WTC and a Mosque

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.
User avatar
heavycola
Posts: 2925
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Maailmanvalloittajat

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by heavycola »

phatscotty wrote:It is akin to Christians building a church across from the spot where we bombed and killed Osama Bin Laden. Oh wait, if someone tried to build a church there (anywhere) in the Muslim world, the people would be killed on the spot, dragged through the streets, beheaded for fun, and any work on the church that was completed would immediately be burnt to the ground.
like... the orthodox cathedral in Tehran?

Or... St Patrick's Cathedral, Karachi?

Jakarta RC Cathedral?

Dos your ignorance really prevent you from doing the most cursory of checks before you start spouting bile?
Image
User avatar
Phatscotty
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Phatscotty »

heavycola wrote:
phatscotty wrote:It is akin to Christians building a church across from the spot where we bombed and killed Osama Bin Laden. Oh wait, if someone tried to build a church there (anywhere) in the Muslim world, the people would be killed on the spot, dragged through the streets, beheaded for fun, and any work on the church that was completed would immediately be burnt to the ground.
like... the orthodox cathedral in Tehran?

Or... St Patrick's Cathedral, Karachi?

Jakarta RC Cathedral?

Dos your ignorance really prevent you from doing the most cursory of checks before you start spouting bile?
which place did UBL die in? I was relating it to 9-11, which is.....pertinent here....

Can you fathom "hypothetical"?
User avatar
2dimes
Posts: 13171
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Pepperoni Hug Spot.

Post by 2dimes »

That one's my fault Heavy. I started the whole, "Do you think you could build xian stuff in Syria?" thing.

You have to understand we can't all afford to travel to Canader to see what other cultures are like nevermind going to a couple of middle east places to enjoy some of by far the best food in the world and learn some of their differences.

I was working with a Lebonese guy that told me how terrible Syria was, he could have at least pretended to be muslem, he did express a dislike for the Jews.

I'd like to scope it out for myself sometime, I'm going to have to leave my wife and daughter off the guest list for that one. Probably leave the travelling bible home too.
tzor
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by tzor »

rdsrds2120 wrote:This is personally one of my biggest pet peeves with most religions and their holy books, and that is that most people only live by the parts of their respective book when it's 'convenient'. For example, the frowning upon of homosexuality. Yes, the bible does say, clearly, in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is an abomination.
But (if we are talking about this from a proper "Christian" perspective) the basic Christian argument is that Jesus is the fufillment of the "Law" and that as a result we are no longer bound by it. This is why if you look at the Roman Catholic Church's position on homosexuality you will not see a Leviticus argument (hetrosexual relationships with a menstruating woman was equally an abomination by the way). Instead it is based on the positivie argument of Christian Marriage and arguments based on "natural law."

Some protestants, on the other hand, suffer from the "Scripture Only" effect; they feel they can't say anything unless they are quoting some part of scripture. Unfortunately, they often take that part out of context or out of th larger Christian context.
Image
User avatar
oVo
Posts: 3858
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Antarctica

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by oVo »

Baron Von PWN wrote:Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.
I only waded through this thread up to Baron's post... and he sums it up well. If there is a legitimate problem? It is the ignorance of people who manage to repeat half cocked rhetoric and extrapolate the half truths they have heard while never bothering to research the facts themselves. 9/11 still upsets me, yet I have no problem with a mosque or Muslim community center being built near ground zero if they possess the resources to do it.

By the logic of a few dissenters here, after WWII there should not be any Germans allowed to reside outside of Germany and particularly in Poland, Holland or France etc. Then again a curious fact about that global tragedy was the number of participants of German decent who fought against the Third Reich.
User avatar
rdsrds2120
Posts: 6274
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:42 am
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by rdsrds2120 »

tzor wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:This is personally one of my biggest pet peeves with most religions and their holy books, and that is that most people only live by the parts of their respective book when it's 'convenient'. For example, the frowning upon of homosexuality. Yes, the bible does say, clearly, in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is an abomination.
But (if we are talking about this from a proper "Christian" perspective) the basic Christian argument is that Jesus is the fufillment of the "Law" and that as a result we are no longer bound by it. This is why if you look at the Roman Catholic Church's position on homosexuality you will not see a Leviticus argument (hetrosexual relationships with a menstruating woman was equally an abomination by the way). Instead it is based on the positivie argument of Christian Marriage and arguments based on "natural law."

