been killed and gurgling at the first word for talking like a Jew.

Then people actually think they are being honest to them selves by saying things to compare three distinctly different religions that are present in various regions through out the world. Even if one's an offshoot from another they are very distinct, more so than the sects that divide within.

"Well sir, it's just like them Jews and Christians with their crusades. In fact the Christians are much worse, I've never been woke up on Saturday by a Muslem at my door!"

The reason I know and speak with actual lebonese people that live here, two specifically that are great guys I would trust with my children and wallet, whom are dissapointing their moms by droping the family religion, is because the familys decided to flee a country so their children wouldn't have to live in such a place where surviving is difficult. I guess part of that is Jews fighting Hamas even though it's a fact I pointed out that the Israelis are far more secular than the Lebonese.

Sure I know lots of Italians who's grandparents came here also but it was because they could get a job and buy a house after WW II not because they feared their kids being killed. They brought their violent religion and built Cathedrals too. I think you've probably been inside one and I think far fewer people here have been inside a Mosque because you have no business being in there.

[Bork9128]

to be clear the mosque is not at ground zero it is two blocks away

It's one block away (WTC 7)

no it is two blocks away

the terrorists were muslims but the actions of few do not define all no where in the Quran
does it say to kill innocent people because you dont like them

Yes it does you ignorant fool..

It instructs murder or conversion of everyone who is not a Muslim, Christian, or Jew, and of Christians and Jews who do not submit to Islamic supremacy. This has been well covered and cited in these forums.

I just love it when people claim to be knowledgeable on the topic of the Koran and in the next breath unequivocally demonstrate their ignorance.

no it condemns any non defensive aggression throughout the quran which is why so many muslim nations joined the coalition against Saddam Hussein in the first gulf war

there are several version and translations of the quran some seem to encourage murdering non believers in war and others condemn it but all versions say to never kill the completely Innocent no matter their religion

even so the bible says the same things

Deuteronomy 17:12 Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

does that mean jews and christians are encouraged to murder non believers

the us in no way deserved 9/11 but the reason Osama and Al-Qaeda hate the west is our fault

we gave them the weapons money and training they're using back when they were fight russia and promised to help Afghanistan rebuild

after the war afganistan had lost 1/3 of it whole population nearly all of its farmland and was the 4th least developed country in the world and we backed out our promise to help rebuild and left it to paskistan who promptly took advantage of the situation and used afghanistan to grow and smuggle drugs

and soon civil war started again which is why the country is so unstable

First off, you're confusing the Taliban with Al Qaeda. We armed the Taliban in the 80's. Al Qaeda attacked the United States on 9/11..

Second, the reason they gave for the attack wasn't that we stopped supporting their allies in Afghanistan. Their justification for attacking the US was that dirty infidel Americans set foot on their sacred Arabian peninsula (with the consent of the Saudi government nonetheless) during the Gulf War.

al qaeda was a part of the taliban during the war so we were helping them

but we need to look at why osama hated us even before the first gulf war but not during the soviet afghan war the only thing the US did in the middle east at that time was stop helping Afghanistan after the war

but i may wrong i dont pretend to know the mind of a psychopath

[2dimes]

does that mean jews and christians are encouraged to murder non believers

Obviously! You know it's no different from when you take your doves to the synogoge for having touched a woman that's menstrating.

[rdsrds2120]

This is personally one of my biggest pet peeves with most religions and their holy books, and that is that most people only live by the parts of their respective book when it's 'convenient'. For example, the frowning upon of homosexuality. Yes, the bible does say, clearly, in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is an abomination. It also says that there is no other god than the Christian god. Wonderful, now I was thinking of selling my sister into the slave trade, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a hard worker, good at school. Any of you know a good price for her?
While thinking about that, my mom worked last Sunday. Now, am I actually morally obligated to kill her myself as defined in Exodus 35:2? Or should I call the police to do it for me? Does the whole town really have to come to my house to watch me be stoned because I planted two different crops side by side?...Can I burn my own mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Clearly, the answer is no. Just as the Karan has some crazy things in it, so does the bible.

So, with all that said - who is anyone to say that the Mosque can't be built because it's 'unethical', or 'nonreligious' (even though we aren't supposed to even make decisions based on religion as stated by the first amendment, but who uses that anymore right?) . By saying it's not proper, you aren't actually giving a good reason. How is it not proper? Did the televangelists that just so happened to hear it was a bad, bad thing, therefore it is? Or is it not proper, because saying it isn't, like quoting the bible, is convenient at the time? The right to build it is there. They want to. They can do it.

[Metsfanmax]

This is personally one of my biggest pet peeves with most religions and their holy books, and that is that most people only live by the parts of their respective book when it's 'convenient'. For example, the frowning upon of homosexuality. Yes, the bible does say, clearly, in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is an abomination. It also says that there is no other god than the Christian god. Wonderful, now I was thinking of selling my sister into the slave trade, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a hard worker, good at school. Any of you know a good price for her?
While thinking about that, my mom worked last Sunday. Now, am I actually morally obligated to kill her myself as defined in Exodus 35:2? Or should I call the police to do it for me? Does the whole town really have to come to my house to watch me be stoned because I planted two different crops side by side?...Can I burn my own mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Clearly, the answer is no. Just as the Karan has some crazy things in it, so does the bible.

