Obama Drops "Creator" from Declaration, Now he Axes Motto

[jefjef]

He didn't believe in a creator.

Have you never read or heard of Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It was envisioned and authored by TJ. The fact that he created it was one of three of his life accomplishments he had engraved on his head stone.

You should find and read it before you make inaccurate statements like this.

[Metsfanmax]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

[Phatscotty]

He didn't believe in a creator.

Have you never read or heard of Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It was envisioned and authored by TJ. The fact that he created it was one of three of his life accomplishments he had engraved on his head stone.

You should find and read it before you make inaccurate statements like this.

In all fairness. I remember being "taught" Jefferson was an atheist in highschool and a lot of talking about it in college. This myth is pumped through the educational system for a reason, so those who control education (top of pyramid) can change the constitution and weaken the power of the individual and transfer that power to the state

[Phatscotty]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

[PLAYER57832]

He didn't believe in a creator.

Have you never read or heard of Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It was envisioned and authored by TJ. The fact that he created it was one of three of his life accomplishments he had engraved on his head stone.

You should find and read it before you make inaccurate statements like this.

In all fairness. I remember being "taught" Jefferson was an atheist in highschool and a lot of talking about it in college. This myth is pumped through the educational system for a reason, so those who control education (top of pyramid) can change the constitution and weaken the power of the individual and transfer that power to the state

In truth, Jefferson was considered an Agnostic, though people debate each side (atheistic/belief in creator) with some evidence.

But my laughter is about your "this myth is pumped through the educational system". I am a Christian, but if you want to place blame for false myths in education, begin with the WASP ideas. This "idea" that education is about atheism is paraded by people who want THEIR religion to dominate. There are absolutely teachers and even districts where Atheism or secularism dominate, but it is hardly the pervasive and unified movement you claim. The movement is from hard right Christians and those who feel the hard right will meet their personnal agendas.

[Frigidus]

my understanding is that he was a deist. that would mean that he believed in a creator.

and yes i dislike (modern) atheism because i find it to be hypocritical and deceptive. feel free to invent other reasons though, as long as your worldview isn't brought into question i think you'll be fine.

Hm. I suppose I might have misheard about Jefferson. But I'll still say that your belief system is infinitely more hypocritical, as you apply different standards to evidence for God than you do anything else in the entire world. But hey, if you have to sneer at any comment an atheist ever makes about religion just to make yourself feel more confident in your beliefs, go ahead.

[Metsfanmax]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

I meant that he didn't preface the comment by saying "In the words of our forefathers..." He simply paraphrased it, since the reference to the "Creator" had nothing to do with the argument he was making in the speech. It's only wrong if he claimed to be directly quoting the Declaration of Independence.

[Phatscotty]

He didn't believe in a creator.

Have you never read or heard of Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It was envisioned and authored by TJ. The fact that he created it was one of three of his life accomplishments he had engraved on his head stone.

You should find and read it before you make inaccurate statements like this.

In all fairness. I remember being "taught" Jefferson was an atheist in highschool and a lot of talking about it in college. This myth is pumped through the educational system for a reason, so those who control education (top of pyramid) can change the constitution and weaken the power of the individual and transfer that power to the state

In truth, Jefferson was considered an Agnostic, though people debate each side (atheistic/belief in creator) with some evidence.

But my laughter is about your "this myth is pumped through the educational system". I am a Christian, but if you want to place blame for false myths in education, begin with the WASP ideas. This "idea" that education is about atheism is paraded by people who want THEIR religion to dominate. There are absolutely teachers and even districts where Atheism or secularism dominate, but it is hardly the pervasive and unified movement you claim. The movement is from hard right Christians and those who feel the hard right will meet their personnal agendas.

whoa whoa whoa, you are putting all kinds of words in my mouth.

The debate was never between god/no god (lolz)

President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997 [URL: http://www.monticello.org/resources/int ... igion.html].

Although Jefferson was never an atheist, he was indeed a champion of religious freedom, and the "Positive Atheism" website has a page of quotes by Jefferson at:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefframe.htm

[Woodruff]

Someone has to stick up for Jefferson...

Yeah, Jefferson just couldn't get enough of his "creator"...

Um....you are of course aware it was Jefferson pen who wrote "that they are endowed by their Creator..."

Could you go on your point a bit further before I pull out my Jefferson Bible?

He didn't believe in a creator.

I am pretty sure he did (I have a T.J collection). Jefferson was not even close to an atheist.

