Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

[Phatscotty]

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

In point of fact, the five states that have eliminated collective bargaining for teachers currently have the five lowest places among states education.

A point of fact, Since the inception of the "Department of Education" in 1979, our countries children have continued to score lower in comparison to other countries.

no shit. Not looking for needles in the haystack. Looking for replacing the hay.

[Symmetry]

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

In point of fact, the five states that have eliminated collective bargaining for teachers currently have the five lowest places among states education.

A point of fact, Since the inception of the "Department of Education" in 1979, our countries children have continued to score lower in comparison to other countries.

Worse than other countries with teacher's unions? I'd be interested in seeing the figures behind your point of fact though. I'm not denying it, but I am sceptical. Some of your claims are a bit general (lower than Somalia, really?).

[PopeBenXVI]

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

In point of fact, the five states that have eliminated collective bargaining for teachers currently have the five lowest places among states education.

A point of fact, Since the inception of the "Department of Education" in 1979, our countries children have continued to score lower in comparison to other countries.

Worse than other countries with teacher's unions? I'd be interested in seeing the figures behind your point of fact though. I'm not denying it, but I am sceptical. Some of your claims are a bit general (lower than Somalia, really?).

Maybe the best way to do better in comparison to other countries is to force other countries to form Teachers unions? Then their education would decline like ours and hopefully we could pass them up again.

Sorry if my claims are too general, let me be more factual. Fact - The Dept of Education was started in 1979. Fact - Over the last 30 years our test scores in many areas have dropped and many countries have passed us in competency. Hope that helps clarify

[Symmetry]

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

In point of fact, the five states that have eliminated collective bargaining for teachers currently have the five lowest places among states education.

A point of fact, Since the inception of the "Department of Education" in 1979, our countries children have continued to score lower in comparison to other countries.

Worse than other countries with teacher's unions? I'd be interested in seeing the figures behind your point of fact though. I'm not denying it, but I am sceptical. Some of your claims are a bit general (lower than Somalia, really?).

Maybe the best way to do better in comparison to other countries is to force other countries to form Teachers unions? Then their education would decline like ours and hopefully we could pass them up again.

Sorry if my claims are too general, let me be more factual. Fact - The Dept of Education was started in 1979. Fact - Over the last 30 years our test scores in many areas have dropped and many countries have passed us in competency. Hope that helps clarify

Sorry- you actually became more vague.

[PopeBenXVI]

Less Government agencies good. More Government agencies bad.

[Phatscotty]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

[Symmetry]

Less Government agencies good. More Government agencies bad.

A point of fact, Since the inception of the "Department of Education" in 1979, our countries children have continued to score lower in comparison to other countries.

All I want is to know what you're basing your facts on, and how you're comparing different countries. Not tough stuff.

[Phatscotty]

He is saying we need to abolish the department of education

zing?

[Symmetry]

He is saying we need to abolish the department of education

zing?

Why the American one, when other countries clearly have departments of education and are, it seems (I'm waiting for some data) kicking your ass?

[Phatscotty]

He is saying we need to abolish the department of education

zing?

Why the American one, when other countries clearly have departments of education and are, it seems (I'm waiting for some data) kicking your ass?

We have been getting our ass kicked since the year we got the department of education...and it get's worse. The more money we give the department, the worse the results get! POW!

unrelated

[GreecePwns]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

[Phatscotty]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

I underlined speech and actions. can you tell the difference?

I seen plenty of groups, with my own eyes. Way past a few individuals. Gotta keep it in context. Over 2 years and in the Tea Party you had only a handful of examples of classless speech and zero violence. With the protesters, there ire calls for blood in the streets and violence and many arrests for attacking people and a lot of it is on camera, and blatant racism the likes I have not seen in quite some time, all over the place, and this is just the first week

That's what happened to it

[Night Strike]

Even more importantly, a private union has a vested interest in making sure their wages/benefits don't cause the company to go bankrupt (unless you're the UAW) because then they'd also lose their jobs. However, a public union doesn't care how much those things cost because they can always make the public pay whatever they want.

A public union can always make the public pay whatever they want! So THAT'S why teachers are so fucking bloody rich. I always wondered why that was the case.