Some protestants, on the other hand, suffer from the "Scripture Only" effect; they feel they can't say anything unless they are quoting some part of scripture. Unfortunately, they often take that part out of context or out of th larger Christian context.
That was just an example, but your argument further supports mine about how certain ideas/belief can be conveniently pulled from the bible or not kept in. Even so, the marriage thing is still perceived differently by a ton of catholic leaders, I remember just not too long ago in my town a priest was telling his service anyone who wasn't married under a catholic rule was invalid, and had been living in an adulterated state. In the big picture though, my question for arguments like that is - who cares? Anyone can go to a number of people and get told that they're sinning to no end, and it's not going to matter because most people aren't going to change their lives to revolve around it anyway.

Anyway, back to the mosque think. It should be built. Let's stay on topic :twisted:
User avatar
BigBallinStalin
Posts: 5071
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Contact:

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by BigBallinStalin »

GabonX wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?
It's a tasteless choice. This is akin to opening a German pride center across from or on top of a concentration camp.

A decent person with pure intentions that wanted to bridge the gap between cultures wouldn't take these kinds of actions.
Right, let's just take it from there.

Don't you agree that you yourself are failing to distinguish between Islamic fundamentalists who engage in suicide bombing AND the overwhelming majority of Muslims who in way follow the fucked-up Islamic version of those suicide bombers?
tzor
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by tzor »

BigBallinStalin wrote:Don't you agree that you yourself are failing to distinguish between Islamic fundamentalists who engage in suicide bombing AND the overwhelming majority of Muslims who in way follow the fucked-up Islamic version of those suicide bombers?
The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not building this mosque. P.S. I think you forgot a "no" somewhere in there. Note that the current Imam in charge of this project is a direct supporter of Hammas (who still want to eliminate the state of Israel completely off of the map) who routinely throws rockets into Israel in order to kill as many civilians as possible. It is supported by very wealthy Saudi Arabians who were the principal source for the radical Islam that breed those 9/11 attackers.

You are also forgetting the Muslims who lost loved ones in 9/11, who are among those who are calling for this to be someplace else, who know that instead of building bridges between Muslims and non Muslims this will open a gaping wound and allow hate to fester between the faiths.
Image
User avatar
Phatscotty
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Phatscotty »

oVo wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.
I only waded through this thread up to Baron's post... and he sums it up well. If there is a legitimate problem? It is the ignorance of people who manage to repeat half cocked rhetoric and extrapolate the half truths they have heard while never bothering to research the facts themselves. 9/11 still upsets me, yet I have no problem with a mosque or Muslim community center being built near ground zero if they possess the resources to do it.

By the logic of a few dissenters here, after WWII there should not be any Germans allowed to reside outside of Germany and particularly in Poland, Holland or France etc. Then again a curious fact about that global tragedy was the number of participants of German decent who fought against the Third Reich.
for the third time, Cordoba symbolic importance is geographic. The current debate is also one of geography. Try that context and start over.
User avatar
Maugena
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:07 pm
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Maugena »

#1. Building a Mosque near 'ground zero' is perfectly acceptable. All nay-sayers are ignorant and should be ignored. You tread on the rights of individuals when you tell them you can't build X at place Y because a different group of people that are only associated with them through the same base religion caused some tragedy at place Y. Guilty by association? That's like saying you're a criminal because you were a friend of a person that murdered someone even though you had absolutely nothing to do with the actual crime. Congratulations, you've been fucked sideways by retarded logic.
#2. I don't really know why any Muslim organisation would push for the construction of anything near 'ground zero' simply because ignorant people take an issue with it. That's like inciting violence. It is very possible that is the exact reason for the construction, and if so, that is very deconstructive in terms of the relationship between the ignorant and the Muslim community.
#3. Bottom line... The ignorant need to be educated and shut the f*ck up... and you shouldn't incite violence.

