The Gnostic “heresy” – a general discussion

[PLAYER57832]

If "you are very, very sure you are correct." I am convinced there would still be a huge difference between,
"Love even your enemy."
and
"Kill them everyone, God will recognise his own."

Ah, but you see we live a life of difficulties. Don't you "understand", if we tolerate improper behavior, it SPREADS and we are condemned along with the guilty. Harsh choices must be made!

or.. to put it another way, "how unchristian must we act to be a christian".
(in case someone stumbles in and doesn't read fully.... this post is dripping with sarcasm)

[2dimes]

That's basically my point, those that proudly take the label of "Christian" too often have not met the Christ. They are even less likely to submit to him in love for the glory and honour of the one who sent him.

It does not matter how much anything spreads, I can not be condemned. That's also the essance of "Judge not lest you be judged. For you will be judged by the measure you yourself have used."

I miss heavycola and b.k.

[PLAYER57832]

That's basically my point, those that proudly take the label of "Christian" too often have not met the Christ. They are even less likely to submit to him in love for the glory and honour of the one who sent him.

I have heard that when someone asked Ghandi "why aren't you Christian", his response was "I have never met one".
true or not, it makes a point.

I miss heavycola and b.k.

me too, me too!

[AAFitz]

Ill only address this part as I feel it is the most vital of the entire point of the post and something that many seem to miss or ignore in their description or ideas of religion and God but one that I myself find self-evident.

...Claiming that God must be "fair", in human terms, is just wrong.

I actually have not claimed this. I am actually stating that he must be fair infinitely beyond human fairness. Just as he is infinitely more Good, or at least is defined as much by most religions, he must indeed be infinitely more fair, because unfair, is indeed not infinitely Good by simple definition.

Inequity is bad and often evil, so there can be no inequity in a truly Good Universe. There simply must be a system in place to correct all inequity in some way, or it cannot be Good and devoid of evil. We as mere humans strive to resolve unfairness, and inequity especially in our justice system, so it is very easy to claim that any Infinitely Good God would have an infinitely Good system as well.

I agree it has little to do with gnostic per-se, and as I said, what I posted was merely inspired by the conversation that developed.

[Juan_Bottom]

Ah, but you see we live a life of difficulties. Don't you "understand", if we tolerate improper behavior, it SPREADS and we are condemned along with the guilty. Harsh choices must be made!

or.. to put it another way, "how unchristian must we act to be a christian".
(in case someone stumbles in and doesn't read fully.... this post is dripping with sarcasm)

You've actually touched upon the reason for my Militant Atheism. As long as religion exists, there will be room for people to become extremists. There's room for another 9-11, Serbian Genocide, Holocaust, or worse.

[PLAYER57832]

Ah, but you see we live a life of difficulties. Don't you "understand", if we tolerate improper behavior, it SPREADS and we are condemned along with the guilty. Harsh choices must be made!

or.. to put it another way, "how unchristian must we act to be a christian".
(in case someone stumbles in and doesn't read fully.... this post is dripping with sarcasm)

You've actually touched upon the reason for my Militant Atheism. As long as religion exists, there will be room for people to become extremists. There's room for another 9-11, Serbian Genocide, Holocaust, or worse.

sorry, but atheists don't get a pass on this. The claim that religion is dangerous is no different and just as likely to be abused.

[Juan_Bottom]

I can't believe that someone in power could order other people to do his bidding based on the idea that those other people don't believe in anything. There's nothing to unite them that way. "For good men to do evil, that takes religion"

[PLAYER57832]

I can't believe that someone in power could order other people to do his bidding based on the idea that those other people don't believe in anything. There's nothing to unite them that way. "For good men to do evil, that takes religion"

Chairman Mao, anyone? Stalin, perhaps?

Even Hitler.

[PLAYER57832]

he must indeed be infinitely more fair, because unfair, is indeed not infinitely Good by simple definition.

Why?

