WTC and a Mosque

[Baron Von PWN]

Yes the 6 days war was very impressive, both on the part of Israel's military excellence and the incompetence of the Arab leadership. Israel was the clear victim in that conflict and its proper that they won. The was 1967 though situation has changed quite a bit in 43 years

"Changed"?? The muslim nations of the Middle East (not sure about Jordan) are still united in the adamant belief that Israel has no right to exist as a nation. They've backed off a tad because they got their numpty asses kicked - that's all that's "changed" - well that and the sad fact that they've managed to convince Liberal American fuckwits that they want "peace" with Israel and that Islam is a "peaceful" religion.


Honibaz

Maybe, however they are all pathetically weak and out dated compared to Israel, I bet they sill use old soviet crap. In addition to their technological advantage Israel also has the geographic advantage now as well as the support of western nations. The Arab states by comparison have no serious backer like they did in the 60's. Iran support's them but it is no replacement for the Soviets. Besides none of the Arab states truly give a f*ck about the Palestinians anymore, they might sympathize and offer token support but that's it.

Israel now has total control of the palestinian territories and haven't exactly been entirely benevolent towards the Palestinians.

Don't take this for support of Hamas or the Palestinians. Both sides have shown flagrant disregard for human life and decency and the place is going to stay totally fucked untill there are some serious attitude changes on both sides. The Palestinians certainly don't help their case with their use of terrorist tactics.

[heavycola]

not caring about collateral damage against civilians is not the same as deliberate causing of damage against civilians for the purpose of imposing fear.

weasel words. no, not they same thing, but they are as bad as each other.
Or, to look at it your way: one group kills women and children because it doesn't give a shit who it kills; one group kills women and children because it does care who it kills.
End of the day, there are innocent deaths aplenty on both sides. You picking a side based on your terrible semantic distinction is one of the lamest things i have read here recently.

[b.k. barunt]

Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

When did this "invasion" take place? I guarantee that whatever date you name i can cite evidence that shows there were also Jews living there prior to that date and it was their land too. They were always persecuted by the Palestinians because they were a minority and when there was an influx of them after 1946 the Palestinians started attacking them more and more. Why? Because their fooking religion demanded it (Sura 9:124) for one thing.

Clearly Hamas' only grievance with Israel is that they are Jewish. Their only motivation must be a anti-Semitic blood lust and are guided simply by evil and hate.

Again, their main grievance is that the Jews are Jews and not muslims. You parrot the standard prefab Liberal bandwagon bullshit and have obviously done no study on your own in this matter. You are clearly ignorant of any historical facts that are omitted in the Liberal arguments and you refuse to accept the inflammatory passages in the Koran even when i stick them right in front of your face.

Palestinians don't want peace with the Jews - they want to kill them and take Palestine for themselves. History bears this out, their Koran bears this out, but you met some kewl muslims who are lax in their religion (even to the point of getting drunk) and so of course you can ignore such evidence.

Isreal clearly is an inocent lamb defending itself from the vicious Palestinian murderers.

No, Israel is a badass pit bull that's thoroughly capable of defending itself from the pack of mangy, cowardly dogs that wish they were able to harm it.

Hamas uses despicable tactics yes,In the context of a despicable conflict however (one that started with terrorism on the Jewish side by the way) it isn't particularly surprising especially when Isreal holds all the cards. I don't think its so clear cut that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I'm no Hamas supporter.

Like i said, you parrot Liberal rhetoric without bothering to check the facts. Where and when did this "terrorism on the Jewish side" kick things off? I guarantee you i can cite you a Palestinian attack that preceded it - probably won't have to look further than wikipedia. Go ahead - give me a reference for this opening attack from the Jews against the Palestinians.

Ferfucksake try thinking for yourself for a change instead of simply repeating things you hear on that bandwagon.


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

not caring about collateral damage against civilians is not the same as deliberate causing of damage against civilians for the purpose of imposing fear.

weasel words. no, not they same thing, but they are as bad as each other.
Or, to look at it your way: one group kills women and children because it doesn't give a shit who it kills; one group kills women and children because it does care who it kills.
End of the day, there are innocent deaths aplenty on both sides. You picking a side based on your terrible semantic distinction is one of the lamest things i have read here recently.