bradleybadly wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?
There is no problem. We should also build a statue of James Earl Ray close to the Lorraine Motel. In this country, freedom of expression should not be repressed no matter how insensitive it may seem.
Are you serious?
The two scenarios (the question at hand and the one you portrayed) are only slightly alike.
The one you mentioned is actually a hateful proposition.
Metsfanmax wrote:Are you really so naive as to not understand what the problem is? Or are you just making a point by pretending to be ignorant?
Mets. Stop.
The ones that are ignorant are the ones that see a 'problem'.
The ones that are educated understand why this is not an issue.
Phatscotty wrote:Pork,I agree you are playing right into their hands. The muslims are going forgive Christians for the Crusades around the same time descendants of slaves will forgive America for Slavery... Not gonna happen
I love this argument.
You're going to take up century(+) year old conflicts because you are affiliated with one of the sides in said conflicts.
You are not affected directly by any atrocities committed in the past, but you make it your own regardless.
MAEKZ SENS RIYT?
Oh hey, that reminds me.
America was not the only country that had slaves. Why aren't you speaking for all slaves ever?
Do slave descendants in England hold a grudge against England?
Do slave descendants of the Jews in Egypt hold a grudge against Egypt?
Should all of the slave descendants of the slaves in the Roman Empire hold a grudge against descendants of all of Europe?
Seriously, where do we draw the line?
Yes, people were hurt for generations upon generations.
Does that mean that we can't move on? No.
Renewed yet infused with apathy.
Let's just have a good time, all right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjQii_BboIk
User avatar
Baron Von PWN
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:05 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Capital region ,Canada

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Baron Von PWN »

tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Don't you agree that you yourself are failing to distinguish between Islamic fundamentalists who engage in suicide bombing AND the overwhelming majority of Muslims who in way follow the fucked-up Islamic version of those suicide bombers?
The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not building this mosque. P.S. I think you forgot a "no" somewhere in there. Note that the current Imam in charge of this project is a direct supporter of Hammas (who still want to eliminate the state of Israel completely off of the map) who routinely throws rockets into Israel in order to kill as many civilians as possible. It is supported by very wealthy Saudi Arabians who were the principal source for the radical Islam that breed those 9/11 attackers.

You are also forgetting the Muslims who lost loved ones in 9/11, who are among those who are calling for this to be someplace else, who know that instead of building bridges between Muslims and non Muslims this will open a gaping wound and allow hate to fester between the faiths.
Um sorry Tzor but the Imam just said he wouldn't necessarily call Hamas a terrorist group. That isn't the same as a direct supporter.
User avatar
Maugena
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:07 pm
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Maugena »

GabonX wrote:It's a tasteless choice. This is akin to opening a German pride center across from or on top of a concentration camp.
It is not tasteless. While it may be 'akin to opening a German pride center across from or on top of a concentration camp', the 'German pride center' would absolutely NOT include ANY HINT OF Nazism.
In case you didn't know, Nazi Germany became a dictatorship. Only those in power with 'evil' intentions and the brainwashed/silenced remained. If you were a citizen in Nazi Germany, it doesn't necessarily mean that you encouraged the torturing of Jews... unless you were brainwashed. In fact, a lot of them had absolutely no knowledge of that at all.
You should go watch the history channel so you can understand this if you don't know about it.
Also, a number of the families that had relatives die there are probably German too.
Might I also add that pride in your country does not have to include generations outside of your own?
GabonX wrote:A decent person with pure intentions that wanted to bridge the gap between cultures wouldn't take these kinds of actions.
I only agree with this because the act of constructing this building would possibly incite violence amongst the ignorant and the Muslim community. Outside of that, it is perfectly fine.
Renewed yet infused with apathy.
Let's just have a good time, all right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjQii_BboIk
User avatar
Metsfanmax
Posts: 6619
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Metsfanmax »

