Obama Drops "Creator" from Declaration, Now he Axes Motto

[jefjef]

It's attitudes like this that continues to f*ck up the Middle East.

Actually it's well placed American ordnance that continues to f*ck up the Middle East.

[Phatscotty]

It's attitudes like this that continues to f*ck up the Middle East.

Actually it's well placed American ordnance that continues to f*ck up the Middle East.

I thought it was for resources and monetary hegemony. Religion is always the scapegoat, to control/program the masses.

[Lionz]

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin ... o+seclorum

http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

What if there's a secular themed lullaby being played now?

[guardian1357]

lionz please...stop.

To the others.

It is simply foolish to debate wether or not our nation was found on christian principles.

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

[Gypsys Kiss]

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

Blood, mostly. Same as any other powerful nation.

[ViperOverLord]

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

Blood, mostly. Same as any other powerful nation.

Grow up! The USA has brought freedom to more millions of people then any nation in history. There's no need for us to apologize that we're not like the Brits of old sitting around doing a bunch of infighting, biding our time before the Vikings come and rape the shiz out of our land and women. -- Speak softly and carry a big stick: You can wipe your ass with that all you want but it won't change who we be yo.

[PLAYER57832]

lionz please...stop.

To the others.

It is simply foolish to debate wether or not our nation was found on christian principles.

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

Yes, because western society has its roots in Christianity.

BUT, as we have progressed, we have also greatly embraced many other faiths and religions. In fact, an irony is that many of the things right-wingers now like to tout as "Christian" values are either plain human values (take care of your family, teach your children to respect others, etc.) OR go back well before Christianity, perhaps even Judaism. (there are consequences to harming others... etc.)

The problem is that too much of what they promote as "Christian" really has little if anything to do with true Christianity. AND, has very little to do with general world morality or what will benefit society as a whole (as opposed to benefiting a few who are in power).

Christ did NOT teach people intolerance or to demand that every last person on earth follow the standards of Christianity. He did not, because he realized that people have to come of free choice to their beliefs if they will be true to them. Our history pretty much illustrates the same thing.

[Gypsys Kiss]

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

Blood, mostly. Same as any other powerful nation.

Grow up! The USA has brought freedom to more millions of people then any nation in history. There's no need for us to apologize that we're not like the Brits of old sitting around doing a bunch of infighting, biding our time before the Vikings come and rape the shiz out of our land and women. -- Speak softly and carry a big stick: You can wipe your ass with that all you want but it won't change who we be yo.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just thick. I said like any powerful nation.... that includes Britain of old, you sad deluded prat. Any nation that assumes it is all powerfull, spills blood. It spills blood in copius amounts. And in 1,000 years you and your nation will be so much dust blowing in the wind, living on past memories, the same as any other 'great empire'. And before you get on your oh so high horse, that includes the British Empire.

And when it comes to setting people free, how many Zimbabweans have you set free? How many Darfurians? Do you know where Darfur is? Without the aid of google? And where would you be if the South had won? Freedom is an illusion, just one faction imposing its beliefs on another. You need to get your head out of your arse and realise that, you'll be happier, believe me. DO NOT make the mistake of believing you are free.

Dont tell me to grow up, son. I'm in the gutter looking up, and I know there is only one way to go. You on the other hand, are in for a big surprise......if you live long enough.

it won't change who we be yo.

I've read countless posts by you, and I never realised you were black.

Oh, and read some more history so you know the facts.

[Woodruff]

Well, it is not a Muslim Nation, nor Jewish. Christianity dominates not just America, but the entire Western Hemisphere.

Why does a religion have to be involved at all in the definition of a nation?

because of the simple fact that someone might ask why Obama would say something like "America is not a Christian nation."
In other words, because Obama took the initiative to define what religion a nation isnt...
Dont make me bust out the Broom woody

Why do you need the broom...to sweep up all the crap you're throwing out? Or were you going to answer my question?

[Woodruff]

It isn't a Christian nation.

Whatever. This ignorance about who and what we are as a nation is one of the biggest reasons why we have managed to screw up everyone else in the world because of the false notion that we can divorce our constitutional democratic system from the European / Christian roots that undermine it. It's attitudes like this that continues to f*ck up the Middle East.

The belief that the United States isn't a Christian nation is ignorant?
The belief that the United States isn't a Christian nation continues to f*ck up the Middle East?

My belief in the Constitution has nothing at all to do with religion, but it does seem to have given me a better understanding of it than some around here.

[Woodruff]

lionz please...stop.

To the others.

It is simply foolish to debate wether or not our nation was found on christian principles.

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

What our nation has AT ITS ROOTS is the belief that everyone has freedom of religion, NOT that there is a specific religion involved.

[tzor]

Yes, because western society has its roots in Christianity.