Newsflash for you genius - there's a difference between Manslaughter and Murder. One is intentional and one is accidental. Maybe "semantics" to you but it makes a big difference in a court of law. Maybe it's different in Britain?


Honibaz

[porkenbeans]

Baron Von PWN wrote: Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

After WWII the UN, with the USA at its lead, decided that the Jews should have their own Country. THIS IS WHERE THIS WHOLE MESS STARTED. It may have been a better idea if Germany, rather than Palestine, was the place chosen to give them. It sure wold have made more sense if you ask me. Why not make the ones responsible for the holocaust, pay out the ass for their actions.

But no, the decision was made to take the land away from a third party, that had absolutely no part, in the attempted extermination of the European Jews.

I do not have a dog in this race, so I am not really biased one way or the other, BUT, It is not that difficult of a thing to imagine how the Muslim world was not, and is not, all that exited about giving up some of their most holy lands, to a rival religion.

You only need to put yourself in their shoes to understand why they might be against this, to their dying breath. I know that I would feel the same way if say, everything east of the Mississippi was given back to the Native Americans. And while we are at it, lets give back everything west of the Mississippi to Mexico. Hell, we are only talking about history that goes back only a couple hundred years, NOT 2,000, as is the case for Israel. Not to mention the fact that the Jews NEVER owned that land.

I do not know that there will ever be a solution, that will change the minds of the Muslims on this one. When I put myself in their shoes, I can certainly understand the sentiment of wanting to run them into the sea.

That said, there is a great deal to be feared of the fundamentalist Muslim movement. There archaic beliefs, are diametrically opposed to the modern world. And sooner or later, it will come to an all out WWIII.

[b.k. barunt]

Baron Von PWN wrote: Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

After WWII the UN, with the USA at its lead, decided that the Jews should have their own Country. THIS IS WHERE THIS WHOLE MESS STARTED. It may have been a better idea if Germany, rather than Palestine, was the place chosen to give them. It sure wold have made more sense if you ask me. Why not make the ones responsible for the holocaust, pay out the ass for their actions.

But no, the decision was made to take the land away from a third party, that had absolutely no part, in the attempted extermination of the European Jews.

I do not have a dog in this race, so I am not really biased one way or the other, BUT, It is not that difficult of a thing to imagine how the Muslim world was not, and is not, all that exited about giving up some of their most holy lands, to a rival religion.

You only need to put yourself in their shoes to understand why they might be against this, to their dying breath. I know that I would feel the same way if say, everything east of the Mississippi was given back to the Native Americans. And while we are at it, lets give back everything west of the Mississippi to Mexico. Hell, we are only talking about history that goes back only a couple hundred years, NOT 2,000, as is the case for Israel. Not to mention the fact that the Jews NEVER owned that land.

I do not know that there will ever be a solution, that will change the minds of the Muslims on this one. When I put myself in their shoes, I can certainly understand the sentiment of wanting to run them into the sea.

That said, there is a great deal to be feared of the fundamentalist Muslim movement. There archaic beliefs, are diametrically opposed to the modern world. And sooner or later, it will come to an all out WWIII.

Quite a long post for such a superficial knowledge of the subject.

Anyone who thinks there were no Jews in Palestine prior to WWII is clearly ignorant of the historical facts, which should relegate such a one to the status of an observer in any serious discussion. Also the Palestinians didn't "own" the land. They were ignorant nomads for the most part who contributed little to nothing as far as any developement of the country. The Jews were responsible for turning it into a prosperous nation, not the wandering camel jockeys who're now enjoying the fruits of the Jews' labors in the cities and housing developments that they now live in.

Btw, if you go back 2,000 years as you say, then yes the Jews did own the land. It was then known as "Judaea".


Honibaz

[Baron Von PWN]

When did this "invasion" take place? I guarantee that whatever date you name i can cite evidence that shows there were also Jews living there prior to that date and it was their land too. They were always persecuted by the Palestinians because they were a minority and when there was an influx of them after 1946 the Palestinians started attacking them more and more. Why? Because their fooking religion demanded it (Sura 9:124) for one thing.