Maugena wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Are you really so naive as to not understand what the problem is? Or are you just making a point by pretending to be ignorant?
Mets. Stop.
The ones that are ignorant are the ones that see a 'problem'.
The ones that are educated understand why this is not an issue.
It's unfortunate when people confuse is with ought. I thought Hume set us straight on that one.
tzor
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by tzor »

Baron Von PWN wrote:Um sorry Tzor but the Imam just said he wouldn't necessarily call Hamas a terrorist group. That isn't the same as a direct supporter.
Bullshit. That's support. The group calls for the destruction of Israel. The group constatly attacks civilian populations. To deny the obvious (especially since it is officially listed as a terrorist organization by the United States) is to give credibility to them and that is support. Plain and simple.
Image
User avatar
Johnny Rockets
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Contact:

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Johnny Rockets »

Completly Stolen From Cracked
Original Author: Gladstone
Original Artice: http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-t ... -no-sense/


But a good little read non-the-less:


I don’t usually write about politics. It’s important, but something I want no part of – kind of like a raw sewage treatment facility. But frankly, I haven’t been this upset in a long time. And it’s due to the logic-hating, herd-mentality rhetoric that some have been flinging in opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque.” For the uninitiated, there are plans to construct an Islamic Community center in lower Manhattan. And, of course, lower Manhattan is where the World Trade Center stood before terrorists destroyed it, thereby murdering 3,000 Americans. I was working in New York City at the time. As was my father. As was my pregnant wife. I remember the day well. And the days that followed. I think most of all, I remember standing on the Staten Island Ferry, coming home with 200 other silent, reverent New Yorkers of every age, race, and religion, as we watched our city still smoldering a full week later. And it is with this backdrop that I can say to every politician spouting off and opposing the construction of this Islamic community center: “Shut up. Go away. You hate America.”

I’m talking about people like professional political tumor, Newt Gingrich, and future worst President ever, Sarah Palin, who have both slammed supporters of the Islamic community center with rhetoric so flawed, I’m afraid even linking to it might impair your computer’s higher functioning circuits. But it’s not just them. Due to the wave of misinformation being spread, apparently 68% of Americans also oppose the mosque.

How did this happen? Well, basically a complacent or a complicit media helped perpetuate three ideas that are either outright lies or intellectually dishonest arguments designed to bring out the very worst in all of us. And as you continue to hear them–and you will–take out this column which you will have already printed and laminated, and recite thusly:

1. It’s Not at Ground Zero
The proposed structure is not on the hallowed ground of the former World Trade Center. It’s at an abandoned and private building blocks away that used to be the Burlington Coat Factory. That means that if every one of the “g’s” that Sarah Palin drops when she’s talkin’ folksy were 10 by10 feet large, you could still stack over 120 of them from Ground Zero to this community center. Easy.

That sort of makes all the difference, doesn’t it? I know, when I first heard they were building a mosque at Ground Zero, I literally said, “What the f*ck.” Like out loud and everything. I didn’t even pull a “WTF” despite years of writing for the Internet. That’s because for the last nine years, we New Yorkers have listened to countless proposals and plans and ideas of how to best rebuild the area while honoring the memories of those who died. And suddenly it seemed we were being told, “Yep, it’s all decided. Mosque. We want a mosque here. Just feels right.”

So yeah, of course, no one was on board. That just made no sense. What happened to that proposed waterfall and wall of names? Nothing happened. Because no one was ever building a mosque on that site. It’s just a lie that was told to you by people who wanted you to be afraid, upset, and hurt. People who wanted to manipulate your tender emotions to inspire contempt for the government. It’s about as intellectually dishonest as manipulating debate footage to make it appear that “Drill, baby, drill” is Sarah Palin’s stance on partial birth abortions. It’s just wrong.