Michael Jordan and Einstein are hardly equal. Is that unfair? Of course! Add in other differences and being "unfair" is in fact very much a part of humanity. God created us in that way for reasons we don't fully understand.

"Fairness" is just a human concept. It does not apply to God, not at all. (or you could say God is beyond "fairness).

[Ray Rider]

I can't believe that someone in power could order other people to do his bidding based on the idea that those other people don't believe in anything. There's nothing to unite them that way. "For good men to do evil, that takes religion"

My grandparents (and many other relatives) went through great persecution in Russia when the government tried to force athiesm on the country. I have heard many first hand accounts of those who had to hide their Bibles and meet in secret for fear of imprisonment or being sent to Siberia (even through they were industrious, completely harmless pacifists who refused to even defend themselves). Evil has been promoted under many guises, and you are deceiving yourself if you believe athiesm/agnosticism is somehow immune. I'm very thankful to my grandparents for their decision to move to Canada and start a new life in freedom. One of my uncles who missed the train leaving Russia was later sent to the work camps in Siberia and never heard from again.

[PLAYER57832]

To clarify, I have argued in the past that such strong beliefs are, essentially, religions. Many others have indicated that religion has to have a God, or belief in some kind of spiritual entity or "process" (scientology, perhaps might fit that). By that token, anything that unites people so strongly is "religion"

However, when you set up religion as the opposite of atheism, atheism just does not get a pass. And, some people are absoluely as antagonistic, if not more toward those who have belief as extremists within those beliefs.

Agnosticism might, simply by definition, because an agnostic says "I don't know". Someone who admits they don't know tends not to be fanatic.

[Juan_Bottom]

Chairman Mao, anyone? Stalin, perhaps?

Even Hitler.

There's a difference in that those people didn't do such things because of Atheism. It's not a question of whether Atheists have done evil things or not, it's a question of why. Atheists have never united in some kind of Atheist crusade.

[PLAYER57832]

Chairman Mao, anyone? Stalin, perhaps?

Even Hitler.

There's a difference in that those people didn't do such things because of Atheism. It's not a question of whether Atheists have done evil things or not, it's a question of why. Atheists have never united in some kind of Atheist crusade.

Not true. They all saw religion as the enemy.

[Juan_Bottom]

Not true.
Well, with the exception of Hitler, they may not have supported religion, but they never raised an Atheists crusader army. The was no "Army of Nothing."

[PLAYER57832]

Not true.
Well, with the exception of Hitler, they may not have supported religion, but they never raised an Atheists crusader army. The was no "Army of Nothing."

Study Stalin...and Mao. Ironically, Hitler actually was the least. He used the churches initially and many still think he supported Protestant Christianity. No one who lived during the times mistook Stalin or Mao's ideas. They had an all out war against faith of any kind.

[Juan_Bottom]

But not because they were Atheists. Atheism wasn't the driving factor.

[PLAYER57832]

But not because they were Atheists. Atheism wasn't the driving factor.

Come again? Yes, they saw belief in God as the biggest threat, enough that they killed people, put people in jail, tortured them, etc.

That's like Christians saying "well, those [killers] weren't really Christian...". True, inthe sense that I certainly don' think they were following Christ, but also definitely not true because they claimed they were operating in "his" name.

[Juan_Bottom]

That's like Christians saying "well, those [killers] weren't really Christian...". True, inthe sense that I certainly don' think they were following Christ, but also definitely not true because they claimed they were operating in "his" name.

No I'm saying that they were Atheists, and they were killers. But Atheism wasn't what motivated them to try to destroy the church. Numerous authors have tackled this.

