The Gnostic “heresy” – a general discussion

[tzor]

Your reference to the Brazen Serpent (Nehushtan) is a good example, but you omit the crucial reference where King Hezekiah broke it in pieces because people worshipped it as an idol (II Kings 18:4). That was obviously not God's intention for it when He had Moses create it. Regardless of your semantic based argument, most people would agree that icons are worshipped by many people. Maybe not by all but then the Brazen Serpent wasn't worshipped by all. Hezekiah destroyed it because some of the people were worshipping it and so it had become an abomination. Hezekiah was a prime example of an iconoclast and the Scripture clearly states that his actions pleased God.

But the fact that people took an image and later made it an idol, which was treated as a god and given true worship, does not make the creation of the image or the honest veneration (as opposed to worship) against the commandments. The iconoclasts went so far as to even destroy decorations around the churches. Hezeekiah was not an iconoclast; he destroyed something because people had turned it into an idol, and the best way to keep people from making something an idol is to destroy the thing people are making an idol.

Icons, on the other hand, are not idols.

[Juan_Bottom]

notyou2 had a point, I believe, about there being more than one God in Christianity. He took it a different direction than I will, but I do agree with him. But for purposes of having an easy argument, I only will when talking about Catholics.

What is a patron saint?
Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us. The earliest records show that people and churches were named after apostles and martyrs as early as the fourth century.

Recently, the popes have named patron saints but patrons can be chosen by other individuals or groups as well. Patron saints are often chosen today because an interest, talent, or event in their lives overlaps with the special area. Angels can also be named as patron saints. A patron saint can help us when we follow the example of that saint's life and when we ask for that saint's intercessory prayers to God.

For example, Francis of Assisi loved nature and so he is patron of ecologists. Francis de Sales was a writer and so he is patron of journalists and writers. Clare of Assisi was named patron of television because one Christmas when she was too ill to leave her bed she saw and heard Christmas Mass -- even though it was taking place miles away.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/

Patron Saints are named and used in a way that sounds like a great Demi-God or something.

I feel your pain man. I spent over an hour a couple nights ago writing a tediously researched post, then when i hit "submit" the little message popped up which said "you must log in to read this post".

this is why I downloaded Firefox. Now when that happens I can just click on the "back" button.

[khazalid]

firefox is the reformation of our times.

[tzor]

Patron Saints are named and used in a way that sounds like a great Demi-God or something.

Catholics do not worship saints. (Please if you know of anyone who sacrificed a bull to St. Anyone, post the link here.) In fact, let's stop the sloppy english terms right here and now. "Saints" means "holy ones." (Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin sanctus, from Latin, sacred, pure, holy, from past participle of sancire to make sacred, ordain, establish ) It does not per se mean "dead people in heaven."

So with that, let's go to the communion of saints.

The Communion of Saints (in Latin, communio sanctorum), when referred to persons, is the spiritual union of all members of the Christian Church living and the dead, those on earth, in heaven, and, for those who believe in purgatory, those also who are in that state of purification. They are all part of a single "mystical body", with Christ as the head, in which each member contributes to the good of all and shares in the welfare of all.

In Catholic terminology, the Communion of Saints is thus said to comprise the Church Militant (those alive on earth), the Church Penitent (those undergoing purification in Purgatory in preparation for heaven), and the Church Triumphant (those already in heaven). The damned are not among the Communion of Saints. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion, and the Assyrian Church of the East point to this doctrine in support of their practice of asking the intercession of the saints in heaven, whose prayers (cf. Revelation 5:8) are seen as helping their fellow Christians on earth. These same churches refer to this doctrine in support of the practice of praying for the dead (as seen in 2 Timothy 1:16-18).

Thus having one person being the "point person" for a specific type of request is no different than having one person be the point person for all questions you may have on automotive repair. (He might not be able to fix your problem, but he knows who to ask and how.)

[Juan_Bottom]

That's why I said "a greater demi-god." The Vatican is peppered with statues and pictures of Saints, and Patron Saints. When you are praying to someone other than God to help fix a problem, then you are taking away from your worship of God. And the Bible didn't name all the Patron Saints for us to direct our attentions to, human beings did that.

[john9blue]

So with that, let's go to the communion of saints.