I do understand however that atheist's need to believe that, just as much as America haters understand if they can separate the country from god then the consitution will lose influence

I am not a believer in God, though I don't mind the references to God and such in our historical documents (they're historical documents, after all, and should be viewed in that context)...same with references on our buildings and such. Anyway, I don't at all believe that separating the country from God will affect the influence of the Constitution at all. What affects the influence of the Constitution is the idiots readily discounting it "to get what they want". It has nothing at all to do with God or references to God.

He didn't believe in a creator.

Have you never read or heard of Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It was envisioned and authored by TJ. The fact that he created it was one of three of his life accomplishments he had engraved on his head stone.

You should find and read it before you make inaccurate statements like this.

In all fairness. I remember being "taught" Jefferson was an atheist in highschool and a lot of talking about it in college. This myth is pumped through the educational system for a reason, so those who control education (top of pyramid) can change the constitution and weaken the power of the individual and transfer that power to the state

Well...other than the multitudinous lunatics who want to teach creationism in schools, of course.

[Phatscotty]

I am not a believer in God, though I don't mind the references to God and such in our historical documents (they're historical documents, after all, and should be viewed in that context)...same with references on our buildings and such. Anyway, I don't at all believe that separating the country from God will affect the influence of the Constitution at all. What affects the influence of the Constitution is the idiots readily discounting it "to get what they want". It has nothing at all to do with God or references to God.

I completely agree with all that. However, my main point is that once we take god out/allow god to be removed, that puts MAN in. Man made rights are much easier to trample/subdue/reverse/take away.

example - "The signers of the Declaration were all racist slave owners...." Which is about the most untrue thing I have ever heard. There were just as many who were abhorrently against slavery and proclaimed in public as such. I will be called a liar for this, which hopefully proves my point...If it is easy to dismiss the founding fathers, then it is easy to dismiss what they wrote/what they said.

It's also just as easy to incorporate a 80 year cycle of 4 generations (education system is a huge part), each generation being dumbed down further than the previous, with built in reinforcement from the previous generation in the household. The fourth generation, with third generation parents, could give 2 shits about about the 1800's, or the reasons for the civil war or the emancipation proclamation. The north won, the south is racist, and Lincoln gets all the credit. end of story? or not? Today, the fourth generation might be/is wondering...."why work?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuqJJMSK15U

little nifties from the fifties in the sundance sweet
sexy ladies, from the eighties, who are indiscreet

Side by side, they are glorified. Where the underworld can meet the elite

1933's 42nd street. Funded and approved by FDR. complete with reference to Teddy Roosevelt's/wall street bankers plans with the set up of the federal reserve. Remember when Teddy ran with the moose party? The first generation will tell you "So that Woodrow Wilson would be elected, and we could finally create the central bank. But we were told not to worry, because income taxes would never go over 5%" The third generation is contempt with 20%-50%.




The "Crazy Quilt" still covers America

[Woodruff]

I am not a believer in God, though I don't mind the references to God and such in our historical documents (they're historical documents, after all, and should be viewed in that context)...same with references on our buildings and such. Anyway, I don't at all believe that separating the country from God will affect the influence of the Constitution at all. What affects the influence of the Constitution is the idiots readily discounting it "to get what they want". It has nothing at all to do with God or references to God.

I completely agree with all that. However, my main point is that once we take god out/allow god to be removed, that puts MAN in. Man made rights are much easier to trample/subdue/reverse/take away.

In my view, this isn't a matter of "God or man", because my view is that the Constitution largely contains natural humanistic rights, not "God given" rights and the specific view of the founders on that issue is largely irrelevant. Whatever their reasons (religious or humanistic), they got it right and that's all that matters. God didn't bestow these rights on us, our Constitution did. It's an issue of our being vigilant against these sorts of attempts. It's our responsibility to make certain that our school curricula contain accuracy. It's our responsibility to speak out against attempts to "change" the Constitution without amendment.

[AAFitz]

This is what ripping on Obama has come to?

I would not call it ripping on Obama, but I would call it defining Obamas beliefs, since we know so little about him.

Is that okay?

We dont know his grades/qualifications - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=125404

We don't know his religion - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... amas+faith

We don't know his voting record - "In the Illinois state Senate, Senator Obama voted 130 times 'present.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/artic ... ent_votes/

I assume he is going to ask America for their votes in 2012. We should know who we are voting for. Is he the strong Christian he was last week, or just forgetful about the one line in the Declaration that EVERY American knows?

that doesnt say shit about his beliefs. It is simply an effort to not alienate anyone with unalienable rights, especially those who dont happen to believe in a creator per-se. For all we know, he believes the easter bunny is the creator. He simply used a generic interpretation of the quote so as to not offend anyone...well, except those that are offended by every word he says, because they are uneducated, ignorant racists....not saying you are one though, just that they are out there.

