WTC and a Mosque

[porkenbeans]

Yes, the bombing of Dresden worked to demoralize the German people, which in turn, helped bolster the moral of the allies. Factories were NOT the target, and this action can be considered as evidence that Terrorism works. Weather or not it is true to say, that Terrorists are evil. That will continue to be debated. But what can not be debated is, that we all are guilty of using it from time to time. Why ? - Because IT WORKS.

The Patriot Act, is also an example of how terrorism works. The strike against our freedom on 911, is clearly manifest in this knee-jerk affront, to the very thing that defines us as GREAT. Their "terrorism" is working perfectly, in that it has showed us to be frightened little children, that would rather dismantle our own freedom in a misguided attempt to feel secure.

The Patriot Act IS the successful attack on us, not 911.

Those that would give up a little freedom for security, ...deserve neither. And IMHO, are the antithesis of patriots.

I agree that the Patriot Act is the most pressing issue (other than the economy) right now. I thought the president would at least address this law, but apparently he has used it to an even greater extent than President Bush.

I am with you on this one brother. I too am very, very, very disappointed that nothing has been done on this front. I imagine that he just does not want to touch this issue, because if we are hit again, it would hurt him politically. American mercenaries are also a very troubling issue, and one that he is quietly supporting as well. I sometimes feel that we are headed down the same path as the Nazis, with the Secret police being put into place as we sleep.

[InkL0sed]

“Shut up. Go away. You hate America.”

This is my first thought whenever I see a conservative opposing this.

Half the time I hear politicians like Sarah Palin speak (especially on a campaign), they talk to small-town Americans about how they're the "real Americans". This means to me: we city-folk are fake. We don't exist. Maybe we're really foreign invaders or something. Nothing insults me more in politics. I would rather vote for a turd than a person like Sarah Palin just for this kind of pandering. And whenever NYC is mentioned in these fora, half the conservatives go off about how much they hate the people there, and the city.

But when discussing 9/11, they're very angry about the loss of American lives! Suddenly, it's personal; it's as if they've been attacked, and they haven't been discussing how much they hate us and how much we liberals in our cities are poisoning America. To me, this contrast in rhetoric says they only like us when it gives them a reason to hate people who really aren't American.

And now they worry about being insensitive? Yeah right, give me a break. Mr. barunt showed his true colors when expressing his desire for an American to destroy this "mosque" by crashing an airplane into it. You guys don't care about the insensitivity to New Yorkers. So shut up, and f*ck off.

[thegreekdog]

Just a small clarifications - all politicians pander to middle America, regardless of political affiliation, including, but not limited to, our current president.

[InkL0sed]

Just a small clarifications - all politicians pander to middle America, regardless of political affiliation, including, but not limited to, our current president.

They don't all call them "the real America" though. That's something I only hear from politicians like Palin.

It's the way you do it that counts. I understand why nobody campaigns here - that's just rationality.

[Baron Von PWN]

Um sorry Tzor but the Imam just said he wouldn't necessarily call Hamas a terrorist group. That isn't the same as a direct supporter.

Bullshit. That's support. The group calls for the destruction of Israel. The group constatly attacks civilian populations. To deny the obvious (especially since it is officially listed as a terrorist organization by the United States) is to give credibility to them and that is support. Plain and simple.

Which still isn't the same as a direct supporter. It might indicate sympathy for Hamas and the Palestinians but not direct support.

I don't think hamas is such a clear cut terrorist organization. In the past they might have been but it isin't so clear anymore. Now they are the De facto government of the Gaza strip and take on the responsibilities of a state. They have attacked civilians, so has Israel and I suspect the Isrealies have been much more effective.

[Maugena]

But when discussing 9/11, they're very angry about the loss of American lives! Suddenly, it's personal; it's as if they've been attacked [...]

I completely agree. I don't understand this, but many US citizens do it, regardless.

And now they worry about being insensitive? Yeah right, give me a break. Mr. barunt showed his true colors when expressing his desire for an American to destroy this "mosque" by crashing an airplane into it. You guys don't care about the insensitivity to New Yorkers. So shut up, and f*ck off.

Well said.

[Metsfanmax]

3. You Can’t Simultaneously Acknowledge A Right And Insist That Your Government Suppress It
But the real reason I’m writing is not just because of people like Sarah Palin, but because of shameful, spineless panderers like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Here’s a statement from each of them designed to give the appearance of being tolerant while adhering to good old-fashioned common sense values:

From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:

“We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”

And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:

While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid “thinks this mosque should be built some place else,” his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.

Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.

You can’t legally stop people from obeying the law.