When jews were flowing into what was predominantly palestinian land during the 1930's? Then later on during the 6 days war Isreal occupied Gaza and the west bank. They still have de jure control over this regions and have built settlements inside these occupied lands. In recent times they have taken the encouraging step of curtailing the settlements. So you are saying there was a minority of Jews, now there is a majority of jews in the area. I wonder how that happened?

Maybe just maybe Palestinians don't like them because because Israelis bulldoze their homes and appropriate their land.

Again, their main grievance is that the Jews are Jews and not muslims. You parrot the standard prefab Liberal bandwagon bullshit and have obviously done no study on your own in this matter. You are clearly ignorant of any historical facts that are omitted in the Liberal arguments and you refuse to accept the inflammatory passages in the Koran even when i stick them right in front of your face.

Palestinians don't want peace with the Jews - they want to kill them and take Palestine for themselves. History bears this out, their Koran bears this out, but you met some kewl muslims who are lax in their religion (even to the point of getting drunk) and so of course you can ignore such evidence.

I didn't know you had such good knowledge of everything I read Honibaz! You seem to be mistaken in this case though, I must have done some reading away from your cameras or crystal balls .

Which historical facts excuse Israel's bulldozing and occupying palestinian homes? Which historical facts allow Israel to systematically appropriate palestinian lands? Or blockade a whole city?

Yes its quite Obvious hamas uses Koranic verses to justify their terrorist actions, its also quite clear the Koran can be used this way. Doesn't mean everyone who beleives in Islam is going to follow those verses.

Its amazing that you know the opinions of every palestinian, Honibaz! Do you achieve this through the same means that you know everything that i've read?

Some Palestinians do feel that way, I'm sure quite a few of them are in Hamas. Though i'm sure even in hamas there is a variety of opinion. I thought we were talking about Palestinians not Muslims . I've never met any Palestinians.

Like i said, you parrot Liberal rhetoric without bothering to check the facts. Where and when did this "terrorism on the Jewish side" kick things off? I guarantee you i can cite you a Palestinian attack that preceded it - probably won't have to look further than wikipedia. Go ahead - give me a reference for this opening attack from the Jews against the Palestinians.

Ferfucksake try thinking for yourself for a change instead of simply repeating things you hear on that bandwagon.

Honibaz

That would be with the creation of the Irgun they became most prominent when Jewish political leaders were urging restraint. To be fair they were a reaction to native riots over immigration. Whether or not the riots count as terrorism is debatable but I will concede the point that Irgun violence against Palestinians and the British were a reaction to Palestinian violence and perceived lack of support/action by the British.

The Irgun began a bombing campaign against the British colonial administration in order to pressure it into allowing more Jewish immigration despite the wishes of the native Arabs, as well as punish Arabs for attacking Jews. The whole point of Jewish immigration wasto create a Jewish homeland. Tough luck for the Palestinians who happened to call the same area their homeland. As you say though they were just a bunch of stupid wogs, probably too stupid to use it properly anyways right?

I think plenty for myself and certainly don't give support to people who use suicide bombers.I also see no reason to be so supportive of a country that regularly bulldozes homes of people under its responsibility, or blockades entire cities in order to punish a single group. Might I suggest you look and see what kind of wagon you are riding on Honibaz. An awfull lot of what you have to say seems to be how worthless Palestinians are in general.

[Woodruff]

Can I ask everyone something? Is is not true that places and "private property" all around America, is being forced to remove crosses, simply because it offended 1 person?

This is news to me.

Hell, the county courthouse in my home town still has the Ten Commandments posted in a huge marble display out on the corner of the block (the courthouse takes up the whole block).

[porkenbeans]

Baron Von PWN wrote: Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

After WWII the UN, with the USA at its lead, decided that the Jews should have their own Country. THIS IS WHERE THIS WHOLE MESS STARTED. It may have been a better idea if Germany, rather than Palestine, was the place chosen to give them. It sure wold have made more sense if you ask me. Why not make the ones responsible for the holocaust, pay out the ass for their actions.

But no, the decision was made to take the land away from a third party, that had absolutely no part, in the attempted extermination of the European Jews.

I do not have a dog in this race, so I am not really biased one way or the other, BUT, It is not that difficult of a thing to imagine how the Muslim world was not, and is not, all that exited about giving up some of their most holy lands, to a rival religion.