Do you even THINK before you engage your fingers on the keyboard?

Each member of the private sector pays for their own benefits while also contributing 5-10% of their income to pay for public employee benefits. It's outright theft.

Theft? You take a reasonable stance and make it sound stupid.

When the unions have had sympathetic (read bribed) Democrats in office like they have had in Wisconsin, of course they have made off well. Wisconsin teachers on average make the same wages as others, yet they make 4 times the amount in benefits, while paying hardly anything into those benefits. That's one reason how they're bankrupting the state and must be reformed.

Ok, if it's not theft, it's the worst form of greed. To think that people who pay a large amount of their income for their own benefits must now also pitch in so government employees have to pay far less for their benefits is disgusting. It's wealth redistribution and political payoffs at its worst.

[Phatscotty]

It's mostly the union leaders. Almost all of the teachers and most of the Union people are good people. But they just follow orders from the top like the rest of us.

[Night Strike]

It's mostly the union leaders. Almost all of the teachers and most of the Union people are good people. But they just follow orders from the top like the rest of us.

Not to mention the fact that if they disagree with those union leaders, they're still forced to spend their money on campaigns they disagree with.

[Phatscotty]

It's mostly the union leaders. Almost all of the teachers and most of the Union people are good people. But they just follow orders from the top like the rest of us.

Not to mention the fact that if they disagree with those union leaders, they're still forced to spend their money on campaigns they disagree with.

Is it fair to ask if these protesters are motivated by greed? even just a little?

[Night Strike]

Talking Points Memo & Top Story
Obama and the Wisconsin union situation
"On November 3, 2007, then-Senator Barack Obama said this on the campaign trail: 'If Americans are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I'm in the White House, I'll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I'll walk on that picket line with you.' But so far President Obama is staying out of the Wisconsin brawl, and there's a good reason for that. The Wall Street Journal's Kimberley Strassel writes that 'President Obama is the boss of a civil work force that numbers up to two million ... those federal workers cannot bargain for wages or benefits.' So the only thing the federal union can do is negotiate personnel matters. That's why President Obama can't go to Wisconsin - his guys don't have any union rights and Mr. Obama has not advocated for any changes. According to a new poll, 71% of Wisconsinites believe Governor Scott Walker's union cutbacks are fair, and 69% believe state workers have better benefits than private sector employees. The bottom line on the story is that cutbacks are going to happen and the power of the public unions will be diminished."

Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace elaborated on President Obama's dilemma regarding Wisconsin public employees. "It would be kind of difficult for President Obama to go to Wisconsin and advocate that they have these collective bargaining rights," Wallace said, "when his own federal workers don't have those same collective bargaining rights and he's done nothing to give them those rights. Also, the administration is trying to move to the center and get the independents back, and they know one of the keys is to cut government spending. It's pretty hard to defend these sweetheart deals that the public unions have that private workers would die for." The Factor added that President Obama and his team have done nothing to give federal workers more bargaining power: "The Democrats had two years under President Obama with total control of both houses of Congress to change that. It didn't happen!"

Fox Business anchor Lou Dobbs entered the No Spin Zone with a brief history lesson on public worker unions. "For years it was unlawful in this country for public employees to be unionized," Dobbs reported. "The first major effort to organize public employees was in Wisconsin, which is where one hopes we will see that all change with Governor Walker prevailing, as I think he will. Franklin Roosevelt made it clear when he stated that it's an absolute conflict of interest to have public employees unionize. Why that's so elusive to the folks in Wisconsin and New York and other states is beyond me." Turning to the oil patch, Dobbs theorized that last week's price spike was artificially generated by oil traders and large oil companies. "This is a rigged game, and we have an administration that hasn't said what they're going to do about this run-up in prices."

http://www.billoreilly.com/show?action= ... wID=2810#1

Notice the key point in there? Federal public unions actually get fewer collective bargaining rights than the Wisconsin public unions would be getting under the new rules. Yet Obama states that Wisconsin's actions are wrong while he does nothing to improve (in his eyes) the rights of his own federal workers. Further proof that his political positions are based on what will improve his standings with his base rather than what is best for the country. By the way, it's ironic that the 2nd most progressive president we've ever had (3rd if you count Obama) recognized that there are inherent problems with having public unions.