This point is incredibly disingenuous. Not one of the people mentioned in the controversy is suggesting that these people be forced to not build this place. The fact that they both indicate that the Muslims have the right, means that they're not suggesting that the government should stop the construction. They're only saying that it is distasteful to build it there.

The people on Cracked should go back to writing things that are actually funny.

[tzor]

Um sorry Tzor but the Imam just said he wouldn't necessarily call Hamas a terrorist group. That isn't the same as a direct supporter.

Bullshit. That's support. The group calls for the destruction of Israel. The group constatly attacks civilian populations. To deny the obvious (especially since it is officially listed as a terrorist organization by the United States) is to give credibility to them and that is support. Plain and simple.

Which still isn't the same as a direct supporter. It might indicate sympathy for Hamas and the Palestinians but not direct support.

I don't think hamas is such a clear cut terrorist organization. In the past they might have been but it isin't so clear anymore. Now they are the De facto government of the Gaza strip and take on the responsibilities of a state. They have attacked civilians, so has Israel and I suspect the Isrealies have been much more effective.

Oh ... "sympathy" for Hamas
"Sympathy" for Hitler

You are either against fucking evil or you are for it. Being "lukewarm" towards evil is a worse crime than supporitng it. The only reason why Hamas hasn't killed every Jew in Israel is becuase they can't do that at this moment in time. (They're waiting for a bomb, bomb, bomb, from their masters in Iran ou know.)

[Metsfanmax]

You are either against fucking evil or you are for it.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[Phatscotty]

Can I ask everyone something? Is is not true that places and "private property" all around America, is being forced to remove crosses, simply because it offended 1 person?

There is more than 1 person offended by the mosque at G0

[Metsfanmax]

Can I ask everyone something? Is is not true that places and "private property" all around America, is being forced to remove crosses, simply because it offended 1 person?

There is more than 1 person offended by the mosque at G0

I don't think there are any examples of crosses being forced to be removed from private properties.

[tzor]

You are either against fucking evil or you are for it.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Yes I know, and a real Jedi Knight deals with Grey Gooses.

It's the people who advocate genocide and the extermination of whole nations that have generated the "absolute" in the equation. Obamacare may be "evil" but it's not absolute fucking evil. The complete destruction of Israel is, because you know once they kill all the Jews in Israel they won't stop until they kill every last single one. That's fucking evil and that cannot be tollerated. The line must be drawn, here and no further.

Personally I prefer LîV

[Metsfanmax]

It's the people who advocate genocide and the extermination of whole nations that have generated the "absolute" in the equation. Obamacare may be "evil" but it's not absolute fucking evil. The complete destruction of Israel is, because you know once they kill all the Jews in Israel they won't stop until they kill every last single one. That's fucking evil and that cannot be tollerated. The line must be drawn, here and no further.

Your method of debate is incredibly disingenuous. The guy didn't say that Hamas doesn't do bad things, he just questioned whether it's fair to label them as terrorists. I don't think there's an absolute answer to that question either. They're certainly not the same as Al Qaeda.

[Phatscotty]

It's the people who advocate genocide and the extermination of whole nations that have generated the "absolute" in the equation. Obamacare may be "evil" but it's not absolute fucking evil. The complete destruction of Israel is, because you know once they kill all the Jews in Israel they won't stop until they kill every last single one. That's fucking evil and that cannot be tollerated. The line must be drawn, here and no further.

Your method of debate is incredibly disingenuous. The guy didn't say that Hamas doesn't do bad things, he just questioned whether it's fair to label them as terrorists. I don't think there's an absolute answer to that question either. They're certainly not the same as Al Qaeda.

right, but we should all be able to admit that Hamas is questionable, one way or the other...

[InkL0sed]

It's the people who advocate genocide and the extermination of whole nations that have generated the "absolute" in the equation. Obamacare may be "evil" but it's not absolute fucking evil. The complete destruction of Israel is, because you know once they kill all the Jews in Israel they won't stop until they kill every last single one. That's fucking evil and that cannot be tollerated. The line must be drawn, here and no further.

Your method of debate is incredibly disingenuous. The guy didn't say that Hamas doesn't do bad things, he just questioned whether it's fair to label them as terrorists. I don't think there's an absolute answer to that question either. They're certainly not the same as Al Qaeda.

right, but we should all be able to admit that Hamas is questionable, one way or the other...

Yeah, and in that quote he questioned it. "Questionable" goes both ways.

[Baron Von PWN]

Um sorry Tzor but the Imam just said he wouldn't necessarily call Hamas a terrorist group. That isn't the same as a direct supporter.

Bullshit. That's support. The group calls for the destruction of Israel. The group constatly attacks civilian populations. To deny the obvious (especially since it is officially listed as a terrorist organization by the United States) is to give credibility to them and that is support. Plain and simple.