It is important to remember that the fundamentally speaking, communism is about everyone being on a level playing field. Everyone receives what they need and gives what they can. The idea being that the community of people comes before the individual but if all individuals are taken care of, then the community is doing well. Religion divides. Marxist and Maoist communism had less of an issue with the belief in a god or in Jesus, but had a serious issue with 'religion.' For centuries prior to the Communist government in Russia, the Church, that is the Russian Orthodox Church had it's hands in all facets of Politics. By the time the Tsarist government fell in 1917, the Church was almost as powerful as the Tsar himself. The Bolsheviks instituted a policy of separation of church and state, but the effects of the power the Church had mustered over the years was still felt in the political circles. When the communists took control of Russia, they knew that the only way to silence the church was to eradicate it. In communist thinking, the government IS the people and the people ARE the government, thus to separate the church and the government, the church had to be removed. That is what fueled the actions of Stalin and Mao as well. Yes, it is true that they were atheists. After all, atheism IS logical and understandable, and as far as I am concerned the only intelligent decision. But, it was not their personal theological beliefs or lack there of, that caused them to commit the actions they did.

-deknowsit, Yahoo Member since: April 04, 2006

[Ray Rider]

I find it interesting that people are quick to condemn Christians based on some isolated occurrences of violence perpetrated by those claiming the name of Christ (which was despicable, but an anomaly rather than a pattern through history), while those same people seem to turn a blind eye to multitude of charities which have existed in various forms throughout the past 2000 years and conducted their operations of God-honoring love, benevolence, compassion, and generosity in the name of Christ. Here's are some that are in operation today (from a list at christianservicecharities.org):

A Child's Hope Fund
CFC Code: 10978
http://www.achildshopefund.org
(888)-291-6018
Fight children’s cancer and illnesses, sexual exploitation and hunger through medical and food outreaches, education and other preventions, strengthening children threatened by abuse and poverty.
Click here for more info

Advocates International
CFC Code: 10525
http://www.advocatesinternational.org
(703)-894-1084
A global network linking advocates in 150 nations promoting religious freedom & human rights, life & family, and conflict resolution while integrating faith and profession.
Click here for more info

Aid to Children, Youth and Families
CFC Code: 11290
http://www.newhopeinternational.org
(800)-297-9591
Provides Christian training, orphan care, education (AIDS, STD’s, Alcohol and Drugs) and other aid to children, youth and families in orphanages, schools, camps and conferences.
Click here for more info

AIDS Care Fund
CFC Code: 10980
http://www.aidscarefund.org
(909)-793-2009
Helping people living with HIV/AIDS overcome their loneliness and despair. Providing counseling, support groups, literature, toll-free hotline, and Christian homes for children dying of AIDS.
Click here for more info

Alcohol & Drug Recovery Fund
CFC Code: 12172
http://www.alcoholanddrugrecovery.org
(909)-793-2009
An effective, compassionate ministry saving lives, renewing hope through intervention and faith-based recovery treatment that provides healing to those affected by alcoholism and drug addictions.
Click here for more info

Association of Gospel Rescue Missions
CFC Code: 10981
http://www.agrm.org
(800)-473-7283
To proclaim the passion of Jesus toward the hungry, homeless, abused and addicted; and to accelerate quality and effectiveness in member missions.
Click here for more info

Baptist World Alliance
CFC Code: 10527
http://www.bwanet.org
(703)-790-8080 x 171
Cares for the hungry and homeless of the world by providing food, medicine, encouragement, hope. Defends the oppressed/persecuted by promoting human rights/religious freedom.
Click here for more info

Blessings International
CFC Code: 11864
http://www.blessing.org
(877)-250-8101
Giving hope to destitute children and adults by providing life-saving pharmaceuticals, vitamins, medical supplies for treating needy patients in developing nations and U.S. clinics.
Click here for more info

Care Net
CFC Code: 10983
http://www.care-net.org
(800)-518-7909
Saving lives, healing hearts, and ministering compassion through evangelistic ministry to women and men facing unplanned pregnancies and related sexual issues.
Click here for more info

Child Abuse Intervention Fund
CFC Code: 11086
http://www.childabuseinterventionfund.org
(909)-793-2009
Helping abused children by bringing them hope and healing through crisis intervention, personal counseling, support groups, legal aid, medical referrals, education, and a national hotline.
Click here for more info