BUT, as we have progressed, we have also greatly embraced many other faiths and religions.

We have? Well then ... name one. I dare you.

Not have we not embraced other faiths, we would not embrace Christian faiths at odds with what the majority considered Christianity.

We sent in the army to eliminate polygamy from the Mormon faith.
We wrote an amendment to the constitution to keep those who thought drinking wasn't a sin from exercising that right.

"We" have done a very poor job of "embracing" other faiths and religions; supression is a far more accurate term.

[tzor]

One of the things that most people don’t understand about the people at the time of the founding of the United States was that, for them, “religion” was personal. It was the “church” (the organization of religion) that was the problem. Generally speaking, there were only minor differences between the various protestant sects of Christianity. (In many places in the colonies, both Jews and Catholics were denied rights. Muslims were not present in any numbers to be even considered.)

Even then, the people who fled the old world because of the establishment of state churches that forced their religious model and expectations on others in turn often did the exact same thing in the new world. New England was notorious for that. State churches continued even after the signing of the Constitution which prohibited a federal church. In Connecticut, Catholics continued to pay taxes to the “state church” (it wasn’t the Catholic Church) well into the 19th century.

[BigBallinStalin]

Yes, because western society has its roots in Christianity.

BUT, as we have progressed, we have also greatly embraced many other faiths and religions.

We have? Well then ... name one. I dare you.

Not have we not embraced other faiths, we would not embrace Christian faiths at odds with what the majority considered Christianity.

We sent in the army to eliminate polygamy from the Mormon faith.
We wrote an amendment to the constitution to keep those who thought drinking wasn't a sin from exercising that right.

"We" have done a very poor job of "embracing" other faiths and religions; supression is a far more accurate term.

Your examples overlook many other instances where the US embraces other faiths and religions, and we have to keep in mind that the US itself doesn't embrace anything. It's the people who make up the country--on an individual basis--who are doing the embracing.

Also, the "I don't give a f*ck about your religious views" crowd has grown considerably over the years in the US, and have been generally accepted. Sure, there are conflicts between groups, but the US overall still maintains "freedom of religion and freedom of free speech." And compared to other countries, the US has a pretty good record on upholding the law in regards to religion.

Examples of the US through laws embracing other religions can be seen from their lack of undertaking any suppressive actions taken towards non-Christians (atheists, don't care-ists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, to name a few). Granted, there are exceptions and minor f*ck-ups, but regarding religion in this country I'd say that the US has hardly been suppressive towards them.

As a side note: Wasn't their polygamy stopped for a good reason in some legal context? Can't recall much of the details, but still Mormons are only one religious group that was forced to stop from only one certain act, which was (I presume) detrimental to the American people overall.

I think the main issue with you is that maybe you yourself don't really embrace other faiths and religions. You're mixing up "we" with a more accurate "I" and by doing so you think you're somehow in the majority. I'd say you're one of few who believe that the US is generally suppressive and doesn't embrace other religions and faiths. I'd recommend you read about other cultures and countries to gain a better perspective.

[Night Strike]

Even then, the people who fled the old world because of the establishment of state churches that forced their religious model and expectations on others in turn often did the exact same thing in the new world. New England was notorious for that. State churches continued even after the signing of the Constitution which prohibited a federal church. In Connecticut, Catholics continued to pay taxes to the “state church” (it wasn’t the Catholic Church) well into the 19th century.

Because having state churches was perfectly acceptable as long as there was not a federal church as people had the freedom to move to a different state if they disagreed with the state policies. It wasn't until it was decided that the federal government had the ultimate authority that states started to lose their autonomy. States were designed to have the opportunity to conduct "social experiments" by enacting laws and entitlements that other states did not have, but it is only now that the federal government will soon be forcing all the other states to take care of the states that made poor decisions. It's the ultimate slap to our system of federalism.

[john9blue]

it won't change who we be yo.

I've read countless posts by you, and I never realised you were black.

Oh, and read some more history so you know the facts.

haha i wonder what would happen if a conservative said this

yup, more hypocrisy from the left

[tzor]

Your examples overlook many other instances where the US embraces other faiths and religions, and we have to keep in mind that the US itself doesn't embrace anything. It's the people who make up the country--on an individual basis--who are doing the embracing.

Also, the "I don't give a f*ck about your religious views" crowd has grown considerably over the years in the US, and have been generally accepted. Sure, there are conflicts between groups, but the US overall still maintains "freedom of religion and freedom of free speech." And compared to other countries, the US has a pretty good record on upholding the law in regards to religion.

Examples of the US through laws embracing other religions can be seen from their lack of undertaking any suppressive actions taken towards non-Christians (atheists, don't care-ists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, to name a few). Granted, there are exceptions and minor f*ck-ups, but regarding religion in this country I'd say that the US has hardly been suppressive towards them.