You only need to put yourself in their shoes to understand why they might be against this, to their dying breath. I know that I would feel the same way if say, everything east of the Mississippi was given back to the Native Americans. And while we are at it, lets give back everything west of the Mississippi to Mexico. Hell, we are only talking about history that goes back only a couple hundred years, NOT 2,000, as is the case for Israel. Not to mention the fact that the Jews NEVER owned that land.

I do not know that there will ever be a solution, that will change the minds of the Muslims on this one. When I put myself in their shoes, I can certainly understand the sentiment of wanting to run them into the sea.

That said, there is a great deal to be feared of the fundamentalist Muslim movement. There archaic beliefs, are diametrically opposed to the modern world. And sooner or later, it will come to an all out WWIII.

Quite a long post for such a superficial knowledge of the subject.

Anyone who thinks there were no Jews in Palestine prior to WWII is clearly ignorant of the historical facts, which should relegate such a one to the status of an observer in any serious discussion. Also the Palestinians didn't "own" the land. They were ignorant nomads for the most part who contributed little to nothing as far as any developement of the country. The Jews were responsible for turning it into a prosperous nation, not the wandering camel jockeys who're now enjoying the fruits of the Jews' labors in the cities and housing developments that they now live in.

Btw, if you go back 2,000 years as you say, then yes the Jews did own the land. It was then known as "Judaea".


Honibaz

Where did I say hat there were no Jews in Palestine ? The Jews have been spread out over the entire planet. Hell Beck was saying the other day that Native Americans were descendant from Jews. LOL.

So let me get this straight. Its OK with you, to invade someones homeland, so long as you improve the infrastructure ?

Yes, a Tribal form of governing has ruled the area longer than written history. This fact is the reason it was relatively easy, to be taken over by the Jews. There was not an organized structure in place to stop them. So I guess that might makes right ?

Without the backing from the US and others, the Jews would have never been able, to successfully invade Palestine after WWII.

[Baron Von PWN]

Quite a long post for such a superficial knowledge of the subject.

Anyone who thinks there were no Jews in Palestine prior to WWII is clearly ignorant of the historical facts, which should relegate such a one to the status of an observer in any serious discussion. Also the Palestinians didn't "own" the land. They were ignorant nomads for the most part who contributed little to nothing as far as any developement of the country. The Jews were responsible for turning it into a prosperous nation, not the wandering camel jockeys who're now enjoying the fruits of the Jews' labors in the cities and housing developments that they now live in.

Btw, if you go back 2,000 years as you say, then yes the Jews did own the land. It was then known as "Judaea".


Honibaz

Jews made up about 10% of the Arabic speaking population of Palestine before the breakup of the Ottoman empire.(sauce:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Palestine)

I decided to look a bit deeper into it, and found a pretty good wikipedia article which covers the history of palestine(and frequently mentions the amount/influence/treatment of jews in each period). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

In it we see that Ever since the Roman conquered the old jewish kingdom some 2100 years ago Jew's have been a minority in palestine, a times almost wiped out (usually times of christian control). For some 1300 years Muslims controlled Palestine and Jews were allowed to live peacefully.

Those 1300 years of Muslim tolerance certainly seems to run counter to your Muslims want to kill Jews because of the Koran theory Honibaz.

[Johnny Rockets]

So let me get this straight. Its OK with you, to invade someones homeland, so long as you improve the infrastructure ?

Yes, a Tribal form of governing has ruled the area longer than written history. This fact is the reason it was relatively easy, to be taken over by the Jews. There was not an organized structure in place to stop them. So I guess that might makes right ?

Without the backing from the US and others, the Jews would have never been able, to successfully invade Palestine after WWII.

So let me get this straight. Is this not how America was founded? Along with Canada and every other modern country with European roots?

And U.S. backing was more private support from Jewish Americans and Jewish Organizations that whatever assist they got from the Federal government. The Jews did a whole f*ck of a lot, with a whole f*ck of a lot less. To claim they were only able to do it because of American Government backing is very inaccurate.