And to those who say that any location in lower Manhattan is too close for a Muslim structure, let me remind you that right now, in the shadow of what would be the former World Trade Center, there’s a Halal Meat Hot Truck with a multi-denominational line that wraps around my building every day at lunch time. And I’m positive that’s owned by a Muslim. And I’ve even suffered at his hands. (Spoiler alert: avoid the goat rhoti). Should he move a few more blocks away too? Of course, not. That would just be silly, right? Is it different? Why? Because mosques are religious and the 911 terrorists perverted Islam into something violent and hateful? Guess what? Those knights did the same thing to Christianity for the 300 years of the Crusades, and no one’s saying that churches shouldn’t be built anywhere in … Europe.

2. It’s Not Strictly A Mosque
A mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it, do you? Well, maybe you do. You read about politics on the Internet from a guy who claims not to write about politics, so maybe you’re functionally illiterate. But the point is, you shouldn’t.

But “Islamic Community Center open to the public” doesn’t have the same ability to scare people the way “mosque” does. I mean, you hear “mosque” you think mosquito, you think STING! You hear “mosque” you think “mask,” you think DECEPTION! You hear “community center” you think “OK. One more place I’ll never go.” So, yeah, clearly the decision was made by those who hate you to call this the “Ground Zero Mosque” even though it’s not at Ground Zero and not technically a mosque. Why are we still discussing this? Why haven’t you already asked Sarah Palin if she’s the devil on her Twitter account? Oh, that’s right. Because the devil is supposed to be good at lying.

3. You Can’t Simultaneously Acknowledge A Right And Insist That Your Government Suppress It
But the real reason I’m writing is not just because of people like Sarah Palin, but because of shameful, spineless panderers like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Here’s a statement from each of them designed to give the appearance of being tolerant while adhering to good old-fashioned common sense values:

From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:

“We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”

And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:

While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid “thinks this mosque should be built some place else,” his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.

Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.

You can’t legally stop people from obeying the law.

The Burlington Coat factory is private property. Those who want to build on it are private citizens. They are violating no law in wanting to build a community center. Under what authority do you propose we stop them? There is no “unless you’re a Muslim within X yards of a national tragedy exception” to the free exercise of religion. Do the Gingrichs and Palins and Reids want to start a precedent where you can compel people not to exercise the freedoms guaranteed under our Constitution provided enough people don’t like you?

And what are we saying to Muslims? That if they were good Americans they would willingly give up their rights? I can’t think of anything less American than that? This is America. We do what we want. And all you have to do to have that right is be a citizen here. And if you’re a traitor, well then we will prosecute you for treason and penalize you for taking up arms against the greatest country in the world, but we will NOT start curtailing your freedoms based on mere speculation fueled by lies about what you’re building and where you’re building it.

In the days following 911 it was very popular to say that we couldn’t do anything differently in America or “the terrorists would win.” We can’t stop driving gas guzzling cars. We can’t stop supporting dictators in other parts of the world for financial or political gain. We can’t vote for a Democrat. Most of that was rhetoric. Some of it was probably true. But one thing is definitely true: if we ask our leaders to start dishonoring the freedoms that make this country great, the terrorists surely will have won. And I don’t want to see that. Because unlike those with power and influence who would lie to you, I love America.


Cheers!

Johnny Rockets
User avatar
heavycola
Posts: 2925
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Maailmanvalloittajat

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by heavycola »

tzor wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:Um sorry Tzor but the Imam just said he wouldn't necessarily call Hamas a terrorist group. That isn't the same as a direct supporter.
Bullshit. That's support. The group calls for the destruction of Israel. The group constatly attacks civilian populations. To deny the obvious (especially since it is officially listed as a terrorist organization by the United States) is to give credibility to them and that is support. Plain and simple.
Other groups that constantly attack civilian populations:

The US-led coalition in Iraq

The Israeli army

I'm not condoning anyone attacking civilians, but according to your logic, the coalition and Israel are both terrorist organisations. Or are they fighting for something they believe in, too? Don't be so disingenuous, dude - since when have government classifications meant shit to anyone with a brain?

