Rolegift Mafia, All Present

[naxus]

Nothing received and gave my gift to skoffy

Where has aage dissapeared too?

[spiesr]

I think we need to see more results from the night and would recommend people come forward with them.

I too agree that I would really like to hear how actions went down last night. Unfortunately we have fallen into a situation where we are dependent on these action for how we approach the day. Nobody seems inclined to make any cases or good discussion today and I don't have any ideas right now. The players best at going out and making cases are all dead, leaving us with second tier players and those we a more reactive play style or are simply the followers without leaders. I don't really know where we should go from here, my favored target for this day was probably going to be aage, but it is kind of hard to do anything on that front when he isn't here. I still have lingering suspicions about Commander, but don't think I can really offer anything that hasn't already been said on the topic.
Back on the subject of actions, by my count we have yet to here from the recipients of the busdriver, doctor, Jail-keeper, watcher, mayor, and both cop gifts. We are looking at a situation where Fircoal and aage likely received many of those. Fircoal had already been getting the doctor gift pretty steadily and may have taken a couple others with him when he died, and aage specifically asked to receive a portion of the gifts. Kwanton probably sent his jail-keeper gift to a scumbuddy on his last day who is now understandably keeping quite about having received it; although there is the off chance the will his impending lynch and him giving up at the end that he may have simply forgot to send it before his lynch. Hard to tell what exactly happened there, no one has claimed to have been blocked last night yet, but half of the actions that would be able to know if they were blocked haven't been spoken for yet. For other roles, if/when commander comes back to post something of any substance he could always tell us where he sent his role last night, but I don't have high hopes for that role yielding anything useful. Everyone of course knows who they sent their own role to and can therefor make their own determination about the recipient being dead, missing in action, or not speaking up. As things stand, unless aage descends from the heavens bringing answers we might have to accept that last night was a bust where we didn't gain much info and aren't quite sure what happened.

Where has aage dissapeared too?

Speaking of aage, he hasn't logged in in a week. I think we need to decide how we will handle his absence. Our choices look like: try to have him replaced, have him modkilled, lynch him, continue the game without him, or sit around and hope he comes back. As crucial as he seems to be to this day, I don't see the last option remaining viable any longer, the game is stagnating and we have a deadline for next Wednesday to figure out a lynch for. (And with the less than ideal back pages of discussion and the lack of a "magic fix" to be found in last nights actions, we are gonna have to put up some serious discussion here soon.)

[Skoffin]

I see your point, it does appear that we have been using this gifts as a crutch. From what I've gathered so far I do feel as though safari, aage and naxus are likely town, whereas for scum 'd peg haggis or tail. I have not be thorough on that yet though.


As for aage, to me he does seem the dependable sort so his absence strikes me as rather strange. He's also missed turns at risk. I'm inclined to believe that something came up, rather than him forgetting to check in or what have you. I'd consider leaving him a few days to return, or perhaps replacing if we are able. I don't think a lynch would be good (for I do believe him to be town) or a modkill for now. If he doesn't return by next game day or we cannot find a replacement by then than it might be prudent to modkill. Naturally no one should gift him if the role isn't active before night.

My thoughts may not be clear, I can't really tell by this point. I should have gone to bed 9 hours ago

[Commander9]

A rather rough game to try get back into... *sighs*

Anyways, I've got no gifts and sent mine to Safari.

[spiesr]

Anyways, I've got no gifts and sent mine to Safari.

Interesting, safariguy has made no mention of receiving your gift last night. You might want to double check if you really did send it to him. If you did but he says he didn't get it then we have a serious situation on our hands. (Probably)

[Commander9]

Interesting, safariguy has made no mention of receiving your gift last night. You might want to double check if you really did send it to him. If you did but he says he didn't get it then we have a serious situation on our hands. (Probably)

I think so, but I'll PM / to make sure.

[safariguy5]

Anyways, I've got no gifts and sent mine to Safari.

Interesting, safariguy has made no mention of receiving your gift last night. You might want to double check if you really did send it to him. If you did but he says he didn't get it then we have a serious situation on our hands. (Probably)

I really only got the watcher gift. Are you sure you didn't send it to aage?

[Commander9]

I really only got the watcher gift. Are you sure you didn't send it to aage?

Yes, it was not going to aage - 100%.

[Commander9]

Apparently to no one as the mod received my gift too late.

[/]

Hey.... you all know you have the powers to send gifts and most of you have the power to vote, right?
Just checking, vote count is still exactly nothing. Well, it's not a vote for no lynch either, I wonder if someone random should die in that case?
8 alive, 5 to lynch.
I can start looking for a replace for aage if you all don't prefer a modkill?