They didn't sweep in and conquer with sword and bloodshed either. The original settlements were purchased from Arab land holders, leaving the tenants screwed with no recourse. It was Arab rich screwing the Arab poor. Something that knows no national boundaries to be sure. In the end, when the British withdrew troops from the region everything was set up to be a slaughter of WWII proportions with every Arab country drooling at the prospect and carving up the real estate. One of the reasons they lost because behind the scenes they were doing their best to f*ck each other over to get a bigger slice of the pie. In the end they got their asses handed to them, leaving behind a sea of refugees that fled their homes even after the Jews proclaimed that as long as they didn't go to war, or flee they could remain in peace. When all was said and done these refugees were deserted by their brother Arabs and left to rot in what is now Palestine.

J.R.

[Baron Von PWN]

So let me get this straight. Its OK with you, to invade someones homeland, so long as you improve the infrastructure ?

Yes, a Tribal form of governing has ruled the area longer than written history. This fact is the reason it was relatively easy, to be taken over by the Jews. There was not an organized structure in place to stop them. So I guess that might makes right ?

Without the backing from the US and others, the Jews would have never been able, to successfully invade Palestine after WWII.

So let me get this straight. Is this not how America was founded? Along with Canada and every other modern country with European roots?.

It isin't all that diffrent, except that it happened in the 20th century rather than the 18th or 19th. Sometime after attitudes towards colonized peoples had changed somewhat.

[tzor]

Oh look godwin's law classy. Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

I'm sure the fact that it is "collateral damage" makes it much less terrorizing for the Palestinians. I suppose systematic destruction and seizure of Palestinian homes and land is also simply collateral damage.

Clearly Hamas' only grievance with Israel is that they are Jewish. Their only motivation must be a anti-Semitic blood lust and are guided simply by evil and hate.

Isreal clearly is an inocent lamb defending itself from the vicious Palestinian murderers. They unreasonably refuse to understand that the Isrealis have a right to their land.

Hamas uses despicable tactics yes,In the context of a despicable conflict however (one that started with terrorism on the Jewish side by the way) it isn't particularly surprising especially when Isreal holds all the cards. I don't think its so clear cut that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I'm no Hamas supporter.

I think you missed a semicolon on the first sentence. Genocide is genocide. I suppose I could have invoked Turkey or Rwanda (you know, I'm using Google now for my spell checking, they really know how to find the right word) but I fear that it would have gone over many heads around here.

You have hit the nail on the head with Hamas. In general they do not reflect the will of the people. They only got into power because the other party was totally corrupt and inept. (Lesson for any electorate, if you vote against a party and not for the other party you only hurt yourself in the long run. Always vote for people you agree with and not with any idiot who is opposed to someone you are annoyed with.)

Is Israel innocent? Why I would never say that! But all things considered, Israel is more "innocent" than anyone else in the region. The treatment of Palistinian people by the various nations in the Middle East is appauling. Unfortunately, most of the western world have forgotten all the "refugees" (now the grandchildren of refugees) living in permanent refugee camps in various Middle Eastern Nations under conditions that actually make the Gaza Strip look good, and the West Bank paradise.

Let's get to the nuts and bolts of the terrorist mind (and Hamas is indeed a terror organization). They do not want peace. They want hate. Hatred breeds unquestionable loyalty; unity to a common enemy blinds men to the causes of their differences. They survive on terror ... against the palistinian people! They accomplish this by identifying the hornet's nest and constantly attacking it so that the hornets wind up killing the people they wish to terrorize (their own people). Then they "save" them by ... stirring up the hornest nest again.

Let me ask you this question. Why does life in the Gaza Strip suck? No really, this is a real question. The illegal tunnels into Gaza probably have more throughput than the legal ones even if there was no blockade whatsoever. (You can smuggle cars through some of those tunnels.) The answer is that the shortages are deliberate on the part of the smugglers because they are controlled by Hamas and this is what Hamas wants.

Although they are bloated, corrupt and just plain old tried, the P.A. does represent the will of the Palestinean people more than does Hamas. My personal suggestion is to just "give up" and convince the P.A. that the only real short term solution is a "three state" solution, with significant progress towards statehood for the West Bank separate from that of the Gaza Strip until Hamas agrees to give up its nation destroying genocide ways.

[Baron Von PWN]

Oh look godwin's law classy. Never mind that the Palestinians are the ones that have had their land invaded in this case.

I'm sure the fact that it is "collateral damage" makes it much less terrorizing for the Palestinians. I suppose systematic destruction and seizure of Palestinian homes and land is also simply collateral damage.