The Communion of Saints (in Latin, communio sanctorum), when referred to persons, is the spiritual union of all members of the Christian Church living and the dead, those on earth, in heaven, and, for those who believe in purgatory, those also who are in that state of purification. They are all part of a single "mystical body", with Christ as the head, in which each member contributes to the good of all and shares in the welfare of all.

smells like SOCIALISM

[tzor]

That's why I said "a greater demi-god." The Vatican is peppered with statues and pictures of Saints, and Patron Saints. When you are praying to someone other than God to help fix a problem, then you are taking away from your worship of God. And the Bible didn't name all the Patron Saints for us to direct our attentions to, human beings did that.

Before I look into your sentence, I need to look into the English.

Pray: Etymology: Middle English preyen, prayen, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, entreaty, prayer; akin to Old English gefr[AE]ge hearsay, report, fricgan, frignan, frnan to ask, inquire, Old High German frga question, frgn to ask, Old Norse frtt question, fregna to inquire, find out, Gothic fraihman to find out by inquiry, Tocharian A prak- to ask, Sanskrit prs interrogation, prcchati he asks

So "praying" is "asking" someone. Have you ever actually seen a prayer? Prayers to the holy ones ask the holy one to ask God on their behalf. We know that Paul writes that the requests (prayers) of the holy ones (saints) have great effect.

[heavycola]

That's why I said "a greater demi-god." The Vatican is peppered with statues and pictures of Saints, and Patron Saints. When you are praying to someone other than God to help fix a problem, then you are taking away from your worship of God. And the Bible didn't name all the Patron Saints for us to direct our attentions to, human beings did that.

Before I look into your sentence, I need to look into the English.

Pray: Etymology: Middle English preyen, prayen, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, entreaty, prayer; akin to Old English gefr[AE]ge hearsay, report, fricgan, frignan, frnan to ask, inquire, Old High German frga question, frgn to ask, Old Norse frtt question, fregna to inquire, find out, Gothic fraihman to find out by inquiry, Tocharian A prak- to ask, Sanskrit prs interrogation, prcchati he asks

So "praying" is "asking" someone. Have you ever actually seen a prayer? Prayers to the holy ones ask the holy one to ask God on their behalf. We know that Paul writes that the requests (prayers) of the holy ones (saints) have great effect.

Prayer: asking god to break the laws of the universe just for you.

[2dimes]

I deserve it, I been extra good and was even nice to a towel head once. Now gimme!

[jimboston]

I believe this is much closer to the truth.

Kill the hgeretics!!!!

John if he is a fallen angel, why does he have a vast kingdom to rule over? Why wouldn't god just take both the kingdoms and starve satan to death?

If you accept there is a god as they have written it, then you accept there is another king, named satan. Thus there are 2 gods in christianity and the whole premise of one god falls apart

And this Mary chick, it seems is bigger than both of them in some circles. Ohhh, I get it, she represents mother nature and fertility. Well now we have 3 beings to worship.

Ohh ohh ohh, wait, god and mother nature had a baby and he is worthy of praying to as well.

Now we have 3 beings on one side in a monotheistic religion and 1 on the other side. I count 4.

I know, lets call the 3 on one side the holy trio, no, trinity, yeah trinity, that will explain it all to these mere mortals.

I see what you did there.

But, what about the other guy, you know, the evil one? He's still there ruling his kingdom while the holy trio rules their kingdom.

Monotheistic eh?

I say I've had enough of these mere mortals making shit up to fit their different stories and feeding me bull.

If you want to believe in a higher authority, then all the power to you and I can respect that.

But if you are going to sit there and tell me that I'm doing it wrong because a bunch of mere mortals have this so called god's ear and are the only ones allowed to hear him or interpret the holy writings that he told other mere mortals, than I have a problem with that.

Who's to say these ancient texts written in old dead languages and transcribed by others over the years haven't lost something in the translation, or have been interpreted wrongly? Or w a word left out, or misspelled.

Its all fucking BULL!!!

But, let's kill those guys over there because they are saying different things than we are.

STONE THE HERETICS!!!!

No... this is the most idiotic post ever.

This critism is coming at you "notyou2" by an agnostic who doesn't believe in the God of Christianity.

1) You can not believe in God... that's fine. Doesn't mean people who do are dumb.

2) You can not believe in God, and be so confident in this view that you feel people who do believe must be dumb. That's a short-sighted view... but at least logical.

3) However... if you don't believe, and think people are stupid... and then you completed misinterpret their views and beliefs... you only prove yourself an idiot. You have completely misinterpreted and misquoted Christian faith that you inability to "believe" can't be based on an understanding of their faith... but rather is based on ignorance.

People like you make us agnostics look bad.