[safariguy5]

I suspect he got most of the gifts and we're all being paralyzed by it. I'll go with my earlier feeling that scum might get real active and try to make themselves target of gifts so that everyone sends them gifts. Happened with Mr. Squirrel, could have happened with aage.

vote aage

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Actually since he voted naxus on deadline, and squirrel after an investigation result. I'm going to vote Haggis.

@ aage's plan. It all hinges on the assumption that the percentage of negative roles within mafia will be a lot larger than the percentage of negative roles within town. I'm not sure if that's a valid assumption.
I agree that mafia may not have great presents(as to not be overpowered), but since town is obviously larger there may well be a few townies with non-stellar gifts as well.

He also seemed to rationalize early on whether gifts would be in the town's interest. While I think his point is certainly valid, I can't rule out the possibility that someone would say this to justify gifts.

He was also defensive of Skoffin during her BW. Now, normally I wouldn't think too much of it because karel's case was weak, but this would be an easy chance to defend someone who would flip town, thus appearing pro-town. Mostly this:

This is indeed a most ridiculous wagon. I think odds are good that there's scum on it, especially this close to the deadline.

when the VC on that page plus the subsequent voters were none of the known scum, which would be a good way for scum to also deflect attention from scummates.

-Tails

[Haggis_McMutton]

Actually since he voted naxus on deadline, and squirrel after an investigation result. I'm going to vote Haggis.

@ aage's plan. It all hinges on the assumption that the percentage of negative roles within mafia will be a lot larger than the percentage of negative roles within town. I'm not sure if that's a valid assumption.
I agree that mafia may not have great presents(as to not be overpowered), but since town is obviously larger there may well be a few townies with non-stellar gifts as well.

He also seemed to rationalize early on whether gifts would be in the town's interest. While I think his point is certainly valid, I can't rule out the possibility that someone would say this to justify gifts.

He was also defensive of Skoffin during her BW. Now, normally I wouldn't think too much of it because karel's case was weak, but this would be an easy chance to defend someone who would flip town, thus appearing pro-town. Mostly this:

This is indeed a most ridiculous wagon. I think odds are good that there's scum on it, especially this close to the deadline.

when the VC on that page plus the subsequent voters were none of the known scum, which would be a good way for scum to also deflect attention from scummates.

-Tails

So I:
preferred a lynch on naxus rather than a no lynch on D3
voted for squirrel the scum
defended someone against a (really) weak case
pointed out that people willing to so easily go with a (really) weak case seem scummy

Which of these actions are scummy?

[Skoffin]

I suspect he got most of the gifts and we're all being paralyzed by it. I'll go with my earlier feeling that scum might get real active and try to make themselves target of gifts so that everyone sends them gifts. Happened with Mr. Squirrel, could have happened with aage.

vote aage

While it's an interesting theory, my doubt stems from the switcheroo between pancake and aage on the night pancake died. This suggests that the mafia tried to kill aage which would remove the chances of him being one of them. Unless there was some sort of super mega bluff on aage's part, but I'm not sure how they would have predicted that he'd get swapped that night to save him and I'm not sure mafia are even allowed to target themselves directly. Unless there is a SK or 'second team' out there.

As for Tail/Haggis, not sure where I am on that one yet but I do think at least one of you is scum. Just not sure which one yet.
Ga7 was the first to 'accuse' me of anything on that silly case, but informed us it was a reaction test after Karel turned on me. Both of them turned out town. I could see it as an opportunity for a scum to get in on the argument to buy some town points. But if two townies are willing to fight about something it doesn't really seem implausible to have a third townie join in.

[safariguy5]

I suspect he got most of the gifts and we're all being paralyzed by it. I'll go with my earlier feeling that scum might get real active and try to make themselves target of gifts so that everyone sends them gifts. Happened with Mr. Squirrel, could have happened with aage.

vote aage

While it's an interesting theory, my doubt stems from the switcheroo between pancake and aage on the night pancake died. This suggests that the mafia tried to kill aage which would remove the chances of him being one of them. Unless there was some sort of super mega bluff on aage's part, but I'm not sure how they would have predicted that he'd get swapped that night to save him and I'm not sure mafia are even allowed to target themselves directly. Unless there is a SK or 'second team' out there.