I don't have a Wall Street Journal account, so I couldn't post the full story that this segment was based on. If anyone else does and wishes to post the full article, that would be great. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 37348.html

[Phatscotty]

In it nutshell, there are a couple revolving polls going around out there, very cleverly worded. Bottom line, if the polls showed that WI residents were against Scott Walker, he would be wearing his sneakers. WI residents are for Walker, and Obama can't be showing up on the wrong side in a state he NEEDS to win in 2012. If he doesn't truly believe in unions enough to support them in their time of need, I don't think I can buy that he believes in anything deeply enough to get in the way of his own re-election.

[Juan_Bottom]

I think Phatscotty is right that there are a lot of cleverly worded polls. I agree with those 71% and 69% of Wisconsinites in NS post. However, there's no percentage given of people who agree with Walker that all public sector unions should be demolished. Hell, that's been the whole discussion up till now.

[PopeBenXVI]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

Well your right. A couple of violent union protestors assaulting news crews and Walker supporters don't speak for everyone. A few people defecating on the floor of the capitol......no big deal. Hundreds of protestors ignoring a police order to vacate the capitol building so they can clean it does not mean all of them disobey law enforcement. A union member ripping wires out of speakers at the tea party rally on the other side of the capitol building was also a 1 man fluke operation. Heck, even if a Democrat legislator were to shout "Your F...ing Dead" to a female Republican on the floor of the assembly after voting for the bill that clearly would still only be 1 of the Dem assemblymen. No one would really mean to say that being what happened to the senator in Arizona right?

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesyk ... 64153.html

Their is no pattern of disrespect here.

[spurgistan]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

Well your right. A couple of violent union protestors assaulting news crews and Walker supporters don't speak for everyone. A few people defecating on the floor of the capitol......no big deal. Hundreds of protestors ignoring a police order to vacate the capitol building so they can clean it does not mean all of them disobey law enforcement. A union member ripping wires out of speakers at the tea party rally on the other side of the capitol building was also a 1 man fluke operation. Heck, even if a Democrat legislator were to shout "Your F...ing Dead" to a female Republican on the floor of the assembly after voting for the bill that clearly would still only be 1 of the Dem assemblymen. No one would really mean to say that being what happened to the senator in Arizona right?

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesyk ... 64153.html

Their is no pattern of disrespect here.

I hope the people in scotty's vid weren't too grievously hurt from having the bird flipped at them. That can really damage you. If, you know, you're 11.

[PopeBenXVI]

Haha...This 2 min NEA clip is a must watch. It only confirms for me why we homeschool our kids.

Right from the horses mouth. The unions are in it for the power, not for the kids. Screw the kids and the goal of creating great public schools for every child. They want the 100's of millions of dollars in dues and their public employee status. Reducing drop out rates are not as important as collective bargaining and should not be done at it's expense? You might say this is just 1 guy and most do not share his statements but then why is everyone in the audience giving him a standing ovation? Well, I think I saw one lady who took a while to stand up so maybe she had to think about what he said for 5 seconds before she concluded she agrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piPkgAUo0w

[thegreekdog]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

[PLAYER57832]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

Ironically, though this is getting the most national attention, there are also problems with instituting no-bid contracts. And, apparently, this is not just state, but local government employees who would be impacted.

[PLAYER57832]

No, you have completely missed my point. Why do these parents not have alternate care for their children in these situations? It's not at all difficult to find, as I know from personal experience. This ain't fucking rocket science. These families are just as affected by their own poor planning as they are by the walkout.

OK, as much as I agree with your general point, this is just not true everywhere.

I am doing childcare specifically because I could not find anyone to take my son. It can be especially hard to get occasional fulltime care for school age kids. Providers naturally want someone fulltime. Part-time spaces are more limited. When open, they may have space after school, but not during school. Many providers go ahead and take the kids anyway, figuring that they are unlikely to get inspected (pretty true).

Also, there is the cost. The going rate around here is $20-30 for regular (non emergency) care. If you are only earning $64, even $72 a day before taxes, that does not leave one much. Not everyone has friends or family upon whom they can rely.