[Phatscotty]

worrying about not offending racists and ignorants is not a very wise way to craft one's speeches. Telegrhaphs weakness.

[AAFitz]

worrying about not offending racists and ignorants is not a very wise way to craft one's speeches. Telegrhaphs weakness.

LOL, thats why as I said, he doesnt care about those, who would complain no matter what he says anyways, and prepares the speech for the rest. Guess we know your at least one of the ignorant ones.

[ViperOverLord]

This is what ripping on Obama has come to?

I would not call it ripping on Obama, but I would call it defining Obamas beliefs, since we know so little about him.

Is that okay?

We dont know his grades/qualifications - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=125404

We don't know his religion - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... amas+faith

We don't know his voting record - "In the Illinois state Senate, Senator Obama voted 130 times 'present.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/artic ... ent_votes/

I assume he is going to ask America for their votes in 2012. We should know who we are voting for. Is he the strong Christian he was last week, or just forgetful about the one line in the Declaration that EVERY American knows?

that doesnt say shit about his beliefs. It is simply an effort to not alienate anyone with unalienable rights, especially those who dont happen to believe in a creator per-se. For all we know, he believes the easter bunny is the creator. He simply used a generic interpretation of the quote so as to not offend anyone...well, except those that are offended by every word he says, because they are uneducated, ignorant racists....not saying you are one though, just that they are out there.

MISSION NOT ACCOMPLISHED - I'm alienated by his actions both as a Christian and as an American. - But in any event I reject the notion that it's merely a sensitivity issue for him. He's making a clear statement that he does not think the term God should be invoked in government service (though he conveniently had no problem doing that when he campaigned).

[Phatscotty]

worrying about not offending racists and ignorants is not a very wise way to craft one's speeches. Telegrhaphs weakness.

LOL, thats why as I said, he doesnt care about those, who would complain no matter what he says anyways, and prepares the speech for the rest. Guess we know your at least one of the ignorant ones.

If he did not care, he would not take cautions to not offend...

[guardian1357]

I don't care if he believes in god or not....are we not looking at the issue...

the president of our country misquoted the document he is supposed to be upholding through the power of his office...

[Phatscotty]

I don't care if he believes in god or not....are we not looking at the issue...

the president of our country misquoted the document he is supposed to be upholding through the power of his office...

Good point, and refreshing. I also do not care if he believes in God or not. I do care if he lies about it though

[john9blue]

Guess we know your at least one of the ignorant ones.

I lol'd.

[MeDeFe]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

I meant that he didn't preface the comment by saying "In the words of our forefathers..." He simply paraphrased it, since the reference to the "Creator" had nothing to do with the argument he was making in the speech. It's only wrong if he claimed to be directly quoting the Declaration of Independence.

I'm quoting this because I think it's necessary to draw attention to it. It's highly pertinent but has been ignored so far, possibly because there is nothing with which to counter it. Those who claim Obama is secretly out to remove god from public life or whatever are given a reasonable explanation other than their pet conspiracy theory. Seriously guys, don't you have better things to do? Like mutilate kittens or something?

[ViperOverLord]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

I meant that he didn't preface the comment by saying "In the words of our forefathers..." He simply paraphrased it, since the reference to the "Creator" had nothing to do with the argument he was making in the speech. It's only wrong if he claimed to be directly quoting the Declaration of Independence.

I'm quoting this because I think it's necessary to draw attention to it. It's highly pertinent but has been ignored so far, possibly because there is nothing with which to counter it. Those who claim Obama is secretly out to remove god from public life or whatever are given a reasonable explanation other than their pet conspiracy theory. Seriously guys, don't you have better things to do? Like mutilate kittens or something?

You think the assertion that he 'misquoted' the DOI isn't 'pertinent?' First off it was not a misquote. It was a calculated maneuver. Obama would not happen to leave that one part out. Therefore it is a pertinent omission.

Also it is 'pertinent' because he indeed was intentionally omitting the term 'Creator' when quoting the DOI. One does not need to claim to directly quote the DOI - we've all heard the words. He was clearly quoting it and if he wasn't then he was engaging in a little thing known as plagiarism. Naturally, I don't think he was engaging in plagiarism because the fact is that any of us with half a brain could tell he was referencing the DOI.

Also, people should feel free to claim that this is not a high priority matter if that's their take. So be it if that's what one thinks. But I am going to have to take slight umbrage to the idea that people that consider this a worthy and valid topic are merely engaging in 'pet conspiracy theories.' Secularism vs. Traditionalism/Spirituality is a realistic battle in America. If it wasn't something of a big deal then what is the f'ing big deal of Obama just using the word 'Creator'? See you can't consider it small for one faction and not for the other. That is hardly fair and those that have their valid opinions should not be so easily dismissed or relegated to 'conspiracy theorist' status.