Clearly Hamas' only grievance with Israel is that they are Jewish. Their only motivation must be a anti-Semitic blood lust and are guided simply by evil and hate.

Isreal clearly is an inocent lamb defending itself from the vicious Palestinian murderers. They unreasonably refuse to understand that the Isrealis have a right to their land.

Hamas uses despicable tactics yes,In the context of a despicable conflict however (one that started with terrorism on the Jewish side by the way) it isn't particularly surprising especially when Isreal holds all the cards. I don't think its so clear cut that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I'm no Hamas supporter.

I think you missed a semicolon on the first sentence. Genocide is genocide. I suppose I could have invoked Turkey or Rwanda (you know, I'm using Google now for my spell checking, they really know how to find the right word) but I fear that it would have gone over many heads around here.

You have hit the nail on the head with Hamas. In general they do not reflect the will of the people. They only got into power because the other party was totally corrupt and inept. (Lesson for any electorate, if you vote against a party and not for the other party you only hurt yourself in the long run. Always vote for people you agree with and not with any idiot who is opposed to someone you are annoyed with.)

Is Israel innocent? Why I would never say that! But all things considered, Israel is more "innocent" than anyone else in the region. The treatment of Palistinian people by the various nations in the Middle East is appauling. Unfortunately, most of the western world have forgotten all the "refugees" (now the grandchildren of refugees) living in permanent refugee camps in various Middle Eastern Nations under conditions that actually make the Gaza Strip look good, and the West Bank paradise.

Let's get to the nuts and bolts of the terrorist mind (and Hamas is indeed a terror organization). They do not want peace. They want hate. Hatred breeds unquestionable loyalty; unity to a common enemy blinds men to the causes of their differences. They survive on terror ... against the palistinian people! They accomplish this by identifying the hornet's nest and constantly attacking it so that the hornets wind up killing the people they wish to terrorize (their own people). Then they "save" them by ... stirring up the hornest nest again.

Let me ask you this question. Why does life in the Gaza Strip suck? No really, this is a real question. The illegal tunnels into Gaza probably have more throughput than the legal ones even if there was no blockade whatsoever. (You can smuggle cars through some of those tunnels.) The answer is that the shortages are deliberate on the part of the smugglers because they are controlled by Hamas and this is what Hamas wants.

Although they are bloated, corrupt and just plain old tried, the P.A. does represent the will of the Palestinean people more than does Hamas. My personal suggestion is to just "give up" and convince the P.A. that the only real short term solution is a "three state" solution, with significant progress towards statehood for the West Bank separate from that of the Gaza Strip until Hamas agrees to give up its nation destroying genocide ways.

There is no way those tunnels could have supported Gaza, besides the Egyptians and Israelis were semi regularly seeking them out and destroying them. even without the blockade Gaza is an isolated territory without resources, a large population(for its size) and no real industry, frankly with the border with Israel unlikely to be opened it doesn't have many economic prospects. This tends to make for a shitty place.


I also agree with you on how Hamas works and I happen to think it is a vile organization. I don't however think it is a pure terrorist organization. At the moment it is acting as a de facto government of Gaza(the reason for Israels blockade i believe) this causes it to have concerns other than simply furthering its political message. They are now burdened with the responsibilities of governance which they cannot ignore (for various reasons). By assuming the role of a government hamas has graduated from terrorist organization to a belligerent (de facto) government representing the interests of Gaza. The bolsheviks were simple terrorists as well before gaining power, simply being nasty won't necessarily make you a terrorist.
You know Hamas has called for the creating of a Caliphate in what is Isreal. This doesen't necessarily mean genocide, and previous muslim regimes had been quite tolerant of Jews. However with the events of the 20th century you are probably right a destroyed isreal would mean a very unsafe place for jews.


I actually agree with you on the three state thing. Having your country split up by a land border sucks (ask Armenia), I doubt it would be very popular idea with Palestinians though they may view it as too divisive. Its effectively what you have now anyways, at least the guys in the west bank aren't fucking insane and might make a half decent government someday.

I also think Isreal Is less bad than the others, but I also think they have been doing some catching up in recent years and seem to be becoming increasingly reactionary.