Childcare Worldwide
CFC Code: 11728
http://www.childcareworldwide.org
(800)-553-2328
Breaking the cycle of poverty, Childcare hleps children survive and succeed through feeding programs and a complete education that will qualify them to get employment.
Click here for more info

Children's Christian Hunger Network
CFC Code: 10529
http://www.childrenshungernetwork.org
(800)-234-3903
Providing hurting and underprivileged children in third world countries and America with life-saving food, clothing, housing, and Christian education. Restoring children's lives with love.
Click here for more info

Children's Food Fund/World Emergency Relief
CFC Code: 10984
http://www.worldemergencyrelief.org/
(888)-484-4543
Give children a living chance through emergency relief, food, medical care, schools, orphanages, and micro economic assistance in 33 countries, including Native Americans.
Click here for more info

Children's HopeChest
CFC Code: 11729
http://www.hopechest.org
(800)-648-9575
Provides emergency food, clean water, clothing, education, discipleship, and other basic needs to thousands of orphan children in vulnerable situations overseas.
Click here for more info

Children's Hunger Relief Fund
CFC Code: 11730
http://www.chrf.org
(888)-781-1585
Nine million innocent children needlessly die before age five! Help us provide millions of meals, healthcare, clean water, housing, education, God's love and stop starvation.
Click here for more info

Christian Blind Mission
CFC Code: 12136
http://www.cbmus.org
(800)-937-2264
Highly trusted international Christian development organization with over 100 years of expertise serving 17 million people with disabilities in the poorest countries of the world.
Click here for more info

Christian Foundation for Children and Aging
CFC Code: 12041
http://www.cfcausa.org
(800)-875-6564
One hundred percent of contributions received through CFC help fund scholarships for students in developing countries. Scholars provide community service and participate in leadership activities.
Click here for more info

Christian Legal Society
CFC Code: 12042
http://www.clsnet.org
(703)-642-1070
CLS defends religious freedom and the sanctity of life, provides legal assistance to the poor, and promotes conflict resolution through biblical counseling, mediation and arbitration.
Click here for more info

Christian Relief Fund
CFC Code: 11862
http://www.christianrelieffund.org
(800)-858-4038
Fighting hunger and poverty internationally by providing food, medicine, educational support, Christian disaster relief and humanitarian aid to children and families in developing countries.
Click here for more info

Christian Service Charities
CFC Code: 10171
http://www.christianservicecharities.org
(888) 728-2762
Christian charities you know and trust, working to overcome poverty, hunger, hopelessness, religious persecution, abuse, disease, illiteracy, homelessness, addiction, broken families and separation from God.
Click here for more info

Compassion International
CFC Code: 10522
http://www.compassion.com/cfc
(800)-336-7676
Exists as an advocate for children, releasing them from spiritual, economic, social, physical poverty in Jesus' name through holistic child development in 25 developing countries.
Click here for more info

Emergency Relief Response Fund
CFC Code: 10526
http://www.emergencyreliefresponsefund.org
(909)-793-2009
Moving quickly to alleviate human suffering in times of great crisis by providing food, clothing, medical care, temporary shelter, and other emergency efforts sustaining life.
Click here for more info

Engineering Ministries International
CFC Code: 10985
http://www.emiworld.org
(719)-633-2078
"Designing a World of Hope" - mobilizing technical professionals to design hospitals, orphanages, schools, water projects for the poor. With volunteers overhead is 5.1%.
Click here for more info

Food for the Hungry
CFC Code: 11732
http://www.fh.org
(800)-248-6437
A Christian organization, committed to working with poor people affected by natural disasters, war, poverty and hunger to overcome through self-development and relief programs.
Click here for more info

Global Action
CFC Code: 58058
http://www.global-act.org
(888)-725-3707
Co-operating with national partners in over 70 countries, we demonstrate Christ’s love and compassion to people who have desperate needs, but no other help.
Click here for more info