'to deny the obvious is to give credibility to them and that is support.'
Jesus christ, this is depressing stuff. America Good! Arabs Bad! And anyone who deviates from this line of reasoning is either a terrorist or a sympathiser! BECAUSE THE WORLD IS BOTH PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
Image
User avatar
thegreekdog
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Gender: Male
Location: Philadelphia

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by thegreekdog »

So, heavycola, is your definition of terrorism "anyone attacking civilians?" Because I don't think that was tzor's definition.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror and the deliberate targetting of civilians intended to create fear for religious, political, etc. reasons.

Does the United States deliberately target civilians? Does Israel? Does Hammas?
Image
User avatar
porkenbeans
Posts: 2546
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by porkenbeans »

thegreekdog wrote:So, heavycola, is your definition of terrorism "anyone attacking civilians?" Because I don't think that was tzor's definition.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror and the deliberate targetting of civilians intended to create fear for religious, political, etc. reasons.

Does the United States deliberately target civilians? Does Israel? Does Hammas?
Look up Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Terrorism works. It has been used throughout human history.
Image
User avatar
thegreekdog
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Gender: Male
Location: Philadelphia

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by thegreekdog »

porkenbeans wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:So, heavycola, is your definition of terrorism "anyone attacking civilians?" Because I don't think that was tzor's definition.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror and the deliberate targetting of civilians intended to create fear for religious, political, etc. reasons.

Does the United States deliberately target civilians? Does Israel? Does Hammas?
Look up Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Terrorism works. It has been used throughout human history.
I can't find any of those things... shoud I use google?

EDIT - Also, how is terrorism working out right now? Hammas having some luck? How about Al Qaeda? Getting what they want, are they?
Image
User avatar
porkenbeans
Posts: 2546
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by porkenbeans »

thegreekdog wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:So, heavycola, is your definition of terrorism "anyone attacking civilians?" Because I don't think that was tzor's definition.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror and the deliberate targetting of civilians intended to create fear for religious, political, etc. reasons.

Does the United States deliberately target civilians? Does Israel? Does Hammas?
Look up Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Terrorism works. It has been used throughout human history.
I can't find any of those things... shoud I use google?

EDIT - Also, how is terrorism working out right now? Hammas having some luck? How about Al Qaeda? Getting what they want, are they?
Yes they are my friend. Osama's goal is to start a world war between Islam and the Infidels. Its final goal is to destroy the Religious freedom that we have at the core, of our form of government.
Image
User avatar
thegreekdog
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Gender: Male
Location: Philadelphia

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by thegreekdog »

porkenbeans wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:So, heavycola, is your definition of terrorism "anyone attacking civilians?" Because I don't think that was tzor's definition.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror and the deliberate targetting of civilians intended to create fear for religious, political, etc. reasons.

Does the United States deliberately target civilians? Does Israel? Does Hammas?
Look up Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Terrorism works. It has been used throughout human history.
I can't find any of those things... shoud I use google?

EDIT - Also, how is terrorism working out right now? Hammas having some luck? How about Al Qaeda? Getting what they want, are they?
Yes they are my friend. Osama's goal is to start a world war between Islam and the Infidels. Its final goal is to destroy the Religious freedom that we have at the core, of our form of government.
I thought the goal was not only to destroy religious freedom but to install one-religion theocracies (that one religion being Islam). Also, destroy Israel is one of those goals (at least that's what I've heard from my friends).

Your "terrorism works" statement should be "terrorism works sometimes."