[jimboston]

notyou2 had a point, I believe, about there being more than one God in Christianity. He took it a different direction than I will, but I do agree with him. But for purposes of having an easy argument, I only will when talking about Catholics.

Patron Saints are named and used in a way that sounds like a great Demi-God or somethin.

If looked at simplistically yes.

The devil (so to say) is in the details.

People do pray to Saints. However when they pray to Saints then are praying to the Saints to ask the Saints to intercede on their behalf with God. i.e. if you want help, you ask the Saint (who according to doctrine is in Heaven) to ask God to help you. The Saint himself/herself can not actually perfom miracles for you... the Saint can only ask God to perform those miracles for you.

[tzor]

Prayer: asking god to break the laws of the universe just for you.

Have you ever studied universal law?

Then how do you know if any laws are broken.

[tzor]

So with that, let's go to the communion of saints.

The Communion of Saints (in Latin, communio sanctorum), when referred to persons, is the spiritual union of all members of the Christian Church living and the dead, those on earth, in heaven, and, for those who believe in purgatory, those also who are in that state of purification. They are all part of a single "mystical body", with Christ as the head, in which each member contributes to the good of all and shares in the welfare of all.

smells like SOCIALISM

It sort of is, in an odd way. This is sort of like making enthropy arguments about the earth; when you have a huge source of energy (and subsequent source of enthropy) flodding you, the enthropy books of the earth aren't going to "balance" into positive enthropy all the time. Likewise when you are standing next to a source of infinite love and mercy, you sort of get with the program.

So are you really jealous because God is generous?

[2dimes]

So are you really jealous because God is generous?

Isn't everyone? Jesus spoke on that, I would put you in the list of people that are most likely farmiliar with it.

[khazalid]

That's why I said "a greater demi-god." The Vatican is peppered with statues and pictures of Saints, and Patron Saints. When you are praying to someone other than God to help fix a problem, then you are taking away from your worship of God. And the Bible didn't name all the Patron Saints for us to direct our attentions to, human beings did that.

Before I look into your sentence, I need to look into the English.

Pray: Etymology: Middle English preyen, prayen, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, entreaty, prayer; akin to Old English gefr[AE]ge hearsay, report, fricgan, frignan, frnan to ask, inquire, Old High German frga question, frgn to ask, Old Norse frtt question, fregna to inquire, find out, Gothic fraihman to find out by inquiry, Tocharian A prak- to ask, Sanskrit prs interrogation, prcchati he asks

So "praying" is "asking" someone. Have you ever actually seen a prayer? Prayers to the holy ones ask the holy one to ask God on their behalf. We know that Paul writes that the requests (prayers) of the holy ones (saints) have great effect.

hate to state the obvious but etymology and actual, present usage of a given word are very often different things. not that i'm siding or anything, but i've seen you cobble that bullshit together a few times now

[b.k. barunt]

Your reference to the Brazen Serpent (Nehushtan) is a good example, but you omit the crucial reference where King Hezekiah broke it in pieces because people worshipped it as an idol (II Kings 18:4). That was obviously not God's intention for it when He had Moses create it. Regardless of your semantic based argument, most people would agree that icons are worshipped by many people. Maybe not by all but then the Brazen Serpent wasn't worshipped by all. Hezekiah destroyed it because some of the people were worshipping it and so it had become an abomination. Hezekiah was a prime example of an iconoclast and the Scripture clearly states that his actions pleased God.

But the fact that people took an image and later made it an idol, which was treated as a god and given true worship, does not make the creation of the image or the honest veneration (as opposed to worship) against the commandments. The iconoclasts went so far as to even destroy decorations around the churches. Hezeekiah was not an iconoclast; he destroyed something because people had turned it into an idol, and the best way to keep people from making something an idol is to destroy the thing people are making an idol.

Icons, on the other hand, are not idols.

Well i can agree with you to a certain extent as to excessive behavior like destroying decorations and such. However you should keep in mind that such excessive behavior was often a reaction - as with Cromwell for instance - to the excess and idolatry that the church had deteriorated into. People tend to love trappings and traditions in place of the true gospel of self denial that Jesus preached. If you look at the Anglican or Orthodox church you'll see the same hypocritical Pharisees and Scribes that Jesus called a "generation of vipers". And let's not even bother to mention the ridiculous abomination that is Roman Catholicism.

Where did the fancy robes and ornate churches come from? Jesus never advocated building any big temples - that was Old Testament and ended with the abolishment of the priesthood. In the New Testament church the people met "from house to house" and the services were supposed to be a time of sharing together in which all members took part (I Corinthians 14:26). If one of the apostles was in town then he might take a large part of the meeting to speak as Paul did when he put the poor guy to sleep that fell out of the window, but it was not the norm for one man to monopolize the service as is the norm today.