Kids Around the World
CFC Code: 32629
http://www.kidsaroundtheworld.com
(815)-229-8731
Builds safe playgrounds and distributes food for children around the world. Traines and provides special materials for teachers to share the Bible with children.
Click here for more info

Kids for the Kingdom
CFC Code: 11733
http://www.kidsforthekingdom.org
(707)-829-5504
Transforming living conditions and spiritual lives of children overseas through feeding, orphanages, schools, aid, evangelism, Bible studies, so they can transform their nation for Christ.
Click here for more info

Mercy Ships
CFC Code: 94744
http://www.mercyships.org
(800)-772-7447
Mercy Ships utilizes hospital ships and volunteer crew to deliver free specialized medical care to the forgotten poor of the world.
Click here for more info

Mexican Medical
CFC Code: 12045
http://www.mexicanmedical.com
(619)-463-4777
Providing hope for the poor--sharing God's love through medical, dental, hospital care, community health programs utilizing Christian medical teams and other volunteers.
Click here for more info

Mission Aviation Fellowship
CFC Code: 10989
http://www.maf.org
(800)-359-7623
MAF is a Christian organization that uses aviation, communications, and learning technologies to bring the Gospel and life-sustaining services to isolated areas of the world.
Click here for more info

Mission to Children
CFC Code: 11922
http://www.MissionToChildren.org
(877)-766-2400
Cultivating Christlike character in children—helping them become responsible citizens and leaders; caring for youth internationally through orphanages, food, clothes, education, and Bible-based character training.
Click here for more info

MOPS International
CFC Code: 10990
http://www.MOPS.org
(800)-706-7419
Better moms make a better world! Your gift will help teen, military, single, working moms, stay at home moms and moms in prison
Click here for more info

Nazarene Compassionate Ministries, Inc.
CFC Code: 11735
http://www.ncmi.org
(800)-214-4999
Challenged by faith to end poverty. Promotes long term solutions through training, Gifts in kind, economic and community development, and micro enterprise projects.
Click here for more info

Operation Blessing International Relief and Development Corp.
CFC Code: 10530
http://www.operationblessing.org
(800)-730-2537
Dedicated to alleviating human need and suffering throughout the world through hunger relief, clean water, medical aid, disaster relief and community development programs since 1978.
Click here for more info

Orphans Assistance & Rescue Inc.
CFC Code: 11421
http://www.patdebthailand.org
(636)-225-6500
Rescuing orphans from a life of destitution - potential drug and prostitution abuse. Providing quality lifestyles and training children in music ministry and community outreach.
Click here for more info

Prison Fellowship International
CFC Code: 10991
http://www.pfi.org/
(877)-481-0002
Global network of 117 national Prison Fellowship ministries addressing physical, social and spiritual needs of prisoners, ex-prisoners, victims and families through mercy, reconciliation and restoration.
Click here for more info

Senior Care Fund
CFC Code: 10992
http://www.seniorcarefund.org
(909)-793-2009
Providing resources to networks of hospital chaplains and skilled, caring volunteers helping the elderly to age with dignity and overcome loneliness in their final years.
Click here for more info

The Society of St. Andrew
CFC Code: 12046
http://www.endhunger.org
(800)-333-4597
Gleaning America's fields to feed America's hungry. A Christian, ecumenical ministry saving edible produce from going to waste, using it instead to feed the hungry.
Click here for more info

The Voice of the Martyrs, Inc
CFC Code: 10993
http://www.persecution.com
(877)-337-0458
Provides spiritual and humanitarian aid to persecuted Christians: Help brings fellowship, encouragement, bibles, clothing, literature, counseling, trauma care, medicine, blankets, job training and other aid.
Click here for more info

Warm Blankets Orphan Care International
CFC Code: 11273
http://www.warmblankets.org
(877)-577-1070
Help transform the lives of children left behind on the battlefields of good and evil. Indigenous pastors and communities provide love, care, and futures.
Click here for more info