[BigBallinStalin]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

I meant that he didn't preface the comment by saying "In the words of our forefathers..." He simply paraphrased it, since the reference to the "Creator" had nothing to do with the argument he was making in the speech. It's only wrong if he claimed to be directly quoting the Declaration of Independence.

I'm quoting this because I think it's necessary to draw attention to it. It's highly pertinent but has been ignored so far, possibly because there is nothing with which to counter it. Those who claim Obama is secretly out to remove god from public life or whatever are given a reasonable explanation other than their pet conspiracy theory. Seriously guys, don't you have better things to do? Like mutilate kittens or something?

/me looks up from the body of a half-eaten kitten.

What happened?

[Metsfanmax]

You think the assertion that he 'misquoted' the DOI isn't 'pertinent?' First off it was not a misquote. It was a calculated maneuver. Obama would not happen to leave that one part out. Therefore it is a pertinent omission.

This does not address my point. If he were quoting the Declaration, then he would have said "In the words of the Declaration of Independence..." It is not an omission. It is simply a paraphrasing of the document.

Also it is 'pertinent' because he indeed was intentionally omitting the term 'Creator' when quoting the DOI. One does not need to claim to directly quote the DOI - we've all heard the words. He was clearly quoting it and if he wasn't then he was engaging in a little thing known as plagiarism. Naturally, I don't think he was engaging in plagiarism because the fact is that any of us with half a brain could tell he was referencing the DOI.

He was referencing the Declaration - yes. That's true. But he was not quoting it, and that's why this argument has no merit. His point in the speech (which is why context is always important) was that this idea of all men being equal was one of the founding principles of America. Exactly why we are all equal, i.e. whether our rights are God-given or simply based in human society, is irrelevant, because this wasn't a speech about God in society.

Also, people should feel free to claim that this is not a high priority matter if that's their take. So be it if that's what one thinks. But I am going to have to take slight umbrage to the idea that people that consider this a worthy and valid topic are merely engaging in 'pet conspiracy theories.' Secularism vs. Traditionalism/Spirituality is a realistic battle in America. If it wasn't something of a big deal then what is the f'ing big deal of Obama just using the word 'Creator'? See you can't consider it small for one faction and not for the other. That is hardly fair and those that have their valid opinions should not be so easily dismissed or relegated to 'conspiracy theorist' status.

There is no "f'ing big deal." The only people who are making this a big deal are the ones who are upset that he left out the Creator reference. So I ask you - why is this such a problem?

[PLAYER57832]

This thread is absurd. The OP is criticizing Obama for misquoting something he didn't claim to quote in the first place.

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

I meant that he didn't preface the comment by saying "In the words of our forefathers..." He simply paraphrased it, since the reference to the "Creator" had nothing to do with the argument he was making in the speech. It's only wrong if he claimed to be directly quoting the Declaration of Independence.

I'm quoting this because I think it's necessary to draw attention to it. It's highly pertinent but has been ignored so far, possibly because there is nothing with which to counter it. Those who claim Obama is secretly out to remove god from public life or whatever are given a reasonable explanation other than their pet conspiracy theory. Seriously guys, don't you have better things to do? Like mutilate kittens or something?

You think the assertion that he 'misquoted' the DOI isn't 'pertinent?' First off it was not a misquote. It was a calculated maneuver.

I did not realize you were graced with mind reading abilities! Must be a great burden.

[Woodruff]

Sure, someone should ask Obama about this. Will anyone? Probably not.

what do you mean "he didnt claim to quote.."? He was quoted. (absurd?)

I meant that he didn't preface the comment by saying "In the words of our forefathers..." He simply paraphrased it, since the reference to the "Creator" had nothing to do with the argument he was making in the speech. It's only wrong if he claimed to be directly quoting the Declaration of Independence.

I'm quoting this because I think it's necessary to draw attention to it. It's highly pertinent but has been ignored so far, possibly because there is nothing with which to counter it. Those who claim Obama is secretly out to remove god from public life or whatever are given a reasonable explanation other than their pet conspiracy theory. Seriously guys, don't you have better things to do? Like mutilate kittens or something?

You think the assertion that he 'misquoted' the DOI isn't 'pertinent?' First off it was not a misquote. It was a calculated maneuver.

I did not realize you were graced with mind reading abilities! Must be a great burden.

You've obviously missed a few threads he's been involved in, then.