Which still isn't the same as a direct supporter. It might indicate sympathy for Hamas and the Palestinians but not direct support.

I don't think hamas is such a clear cut terrorist organization. In the past they might have been but it isin't so clear anymore. Now they are the De facto government of the Gaza strip and take on the responsibilities of a state. They have attacked civilians, so has Israel and I suspect the Isrealies have been much more effective.

Oh ... "sympathy" for Hamas
"Sympathy" for Hitler

You are either against fucking evil or you are for it. Being "lukewarm" towards evil is a worse crime than supporitng it. The only reason why Hamas hasn't killed every Jew in Israel is becuase they can't do that at this moment in time. (They're waiting for a bomb, bomb, bomb, from their masters in Iran ou know.)

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. The Isrealis also bulldoze plaestinian homes, had blockaded all of gaza in a modern day seige, and have established something bearing quite a bit of resemblance to an apartheid state. Are you against these evils as well?

Sure Hamas has done vile things, but so has Isreal I'm not sure you can call either side terrorists when they are caught up in such a long and nasty conflict.

The Imam's "support" for Hamas came from his response to the question "do you agree hamas is a terrorist organization?" To which he replied "I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy" So basically he declined to comment OMG crazy terrorist! He is someone looking to promote dialogue so he isin't going to go around condemning people as that doesn't really promote dialogue.

[Baron Von PWN]

Can I ask everyone something? Is is not true that places and "private property" all around America, is being forced to remove crosses, simply because it offended 1 person?

There is more than 1 person offended by the mosque at G0

I was aware of only public buildings/property being required to remove crosses or religious symbolism. I have never heard of this happening, where's the sauce?

[b.k. barunt]

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

The only reason for that is the Israelis are badass and the Palestinians are a bunch of stoopit Wogs who can't fight worth a f*ck.


Honibaz

[Baron Von PWN]

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

The only reason for that is the Israelis are badass and the Palestinians are a bunch of stoopit Wogs who can't fight worth a f*ck.


Honibaz

Yeah that's probably it, or you know the Isrealis have fighter jets, tanks and artillery. You're right though the Palestinians are just stupid wogs.

[Maugena]

Holy shit, are the nay-sayers becoming sensible?

[b.k. barunt]

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

The only reason for that is the Israelis are badass and the Palestinians are a bunch of stoopit Wogs who can't fight worth a f*ck.


Honibaz

Yeah that's probably it, or you know the Isrealis have fighter jets, tanks and artillery. You're right though the Palestinians are just stupid wogs.

I guess you're too young to remember the six day war, when all the Wogs ganged up on the Israelis with plenty of fighter jets, tanks and artillery. In fact they had more fighter jets, tanks and artillery then the Israelis. I remember a joke that was going around back then:

A large armored division of Wogs was encamped in the desert. One of the sentries saw an Israeli on top of a sand dune. When the Israeli saw that he'd been spotted by the sentry he mooned him. The sentry radioed in to the CP and told them what he saw, and a few minutes later 2 companies of Wogs came running up. They saw the Israeli mooning them and started doing the ululating Wog thing that they do when they're getting psyched up. Their commanding officer told them to wait for a recon before they attacked, and sent in a scout.

A few minutes later the scout came running back in an obvious state of panic. "Fall back! Fall back! He shouted, gasping for breath. "It's and ambush!! There's 2 of them!!!"

Fooking Wogs - they're great as terrorists attacking unarmed civilians, but you don't want to use them in an actual armed conflict.


Honibaz

[Baron Von PWN]

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

The only reason for that is the Israelis are badass and the Palestinians are a bunch of stoopit Wogs who can't fight worth a f*ck.


Honibaz

Yeah that's probably it, or you know the Isrealis have fighter jets, tanks and artillery. You're right though the Palestinians are just stupid wogs.

I guess you're too young to remember the six day war, when all the Wogs ganged up on the Israelis with plenty of fighter jets, tanks and artillery. In fact they had more fighter jets, tanks and artillery then the Israelis. I remember a joke that was going around back then:

A large armored division of Wogs was encamped in the desert. One of the sentries saw an Israeli on top of a sand dune. When the Israeli saw that he'd been spotted by the sentry he mooned him. The sentry radioed in to the CP and told them what he saw, and a few minutes later 2 companies of Wogs came running up. They saw the Israeli mooning them and started doing the ululating Wog thing that they do when they're getting psyched up. Their commanding officer told them to wait for a recon before they attacked, and sent in a scout.

A few minutes later the scout came running back in an obvious state of panic. "Fall back! Fall back! He shouted, gasping for breath. "It's and ambush!! There's 2 of them!!!"