[porkenbeans]

So let me get this straight. Its OK with you, to invade someones homeland, so long as you improve the infrastructure ?

Yes, a Tribal form of governing has ruled the area longer than written history. This fact is the reason it was relatively easy, to be taken over by the Jews. There was not an organized structure in place to stop them. So I guess that might makes right ?

Without the backing from the US and others, the Jews would have never been able, to successfully invade Palestine after WWII.

So let me get this straight. Is this not how America was founded? Along with Canada and every other modern country with European roots?

And U.S. backing was more private support from Jewish Americans and Jewish Organizations that whatever assist they got from the Federal government. The Jews did a whole f*ck of a lot, with a whole f*ck of a lot less. To claim they were only able to do it because of American Government backing is very inaccurate.

They didn't sweep in and conquer with sword and bloodshed either. The original settlements were purchased from Arab land holders, leaving the tenants screwed with no recourse. It was Arab rich screwing the Arab poor. Something that knows no national boundaries to be sure. In the end, when the British withdrew troops from the region everything was set up to be a slaughter of WWII proportions with every Arab country drooling at the prospect and carving up the real estate. One of the reasons they lost because behind the scenes they were doing their best to f*ck each other over to get a bigger slice of the pie. In the end they got their asses handed to them, leaving behind a sea of refugees that fled their homes even after the Jews proclaimed that as long as they didn't go to war, or flee they could remain in peace. When all was said and done these refugees were deserted by their brother Arabs and left to rot in what is now Palestine.

J.R.

Yes, I know this to be the case, But I did not say the "US gov."

This also, I know to be true
There was a big movement at this time to make the sale of land to Jews illegal. But we all know that "money talks and bullshit walks".

The rest of your post is also, -spot on. The Palestinian people got the short end of the stick all around. And, they continue to this day, to be the ones that are being persecuted. Yeah, they have a certain amount of their population that are, what we might consider, to be terrorist outlaws. But if you were to see the conditions that these people must live, you may understand how, and why, this is so. Hamas has simply stepped in to fill a void that slum conditions are creating. As long as these conditions remain for the Palestinians, there will be those, that will take advantage of this.

If the Israeli's were to put that can-do spirit to work to build up conditions, instead of bulldoze, they might find that the "row to hoe", would be strewn with fewer boulders. It's all about the hearts and minds.

[b.k. barunt]

Where did I say hat there were no Jews in Palestine ? The Jews have been spread out over the entire planet. Hell Beck was saying the other day that Native Americans were descendant from Jews.

Well i guess that explains it. I should've known you were a Beck fan after that last post. So now you admit that there were Jews in Palestine before "it all started in 1946". But then you say they "invaded" . . .

I could go on with this inane discussion but i just read baron's post about 1300 years of muslim "tolerance" and now this. I can only take so much ignorance and you guys surpassed it a while back. Bottom line - watching Beck can literally melt your fooking brain. Enjoy.


Honibaz

[Baron Von PWN]

Where did I say hat there were no Jews in Palestine ? The Jews have been spread out over the entire planet. Hell Beck was saying the other day that Native Americans were descendant from Jews.

Well i guess that explains it. I should've known you were a Beck fan after that last post. So now you admit that there were Jews in Palestine before "it all started in 1946". But then you say they "invaded" . . .

I could go on with this inane discussion but i just read baron's post about 1300 years of muslim "tolerance" and now this. I can only take so much ignorance and you guys surpassed it a while back. Bottom line - watching Beck can literally melt your fooking brain. Enjoy.


Honibaz

If muslims are so frothing at the mouth eager to kill jews due to the Koran how the hell were there any jews in Palestine after 1300 years B.K? You talk about me ignoring facts this is a well established fact about Muslim kingdoms and states, they were far more likely to be tolerant of Jews and Christians "religions of the book" especially in the Ottoman Empire.

Allot of that changed in the 20th century with the advent of nationalism but the fact remains the Muslim world was more tolerant of Jews for many many years.

Jews were a minority in Palestine ever since Roman times. Now either a whole lot of muslims died to make jews the majority or a whole lot of jews showed up.

[porkenbeans]

Where did I say hat there were no Jews in Palestine ? The Jews have been spread out over the entire planet. Hell Beck was saying the other day that Native Americans were descendant from Jews.