Really? You're going to steal that without any recognition at all?

[Phatscotty]

*Sigh* Guys, no matter how much you personally support this, there are still going to be people out there arguing against this. Why? America's base was the Puritans who fled from England to be able to practice their own religion in peace. As a result, much of the conservative base believes that America is supposed to be the shining example of God's will on Earth, rather than the free country that the Constitution states (Anyone see the irony there?). As a result, when the issue is in line with the Bible, they'll use the Constitution to support it, but when it's not, they ditch the Constitution and try to appeal to "the way it is meant to be".

America rejects Sharia Law

[Phatscotty]

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

It's a tasteless choice. This is akin to opening a German pride center across from or on top of a concentration camp.

A decent person with pure intentions that wanted to bridge the gap between cultures wouldn't take these kinds of actions.

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

The Caliphs in Spain may have tolerated the existence of Christians and Jews (as the Koran commands) but Christians and Jews were still treated as second class citizens (as the Koran commands). What's more, you just made all of that up with no evidence of it being correct. There are patterns of behavior which exist in Islamic culture. Building on top of conquered ground has been standard practice in Islam for 1300 years.

Tolerance is only ever extended, if it's extended, after there is perception of Islamic supremacy in a society. The construction of this mosque at the chosen location with the chosen name is seen and heard throughout the Islamic world as a step towards that end and this Imam knows that to be the case. I've seen no evidence of internal dialogue (internal being the key word) which shows that he's trying to encourage legitimate reform.

There's no indication that the people involved have made any effort to extend tolerance to other groups. We do know that this Imam has tried to rationalize the actions of the 9/11 terrorists and that he refuses to condemn a number of terrorist organizations. He's been shown to be preaching questionable things when he speaks in Arabic as well.

Like I said, LOCATION. 3-11 train bombings in Madrid was a choice of location. That marked the furthest westward advance of the Islamic Caliphate. They bombed in Madrid because of what the symbolizes.

[rdsrds2120]

This is personally one of my biggest pet peeves with most religions and their holy books, and that is that most people only live by the parts of their respective book when it's 'convenient'. For example, the frowning upon of homosexuality. Yes, the bible does say, clearly, in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is an abomination. It also says that there is no other god than the Christian god. Wonderful, now I was thinking of selling my sister into the slave trade, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a hard worker, good at school. Any of you know a good price for her?
While thinking about that, my mom worked last Sunday. Now, am I actually morally obligated to kill her myself as defined in Exodus 35:2? Or should I call the police to do it for me? Does the whole town really have to come to my house to watch me be stoned because I planted two different crops side by side?...Can I burn my own mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Clearly, the answer is no. Just as the Karan has some crazy things in it, so does the bible.

Really? You're going to steal that without any recognition at all?

I didn't think anyone else watched it, lol. I ask everyone I know in real life and they do nothing but look at me stupid. hahah. I <3 West Wing

[Phatscotty]

to be clear the mosque is not at ground zero it is two blocks away

It's one block away (WTC 7)

I wonder if after this mosque is opened, all of a sudden billions of dollars of donations are flooding in to purchase the next city block, and build a grand mosque skyscraper, 150 stories high, (say, in the year 2020?) overlooking ground zero and most likely higher than the freedom towers.
I understand this is unrealistic. I also understand money talks. I further understand there are millions of Muslims who would donate heavily to see something like this...

[Phatscotty]

even so the bible says the same things

Deuteronomy 17:12 Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

does that mean jews and christians are encouraged to murder non believers

doh! How about this for a concept. Show me WHERE christians and jews are doing these things.

I will offer Nicolas Berg and Richard Perle, and numerous other beheadings, as evidence Muslims DO ACT this way. Can we move past your little theories and look at reality? give it a shot will you not?

[Bork9128]

even so the bible says the same things

Deuteronomy 17:12 Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

does that mean jews and christians are encouraged to murder non believers

doh! How about this for a concept. Show me WHERE christians and jews are doing these things.

I will offer Nicolas Berg and Richard Perle, and numerous other beheadings, as evidence Muslims DO ACT this way. Can we move past your little theories and look at reality? give it a shot will you not?

ok les start will the old ones you

the crusades
inquisition
need i remind you of the the holocaust

how about something more recent

the Irish civil war between the Catholics and Protestants

in 1995 Army of Republika Srpska consisting of mostly members of the Serbian orthodox church murdered over 8,000 Bosniak Muslims and 25,000 -30,000 other refuges worst case of genocide since the holocost

or earlier this year in Nigeria when a group of christains marched into the town of Jos and murdered over 150 muslims including two dozen children and burned many of the houses and mosques to the ground



christians still murder others because of faith we just seem to turn a blind eye to them and dismiss them

[PoleDancer]

yes, please, especially recent. However, I was not expecting you to go beyond the realms of your initial parameters, as defined by your quotes of Duderonomy....etc. ie, examples where C's n J's are using the bible violently, as you pointed out