Fooking Wogs - they're great as terrorists attacking unarmed civilians, but you don't want to use them in an actual armed conflict.


Honibaz

Yes the 6 days war was very impressive, both on the part of Israel's military excellence and the incompetence of the Arab leadership. Israel was the clear victim in that conflict and its proper that they won. The was 1967 though situation has changed quite a bit in 43 years

[tzor]

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. The Isrealis also bulldoze plaestinian homes, had blockaded all of gaza in a modern day seige, and have established something bearing quite a bit of resemblance to an apartheid state. Are you against these evils as well?

Sure Hamas has done vile things, but so has Isreal I'm not sure you can call either side terrorists when they are caught up in such a long and nasty conflict.

The Imam's "support" for Hamas came from his response to the question "do you agree hamas is a terrorist organization?" To which he replied "I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy" So basically he declined to comment OMG crazy terrorist! He is someone looking to promote dialogue so he isin't going to go around condemning people as that doesn't really promote dialogue.

Israel is not a "terrorist." They my be a bull in a china shop, but not caring about collateral damage against civilians is not the same as deliberate causing of damage against civilians for the purpose of imposing fear. Let's be clear, if the nuclear nation (even though they don't want to admit it) of Israel wanted to wipe hamas and everyone in the gasa strip off the face of the earth they could easily do it. They don't. Hamas on the other hand would clearly do so if it had the option.

Thus the Imam's lame "poltical" argument is akin to that infamous UK prime minister trying to appease a rising Hitler. It's not political, you can't reasonably talk to someone while ignoring these 800 pound gorillis in the room.

So who really speaks for the Palistinians? Well, no one really. Sucks to be them. (And Christian Palistinians get suck squared.)

Yes there is blame a -plenty, but that is not the same as active terrorism. Hamas is the later, and anyone who waffles from this is supporting them.

[b.k. barunt]

Yes the 6 days war was very impressive, both on the part of Israel's military excellence and the incompetence of the Arab leadership. Israel was the clear victim in that conflict and its proper that they won. The was 1967 though situation has changed quite a bit in 43 years

"Changed"?? The muslim nations of the Middle East (not sure about Jordan) are still united in the adamant belief that Israel has no right to exist as a nation. They've backed off a tad because they got their numpty asses kicked - that's all that's "changed" - well that and the sad fact that they've managed to convince Liberal American fuckwits that they want "peace" with Israel and that Islam is a "peaceful" religion.


Honibaz

[Baron Von PWN]

hmm so do you feel as negatively about isreal? They have killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. The Isrealis also bulldoze plaestinian homes, had blockaded all of gaza in a modern day seige, and have established something bearing quite a bit of resemblance to an apartheid state. Are you against these evils as well?

Sure Hamas has done vile things, but so has Isreal I'm not sure you can call either side terrorists when they are caught up in such a long and nasty conflict.

The Imam's "support" for Hamas came from his response to the question "do you agree hamas is a terrorist organization?" To which he replied "I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy" So basically he declined to comment OMG crazy terrorist! He is someone looking to promote dialogue so he isin't going to go around condemning people as that doesn't really promote dialogue.

Israel is not a "terrorist." They my be a bull in a china shop, but not caring about collateral damage against civilians is not the same as deliberate causing of damage against civilians for the purpose of imposing fear. Let's be clear, if the nuclear nation (even though they don't want to admit it) of Israel wanted to wipe hamas and everyone in the gasa strip off the face of the earth they could easily do it. They don't. Hamas on the other hand would clearly do so if it had the option.

Thus the Imam's lame "poltical" argument is akin to that infamous UK prime minister trying to appease a rising Hitler. It's not political, you can't reasonably talk to someone while ignoring these 800 pound gorillis in the room.

So who really speaks for the Palistinians? Well, no one really. Sucks to be them. (And Christian Palistinians get suck squared.)

Yes there is blame a -plenty, but that is not the same as active terrorism. Hamas is the later, and anyone who waffles from this is supporting them.

Oh look godwin's law classy. Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

I'm sure the fact that it is "collateral damage" makes it much less terrorizing for the Palestinians. I suppose systematic destruction and seizure of Palestinian homes and land is also simply collateral damage.

Clearly Hamas' only grievance with Israel is that they are Jewish. Their only motivation must be a anti-Semitic blood lust and are guided simply by evil and hate.

Isreal clearly is an inocent lamb defending itself from the vicious Palestinian murderers. They unreasonably refuse to understand that the Isrealis have a right to their land.

Hamas uses despicable tactics yes,In the context of a despicable conflict however (one that started with terrorism on the Jewish side by the way) it isn't particularly surprising especially when Isreal holds all the cards. I don't think its so clear cut that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I'm no Hamas supporter.