The modern day church is an ersatz church that has replaced the simplicity of the gospel with a lot of religious bullshit. The people love it because they don't have to "lay down their lives" in any manner of speaking. They only have to go to church, sing a few hymns, pay their tithes and then go on about the business of immersing themselves in their selfish, comfortable lives. No wonder they're scared shitless of anyone who takes the Bible literally - to do so brings an immediate indictment of the organized church as a ridiculous counterfeit of the real thing.


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

Patron Saints are named and used in a way that sounds like a great Demi-God or something.

Catholics do not worship saints. (Please if you know of anyone who sacrificed a bull to St. Anyone, post the link here.) In fact, let's stop the sloppy english terms right here and now. "Saints" means "holy ones." (Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin sanctus, from Latin, sacred, pure, holy, from past participle of sancire to make sacred, ordain, establish ) It does not per se mean "dead people in heaven."

"Catholics don't worship saints"??? NegroPuhleeeze! Let's skip all the bullshit about semantics and etymology and cut right to the chase - when you pray to something or someone that is a form of worship. Period. You don't need to sacrifice a fooking bull to someone to worship them.

When Constantine ended the persecution of the Christian Church and made it the new religion of state he had two options. Have a fooking civil war on his hands or somehow figure out a way to incorporate the Christian and Pagan churches. This is where you get practices that you'll never find in the Bible (unless of course they are rebuked as a pagan practice such as Christmas trees or praying to the "Queen of Heaven") like rosaries, worship of Mary, repetitious prayers (novenas) and yes, praying to "saints". The Pagans had different demigods to pray to for different situations ("point men" amirite?). This was a very basic part of any pagan religion - delegation of power as it were. That's what the pantheon was all about.

You can't just take away someone's everyday gods in such an abrupt manner, so they just changed the names in most cases to those of Christian martyrs. Most cases mind you - some, like "St. Dionysus" they just got lazy or whatever and kept the name of the original demigod. The practice of praying to demigods remained but since they were now calling them by their new "Christian" names that made it all copacetic. Lol.

The same with worship of Mary. The most popular and revered part of the Pagan religion was the worship of the Mother Goddess. In the Roman church this Mothergod was known as Diana, but she manifested herself to other cultures in various names. In the book of Jeremiah you can find a couple verses where the prophet rebukes the people for offering sacrifices to "the Queen of Heaven". So whaddawedo with this? Well that's easy enough - they can continue to worship the Mothergoddess, but now her name is Mary - that'll work. And it did!

You say people don't "worship" the saints or Mary when they pray to them. Let me just say that i disagree. Completely.

Thus having one person being the "point person" for a specific type of request is no different than having one person be the point person for all questions you may have on automotive repair. (He might not be able to fix your problem, but he knows who to ask and how.)

We're not talking about automotive repair, but if we were and God was your automotive repairman He could most likely fix anything without having to consult any specialists. If God is truly all powerful then He doesn't need fooking "point men" acting as intermediaries to help Him out. Lol. However, that's just my opinion. If you want to see what the Bible says about it take a look at I Timothy 2:5. Jesus is the only acceptable "point man" that God allows - that is of course if you take it for what it says (literally).


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

Prayer: asking god to break the laws of the universe just for you.

Have you ever studied universal law?

Then how do you know if any laws are broken.

[john9blue]

So with that, let's go to the communion of saints.

The Communion of Saints (in Latin, communio sanctorum), when referred to persons, is the spiritual union of all members of the Christian Church living and the dead, those on earth, in heaven, and, for those who believe in purgatory, those also who are in that state of purification. They are all part of a single "mystical body", with Christ as the head, in which each member contributes to the good of all and shares in the welfare of all.

smells like SOCIALISM

It sort of is, in an odd way. This is sort of like making enthropy arguments about the earth; when you have a huge source of energy (and subsequent source of enthropy) flodding you, the enthropy books of the earth aren't going to "balance" into positive enthropy all the time. Likewise when you are standing next to a source of infinite love and mercy, you sort of get with the program.

So are you really jealous because God is generous?

i was being facetious. of course since these are holy, perfect saints we are talking about, then socialism works just fine. in the real world... different story.

[tzor]

Patron Saints are named and used in a way that sounds like a great Demi-God or something.