As a side note: Wasn't their polygamy stopped for a good reason in some legal context? Can't recall much of the details, but still Mormons are only one religious group that was forced to stop from only one certain act, which was (I presume) detrimental to the American people overall.

I think the main issue with you is that maybe you yourself don't really embrace other faiths and religions. You're mixing up "we" with a more accurate "I" and by doing so you think you're somehow in the majority. I'd say you're one of few who believe that the US is generally suppressive and doesn't embrace other religions and faiths. I'd recommend you read about other cultures and countries to gain a better perspective.

As I mentioned above, can you give me a single example where the US “embraced” a non Judeo-Christian religious notion in either law or custom? I don’t think you can. Religious bigotry is as old as the country itself, from the Know Nothings to the KKK (who were in addition to being against former slaves were also strongly against Papists).

So let’s turn back the clock of time and see how wonderful we were then, and now.

1700 - In June, Massachusetts passes a law ordering all Roman Catholic priests to leave the colony within three months, upon penalty of life imprisonment or execution. New York then passes a similar law. Back in 1647 the Puritan Government had passed a law which threatened with death "all and every Jesuit, seminary priest, missionary or other spiritual or ecclesiastical person made or ordained by any authority, power or jurisdiction, derived, challenged or pretended, from the Pope or See of Rome."

When Georgia, the thirteenth colony, was brought into being in 1732 by a charter granted by King George II, its guarantee of religious freedom followed the fixed pattern: full religious freedom was promised to all future settlers of the colony “except papists,” that is Catholics.

When New York framed its constitution in 1777, it allowed toleration for all religions, but Catholics were denied full citizenship. This law was not repealed until 1806.

Note that Catholics were a minority at the time, even though one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence was a Roman Catholic, “Although Catholicism was an influential factor in the French settlements of the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and later in the Spanish regions of Florida, the Southwest and California, Catholics were a decided minority in the original 13 English colonies. As we see in the first general report on the state of Catholicism by John Carroll in 1785, Catholics were a mere handful. He conservatively estimated the Catholic population in those colonies to be 25,000. Of this figure, 15,800 resided in Maryland, about 7,000 in Pennsylvania, and another 1,500 in New York. Considering that the population in the first federal census of 1790 totalled 3,939,000, the Catholic presence was less than one percent, certainly not a significant force in the original 13 British colonies.”

I could continue to go on with this one example, a basically “Christian” religion that was not embraced but rejected throughout history even to the point of the election of the first (and only) Roman Catholic President John F. Kennedy (who was later assassinated). And remember if you think the Catholic population was small, the Jewish population was even smaller and the Muslim population was non existant.

[BigBallinStalin]

Your examples overlook many other instances where the US embraces other faiths and religions, and we have to keep in mind that the US itself doesn't embrace anything. It's the people who make up the country--on an individual basis--who are doing the embracing.

Also, the "I don't give a f*ck about your religious views" crowd has grown considerably over the years in the US, and have been generally accepted. Sure, there are conflicts between groups, but the US overall still maintains "freedom of religion and freedom of free speech." And compared to other countries, the US has a pretty good record on upholding the law in regards to religion.

Examples of the US through laws embracing other religions can be seen from their lack of undertaking any suppressive actions taken towards non-Christians (atheists, don't care-ists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, to name a few). Granted, there are exceptions and minor f*ck-ups, but regarding religion in this country I'd say that the US has hardly been suppressive towards them.

As a side note: Wasn't their polygamy stopped for a good reason in some legal context? Can't recall much of the details, but still Mormons are only one religious group that was forced to stop from only one certain act, which was (I presume) detrimental to the American people overall.

I think the main issue with you is that maybe you yourself don't really embrace other faiths and religions. You're mixing up "we" with a more accurate "I" and by doing so you think you're somehow in the majority. I'd say you're one of few who believe that the US is generally suppressive and doesn't embrace other religions and faiths. I'd recommend you read about other cultures and countries to gain a better perspective.

As I mentioned above, can you give me a single example where the US “embraced” a non Judeo-Christian religious notion in either law or custom?

Well, now you're changing the topic. Originally it was just Christian religions, but now it's Judeo-Christian religions, so I see what you did there...

But anyhow, back to your question:
Your question isn't relevant to PLAYER's topic, which we were originally discussing, or so I thought. So you'd like me to show an example where the US embraces a non Judeo-Christian religion notion in either law or custom? Well, what exactly are Judeo-Christian notions embraced by the US either through law or custom? How closely do these religions notions resemble the laws or customs? And what earlier works are these Judeo-Christian notions based upon? How far would you like to stretch the idea of what ideas are responsible for later ones?

Your question seems loaded...


Now let's go back to the main point of my correspondence with you:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Yes, because western society has its roots in Christianity.

BUT, as we have progressed, we have also greatly embraced many other faiths and religions.