World Concern-A Division of CRISTA Ministries
CFC Code: 11386
http://www.worldconcern.org
(800)-755-5022
Provides microloans to women, care to AIDS orphans, and education, agricultural training and disaster response services to hurting people around the world.
Click here for more info

World Reach, Inc.
CFC Code: 48918
http://world-reach.org
(205)-979-2400
A nondenominational foreign mission organization reaching the world with the Gospel of Christ. We establish churches, train national pastors and provide medical and physical relief.
Click here for more info

World Vision, Inc.
CFC Code: 11117
http://www.worldvision.org
(800)-886-5437
Relief and development organization helping children worldwide by tackling causes of poverty and developing access to clean water, food, health care, education, and economic opportunity.
Click here for more info

Worldwide Christian Schools
CFC Code: 11740
http://www.wwcs.org
(616)-531-9102
Empowers partners worldwide to develop quality Christian schools for children in need, preparing them for life by providing facilities, teacher training, curriculum and tuition assistance.
Click here for more info

Young Life
CFC Code: 10515
http://www.younglife.org
(877)-438-9572
Empowering leaders to reach out to teens to help them make positive choices about spiritual issues, develop life skills and live responsibly in society.
Click here for more info

[PLAYER57832]

I find it interesting that people are quick to condemn Christians based on some isolated occurrences of violence perpetrated by those claiming the name of Christ (which was despicable, but an anomaly rather than a pattern through history), while those same people seem to turn a blind eye to multitude of charities which have existed in various forms throughout the past 2000 years and conducted their operations of God-honoring love, benevolence, compassion, and generosity in the name of Christ.

With respect, jaun is not among those (we have had many discussions previously), this is essentially a discussion of semantics, of what "atheist" means

[PLAYER57832]

That's like Christians saying "well, those [killers] weren't really Christian...". True, inthe sense that I certainly don' think they were following Christ, but also definitely not true because they claimed they were operating in "his" name.

No I'm saying that they were Atheists, and they were killers. But Atheism wasn't what motivated them to try to destroy the church. Numerous authors have tackled this.

It is debated, but those who argue that position are mostly trying to justify atheism as somehow "superior". If you dig into the motives of religious people, you will find similar justifications. That the justifications of Atheism are more "practical" is a facet of their being atheistic. Just a different side of the same coin.

[Ray Rider]

I find it interesting that people are quick to condemn Christians based on some isolated occurrences of violence perpetrated by those claiming the name of Christ (which was despicable, but an anomaly rather than a pattern through history), while those same people seem to turn a blind eye to multitude of charities which have existed in various forms throughout the past 2000 years and conducted their operations of God-honoring love, benevolence, compassion, and generosity in the name of Christ.

With respect, jaun is not among those (we have had many discussions previously), this is essentially a discussion of semantics, of what "atheist" means

Yes, my post wasn't exactly directed at Juan, but in general. I keep hearing about the crusades and the times people have killed in the name of Christ but nobody ever seems to pay any attention to the other side of the story. Sorry if I interrupted things Please continue

[Juan_Bottom]

Yeah I don't like to bring up the atrocities carried out in the name of any particular God or Godess. The truth is, I wasn't alive when it happened &/or I wasn't involved in it. And most likely you weren't either. So why hold something against you that you had no part in? I was never offended by it, and you weren't the one to cause the offense. But that's not to say that people like Neo-Nazis aren't a common enemy or anything. I am alive for that offense.

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah I don't like to bring up the atrocities carried out in the name of any particular God or Godess. The truth is, I wasn't alive when it happened &/or I wasn't involved in it. And most likely you weren't either. So why hold something against you that you had no part in? I was never offended by it, and you weren't the one to cause the offense. But that's not to say that people like Neo-Nazis aren't a common enemy or anything. I am alive for that offense.

Well, as a Christian I probably take more offense at those who abuse in the name of my religion.