Well i guess that explains it. I should've known you were a Beck fan after that last post. So now you admit that there were Jews in Palestine before "it all started in 1946". But then you say they "invaded" . . .

I could go on with this inane discussion but i just read baron's post about 1300 years of muslim "tolerance" and now this. I can only take so much ignorance and you guys surpassed it a while back. Bottom line - watching Beck can literally melt your fooking brain. Enjoy.


Honibaz

BK,
I think Beck is a horses ass. But I am not a mindless partisan, that only watches TV programs that he agrees with. If you want to expand your knowledge, I recommend watching programs like Beck, Hannity, and O'Riley. It may give you insight as to just how ingeniously insidious, their brainwashing techniques are. And, It is always wise to peak at the oppositions playbook, if you get the chance. At the very least, you can cop a laugh or two. Especially entertaining, is when Beck starts to shed those crocodile tears. But I will have to admit to, and give credit to, the fact that Glen Beck is better at the game, that is being played at Fox, than the rest of his peers are.

The best players on the other team would have to be, Chris Mathews, Rachael Maddow, and Kieth OBermin.

I believe that you need to hear from both sides of the argument. So I always try to keep up with what they both are saying.

[Night Strike]

Where did I say hat there were no Jews in Palestine ? The Jews have been spread out over the entire planet. Hell Beck was saying the other day that Native Americans were descendant from Jews.

Well i guess that explains it. I should've known you were a Beck fan after that last post. So now you admit that there were Jews in Palestine before "it all started in 1946". But then you say they "invaded" . . .

I could go on with this inane discussion but i just read baron's post about 1300 years of muslim "tolerance" and now this. I can only take so much ignorance and you guys surpassed it a while back. Bottom line - watching Beck can literally melt your fooking brain. Enjoy.


Honibaz

BK,
I think Beck is a horses ass. But I am not a mindless partisan, that only watches TV programs that he agrees with. If you want to expand your knowledge, you will start watching programs like Beck. It may give you insight as to just how insidious, his brainwashing techniques are. It is wise to peak at the oppositions playbook. And, at the very least you can cop a laugh or two. Especially entertaining is when he starts to shed those crocodile tears.

Beck is a Mormon, and the Mormon faith beliefs that Native Americans are the lost tribe of Israel.

[Woodruff]

Can I ask everyone something? Is is not true that places and "private property" all around America, is being forced to remove crosses, simply because it offended 1 person?

This is news to me.
Hell, the county courthouse in my home town still has the Ten Commandments posted in a huge marble display out on the corner of the block (the courthouse takes up the whole block).

So...nothing at all to back up the claim?

[tzor]

BY the way, not that this has to do with the subject (or perhaps it does) there is a Mormon Temple adjacent to Lincoln Center. It was recently built, but I forget the year.

Now that would be a good place for a mosque, especially if the minerettes had a good view of the park.

[heavycola]

not caring about collateral damage against civilians is not the same as deliberate causing of damage against civilians for the purpose of imposing fear.

weasel words. no, not they same thing, but they are as bad as each other.
Or, to look at it your way: one group kills women and children because it doesn't give a shit who it kills; one group kills women and children because it does care who it kills.
End of the day, there are innocent deaths aplenty on both sides. You picking a side based on your terrible semantic distinction is one of the lamest things i have read here recently.

Newsflash for you genius - there's a difference between Manslaughter and Murder. One is intentional and one is accidental. Maybe "semantics" to you but it makes a big difference in a court of law. Maybe it's different in Britain?


Honibaz

you a lawyer too?
remember this? http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5053R720090106
Israeli rockets targeted a school, killing at least 40 civilians, including children, because, according to an Israele army spokesman, mortars had been directed at them from inside the school compound.
I'm perfectly willing to believe the Israeli line - why would anyone bomb a school inside a refugee camp otherwise? But you suggest that killing 42 palestinian civilians while you're trying to kill a few 'terrorists' is only manslaughter because they got accidentally in the way. So if Hamas rockets land in Israel, and Israel retaliates by nuking the entire Gaza Strip, that's only manslaughter, right? They got the bad guys - all the dead were just unlucky...
It's not semantics, it's lazy black-and-white thinking on your part. At best.