Catholics do not worship saints. (Please if you know of anyone who sacrificed a bull to St. Anyone, post the link here.) In fact, let's stop the sloppy english terms right here and now. "Saints" means "holy ones." (Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin sanctus, from Latin, sacred, pure, holy, from past participle of sancire to make sacred, ordain, establish ) It does not per se mean "dead people in heaven."

"Catholics don't worship saints"??? NegroPuhleeeze! Let's skip all the bullshit about semantics and etymology and cut right to the chase - when you pray to something or someone that is a form of worship. Period. You don't need to sacrifice a fooking bull to someone to worship them.

No B.K. you did not “skip the bullshit” you applied the bull shit. You have said, in effect, when you ask someone something you, in effect, treating that someone as a god and offering a sacrifice to that person. That is nothing but bullshit.

So let’s get down to the brass tacks, how do you “honor” your father and mother, without it becoming “worship” of mother and father? The commandments are not a logic trap; your sloppy definition of words, further aggravated by arrogant bastards who placed their own reasoning above the “pillar and bulwark of truth” that Paul describes as the church.

When Constantine ended the persecution of the Christian Church and made it the new religion of state he had two options. Have a fooking civil war on his hands or somehow figure out a way to incorporate the Christian and Pagan churches. This is where you get practices that you'll never find in the Bible (unless of course they are rebuked as a pagan practice such as Christmas trees or praying to the "Queen of Heaven") like rosaries, worship of Mary, repetitious prayers (novenas) and yes, praying to "saints". The Pagans had different demigods to pray to for different situations ("point men" amirite?). This was a very basic part of any pagan religion - delegation of power as it were. That's what the pantheon was all about.

Ah it's the old “blame Constantine” argument. (Best done to the tune of “Blame Canada”) But what if it found earlier than Constantine? Well let’s go to the video tape with Catholic Answers

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (Hermas, The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

[comic boy]

Bk
Would it be your view that the Gnostics were in fact following a course more in line with the teachings of Jesus . Should they in fact be only considered heretical in regard to the established church of the time rather than to the purer tenets of early Christianity.

[b.k. barunt]

Patron Saints are named and used in a way that sounds like a great Demi-God or something.

Catholics do not worship saints. (Please if you know of anyone who sacrificed a bull to St. Anyone, post the link here.) In fact, let's stop the sloppy english terms right here and now. "Saints" means "holy ones." (Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin sanctus, from Latin, sacred, pure, holy, from past participle of sancire to make sacred, ordain, establish ) It does not per se mean "dead people in heaven."

"Catholics don't worship saints"??? NegroPuhleeeze! Let's skip all the bullshit about semantics and etymology and cut right to the chase - when you pray to something or someone that is a form of worship. Period. You don't need to sacrifice a fooking bull to someone to worship them.

No B.K. you did not “skip the bullshit” you applied the bull shit. You have said, in effect, when you ask someone something you, in effect, treating that someone as a god and offering a sacrifice to that person. That is nothing but bullshit.

So now in a desperate attempt to save face you purposely misquote me. I never said "and offering a sacrifice to that person" as anyone can see from my original quote which you thoughtlessly forgot to delete before you misquoted it. Lol.

So let’s get down to the brass tacks, how do you “honor” your father and mother, without it becoming “worship” of mother and father?

NegroPuhleeeeze! Do i really have to answer that one??

When Constantine ended the persecution of the Christian Church and made it the new religion of state he had two options. Have a fooking civil war on his hands or somehow figure out a way to incorporate the Christian and Pagan churches. This is where you get practices that you'll never find in the Bible (unless of course they are rebuked as a pagan practice such as Christmas trees or praying to the "Queen of Heaven") like rosaries, worship of Mary, repetitious prayers (novenas) and yes, praying to "saints". The Pagans had different demigods to pray to for different situations ("point men" amirite?). This was a very basic part of any pagan religion - delegation of power as it were. That's what the pantheon was all about.

Ah it's the old “blame Constantine” argument.

Hrmmmm . . . well yes. You find that strange? Here, i suppose i must indulge you with a bit of spoon feeding:
We're talking about the Roman Catholic Church. Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church, so yes, he obviously has to take the blame for its inception. Still don't get it? Ok, if we were talking about the Lutheran Church then Martin Luther would have to take some blame. If we were talking about the Methodist Church then the old "blame John Wesley" argument would no doubt arise. If we were talking about the Christian Scientists then Mary Baker Eddy's name would probably pop up. If we were talking about the Seventh Day Adventists some blame would eventually fall on Ellen White. Jehovah Witnesses = Charles Russel. Mormons = Joseph Smith. Is any of this getting through to you?