From what I gathered, I'd say "embrace" to mean "accept." Not just converting to or loving it. Just accepting that yeah it's there, it's part of us (just how the US is seen as this melting pot of different religions and what not). To "not embrace," would be to "ban" it, or treat it like garbage (which as you say happened big time in the 1700s, but that's been on the decrease for awhile).

Also, "as we have progressed" means that this has been on the increase. Which I'd agree with. You bring up bigotry and mention the KKK. What's the KKK's past membership in relation to the total population in regions where they operated compared to today's KKK membership numbers? The answer is: not nearly the same amount in the past. Dwindling and almost dead would be an apt description. Which supports my point, but not really yours.

When New York framed its constitution in 1777, it allowed toleration for all religions, but Catholics were denied full citizenship. This law was not repealed until 1806.

Ah, and it was repealed, thus showing a rise in the embrace of other religions and faiths.

But then you stop around 1800... and mention something vague and perhaps not too good of an example when you mention JFK (just one guy, one instance). What about the progress of the past 200 years?

You also ignored the effects of upholding the law regarding "freedom of religion" and "freedom of free speech."

Like I said before, there are exceptions and minor glitches (like ones you mentioned), but overall the trend has been up for embracing.

[ViperOverLord]

it won't change who we be yo.

I've read countless posts by you, and I never realised you were black.

Oh, and read some more history so you know the facts.

haha i wonder what would happen if a conservative said this

yup, more hypocrisy from the left

I guess I aint white nuff fo him. Aint no thang. Aint nothin' but a g thang here no how. And yo bro look at the countuh - I'm at 5 fitty f posts goin into this so it aint all that countless.

And hows about not tellin me to go read on some history when you aint even specifyin you shizz. Go learn yo self some trigonometry. Thatz about the half of what yo lip flappin adds up to.

[Phatscotty]

lionz please...stop.

To the others.

It is simply foolish to debate wether or not our nation was found on christian principles.

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

What our nation has AT ITS ROOTS is the belief that everyone has freedom of religion, NOT that there is a specific religion involved.

yet, christianity was involved...at the roots... The first gov't meetings were at churches.

There was no need to specifically state something that was obvious. Our laws are based on the 10 commandments, and it says so at the Supreme Court.

[PLAYER57832]

lionz please...stop.

To the others.

It is simply foolish to debate wether or not our nation was found on christian principles.

Wether you believe in God or not. You can not get around what our nation has at its roots.

What our nation has AT ITS ROOTS is the belief that everyone has freedom of religion, NOT that there is a specific religion involved.

yet, christianity was involved...at the roots... The first gov't meetings were at churches.

No, I do believe the Magna Carta was signed on a ship, not in a church. But... a technicality.

[Phatscotty]

magna carta....wrong country/ wrong time/ wrong discussion I dont care. I swear you say dumb shit on purpose

[Phatscotty]

If the founding fathers had intended ultimate separation of church and state, they probably would not have taken their oaths to the Constitution with a Bible. Maybe they were different kinds of Bibles, but Christian Bibles nonetheless.

Uber-Tolerant Christian nation. End of story. If the haters are going to take our tolerance and shove it in our face, then they do not deserve tolerance.

Tolerance of others is the price we pay for others toleration of ourselves.

[Woodruff]

magna carta....wrong country/ wrong time/ wrong discussion I dont care. I swear you say dumb shit on purpose

You don't believe the Magna Carta is at the root of our country's laws?

If the founding fathers had intended ultimate separation of church and state

You don't believe there was an intention to separation of church and state?

Uber-Tolerant Christian nation. End of story. If the haters are going to take our tolerance and shove it in our face, then they do not deserve tolerance.
Tolerance of others is the price we pay for others toleration of ourselves.

You have pretty much defined lack of tolerance here. If you're only tolerant when it's easy, that's not tolerance.

[Phatscotty]

magna carta....wrong country/ wrong time/ wrong discussion I dont care. I swear you say dumb shit on purpose

You don't believe the Magna Carta is at the root of our country's laws?

If the founding fathers had intended ultimate separation of church and state

You don't believe there was an intention to separation of church and state?

Uber-Tolerant Christian nation. End of story. If the haters are going to take our tolerance and shove it in our face, then they do not deserve tolerance.
Tolerance of others is the price we pay for others toleration of ourselves.

You have pretty much defined lack of tolerance here. If you're only tolerant when it's easy, that's not tolerance.

Just let me say it this way. (skip over all the side stepping issues). S of CnC people are going way too far and have been for a while now. Dismantling Manger scenes on Christmas or getting a Cross removed from a freeway memorial, or dropping Creator in quoting the Declaration...It's just too far.

I'm not the only one who thinks this way. There are millions of others, and we can not wait to be heard at the ballot box.