I would also note that you mention "Dresden" as one of those terroristic acts. For the sake of argument, I will agree that the fire bombing of Dresden was the systematic use of fear to attack civilians (although some might say it was the systematic use of bombs to destroy industry). Did Germany surrender after that attack? Did Germany surrender because of that attack? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were absolutely terrorism and they absolutely "worked."
Image
User avatar
porkenbeans
Posts: 2546
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by porkenbeans »

Yes, the bombing of Dresden worked to demoralize the German people, which in turn, helped bolster the moral of the allies. Factories were NOT the target, and this action can be considered as evidence that Terrorism works. Weather or not it is true to say, that Terrorists are evil. That will continue to be debated. But what can not be debated is, that we all are guilty of using it from time to time. Why ? - Because IT WORKS.

The Patriot Act, is also an example of how terrorism works. The strike against our freedom on 911, is clearly manifest in this knee-jerk affront, to the very thing that defines us as GREAT. Their "terrorism" is working perfectly, in that it has showed us to be frightened little children, that would rather dismantle our own freedom in a misguided attempt to feel secure.

The Patriot Act IS the successful attack on us, not 911.

Those that would give up a little freedom for security, ...deserve neither. And IMHO, are the antithesis of patriots.
Image
tzor
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by tzor »

Muslim-born Miss USA says she opposes Ground Zero Islamic center
The reigning Miss USA has come out against the Ground Zero mosque, saying "it shouldn't be so close" to Ground Zero.

The 24-year-old Rima Fakih, is the first Muslim winner of the Miss USA contest and is preparing for the Miss Universe Pageant, scheduled for Monday in Las Vegas.

"I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on Constitutional rights of freedom of religion," Fakih told "Inside Edition" in an interview that will air tonight.

"I also agree that it shouldn't be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion."
Image
User avatar
thegreekdog
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Gender: Male
Location: Philadelphia

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by thegreekdog »

porkenbeans wrote:Yes, the bombing of Dresden worked to demoralize the German people, which in turn, helped bolster the moral of the allies. Factories were NOT the target, and this action can be considered as evidence that Terrorism works. Weather or not it is true to say, that Terrorists are evil. That will continue to be debated. But what can not be debated is, that we all are guilty of using it from time to time. Why ? - Because IT WORKS.

The Patriot Act, is also an example of how terrorism works. The strike against our freedom on 911, is clearly manifest in this knee-jerk affront, to the very thing that defines us as GREAT. Their "terrorism" is working perfectly, in that it has showed us to be frightened little children, that would rather dismantle our own freedom in a misguided attempt to feel secure.

The Patriot Act IS the successful attack on us, not 911.

Those that would give up a little freedom for security, ...deserve neither. And IMHO, are the antithesis of patriots.
I agree that the Patriot Act is the most pressing issue (other than the economy) right now. I thought the president would at least address this law, but apparently he has used it to an even greater extent than President Bush.
Image
User avatar
Maugena
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:07 pm
Gender: Male

Re: WTC and a Mosque

Post by Maugena »

tzor wrote:Muslim-born Miss USA says she opposes Ground Zero Islamic center
The reigning Miss USA has come out against the Ground Zero mosque, saying "it shouldn't be so close" to Ground Zero.

The 24-year-old Rima Fakih, is the first Muslim winner of the Miss USA contest and is preparing for the Miss Universe Pageant, scheduled for Monday in Las Vegas.

"I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on Constitutional rights of freedom of religion," Fakih told "Inside Edition" in an interview that will air tonight.

"I also agree that it shouldn't be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion."
What's the average IQ of beauty pageant candidates?
Not that this Miss USA is anywhere close to being as ignorant as this girl, but I thought I'd bring this up for shits and giggles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
But on a serious note, do you honestly believe we should heed the opinions of celebrities?
Tom Cruise was Catholic once, should you follow him into Scientology?
I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Renewed yet infused with apathy.
Let's just have a good time, all right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjQii_BboIk
Post Reply

Return to “Acceptable Content”