But what if it found earlier than Constantine? Well let’s go to the video tape with Catholic Answers

Let's not. Strangely enough, i don't think that videotape was really made before Constantine. If you'd like to cite from an "earlier than Constantine" source i would suggest the Bible.

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

This is starting to get tedious now - an etymological afficionado like yourself should not need me to explain the difference between praying with someone and praying for someone.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

No one knows who these "24 elders" are. The Scripture gives no explanation. Theologians have argued and theorized about it for hundreds of years. Therefore i for one am extremely impressed that you've managed to figure it out (before you let that go to your head, look up "sarcasm" in the dictionary.)

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Did you actually think no one would notice you adding your own words "guaranteed intercessory access" to the text here? Ironic that you should mention this passage though, seeing as you're defending a church whose priests bugger these "little ones" with relative impunity on a daily basis.

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

[/quote]

Yes i agree that Christians here on earth should pray for one another. No i don't agree with your leaping from that back to praying to "saints" in heaven.


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

Bk
Would it be your view that the Gnostics were in fact following a course more in line with the teachings of Jesus . Should they in fact be only considered heretical in regard to the established church of the time rather than to the purer tenets of early Christianity.

No. Tzor's explanation of Gnosticism was spot on and as far as i can see historically accurate. The tenets of early Christianity (i.e. the Scriptures) are diametrically opposed to Gnosticism.


Honibaz

[tzor]

So let’s get down to the brass tacks, how do you “honor” your father and mother, without it becoming “worship” of mother and father?

NegroPuhleeeeze! Do i really have to answer that one??

Yes you really have to answer this one. The difference between the modern definitions of “honor” and “worship” and the confusion between the two is generally what confuses most people like you. Catholics do not worship the saints; honor them yes, because they have gone before us and in faith rest with Christ, but never worship.

We give honor (dulia) to the saints because of their faith, for they (as well as ourselves) are all members of the body of Christ, temples of the Holy Spirit within us. We give special honor (hyper dulia) to the Mother of Christ, because Christ gave her to the entire church on the cross through John.




Constantine did not “start” the Roman Catholic Church. That is indeed so far wrong that it is not even funny. First of all, he got the idea to use a variant of the cross to identify his army “a slanted letter X with the top of its head bent round” in 312. This was also later described as the transposition of the Greek letters Chi (X) and Rho (P) the first two letters of Christos. In 313 he was a co-signer of the Edict of Milan. Note that the original edict of toleration was issued by the emperor Galerius in 311, although persecutions resumed by Maximinus. At this time the empire was still divided between Constantine and Licinius. Licinius reneged on the edict in 320, so now this became a political football. Constantine succeeded in defeating Licinius in 324 and accused him of treason and had him hanged in 325 making Constantine the sole emperor in 324. He did not become a Christian until his deathbed in 337.

Constantine did not patronize Christianity alone, however. After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built to celebrate; the arch is decorated with images of Victoria and sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, or Hercules, but contains no Christian symbolism. In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the "venerable day of the sun", referencing the esoteric eastern sun-worship which Aurelian had helped introduce, and his coinage still carried the symbols of the sun-cult until 324. Even after the pagan gods had disappeared from the coinage, Christian symbols appear only as Constantine's personal attributes: the chi rho between his hands or on his labarum, but never on the coin itself. Even when Constantine dedicated the new capital of Constantinople, which became the seat of Byzantine Christianity for a millennium, he did so wearing the Apollonian sun-rayed Diadem.

On the other hand his mother Helena was a major Christian. I think a lot of his motivation may have come from requests from his mother. She may have been the key to a number of traditions that linger on in the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the notion of pilgrimages; (although that is also a Jewish tradition) she did do a lot of “religious tourism” in the Holy Land and the retrieval of relics. But these things do not directly relate to the tradition of asking the holy ones for intercession.

One last point, even under a united Rome, Constantine ruled from the eastern side of the empire, not from ancient Rome, which is why there is a city named after him in the east. (Because that is where his mother came from and where he ruled from.) So he is “Orthodox” at best and as we can show not even that.

[tzor]

This is starting to get tedious now - an etymological afficionado like yourself should not need me to explain the difference between praying with someone and praying for someone.

Ah the old Catholic / Protestant - And/Or - Paradox. The later insist on using "or" the former insist on using "and." Please tell me the passage where we are forbidden to pray "with" each other. We pray with each other and for each other. This is what the communion of saints is all about.