As for Tail/Haggis, not sure where I am on that one yet but I do think at least one of you is scum. Just not sure which one yet.
Ga7 was the first to 'accuse' me of anything on that silly case, but informed us it was a reaction test after Karel turned on me. Both of them turned out town. I could see it as an opportunity for a scum to get in on the argument to buy some town points. But if two townies are willing to fight about something it doesn't really seem implausible to have a third townie join in.

If you ask me which one out of tails/haggis seems more suspicious, I would lean tails just because I don't seem to remember him contributing really much besides voting. Also, hasn't he been accusing haggis for 2-3 days now. Maybe the reason why nobody's taken you seriously tails is because I haven't seen haggis do anything really questionable and you seem to be digging at anything you can find.

That said, haggis hasn't been real helpful either, but I'm more willing to put tails to the rope first and see if we can't get some information with night actions out of haggis.

[spiesr]

While it's an interesting theory, my doubt stems from the switcheroo between pancake and aage on the night pancake died. This suggests that the mafia tried to kill aage which would remove the chances of him being one of them. Unless there was some sort of super mega bluff on aage's part, but I'm not sure how they would have predicted that he'd get swapped that night to save him and I'm not sure mafia are even allowed to target themselves directly. Unless there is a SK or 'second team' out there.

Good point. Since the scum did not control the bus driver that night it would seems to indicate that they would not have targeted one of their own. One thing to note is that this is not 100% certainty though. Since the bus driver power was in pancakemix's hands that night he can't tell us what he did with it. The things that lead us to assume that he switched himself with aage are your claim that your attempt to mason with him was redirected to aage, and Fircoal's targeting the bandages at pancakmix failed to prevent his death. For the Fircoal part, in theroy he could instead have been blocked. We don't really know what exactly happened with the blocking that night as the jailkeeper was kwanton's gift which he claims to have sent to pancakemix (we don't know if he actually sent it to a scummate instead) and the roleblocker was used by kwanton. (he claimed to have used it on naxus, but there is no way to prove it) All this being said, it seem more likely that the bus driver really was used to switch aage and pancakemix that night.

As for Tail/Haggis, not sure where I am on that one yet but I do think at least one of you is scum. Just not sure which one yet.

Alright, taking a look at action relating to them. Haggis only appears once in my chart, where you masoned with him night 1. This says that nobody really trusts him with their gift, but not much else. I don't really have anything to say about him now other than he has been flying under my radar all game. As for TAILGUNN3R, he claims to have received Jailkeeper, watcher and mason night 2, and the vote depriving caramels night 3. Analyzing these gifts, I first find that the Jailkeeper is kwanton's gift. Kwanton sent this gift to scumbuddy Squirrel on night 1. Due to the abundance of gifts Squirrel received, kwanton presumably did not know which gift he had exactly by day when he sent it to TAILGUNN3R, but could have narrowed it down to jailkeeper, doctor, or watcher. Kwanton claims to have sent this gift to pancake night 3, but there is no proof of this. So there is a possibility when kwanton gifted tails he was gifting a scumbuddy. Now as for what tails did with that gift, he claims to have jailed kwanton. Night 2 there was no kill, so with kwanton being scum these could fit together and point town. However there is another way the kill could have been prevented, the scum could have tried to kill safari and been prevent by the doctor action. One thing that I find interesting to note is that kwanton had the tracker and sane cop gifts that night. Have a scum mate claim to have blocked you is an easy way for the scum to prevent those gifts from helping the town in any way without having to risk lying about the results. Not much to say about the watcher action, it returned that nobody visited Fircoal. The mason with aage also doesn't tell us much other then seem to imply to that two might not be scum mates, under the theory that it would be more useful for the scum to mason up with actual townies than simply waste the power. On to night 3. If you believe that the vote robbing caramels are a mafia gift, then TAILGUNN3R claiming to have received them would point towards him not being scum. I will note that with how late in the day he finally mentioned receiving said gift, there is the possibility that he faked getting them.
And I really need to learn how to break up these rants so they aren't just a block of rambling text...

[TA1LGUNN3R]

The naxus vote itself wouldn't be bad, just that when added to the other points, is scummier.

You only voted for squirrel (I think you were 5 or 6 of 7 needed) after a confirmed investigation and it was clear that he was going to be lynched.

Defended a townie (which as scum you would know) against a weak case, earning you brownie points.

Neither kwan or squirrel were on that BW. 2 of 3 or 4 would be either be half or the majority of the mafia. It seems likely that at least one of them would have been on the BW as well. However, it was a weak case, as you said, and so obviously neither of them felt that trying for a Skoffin lynch would amount to anything. A perfect opportunity for someone to say that it is likely scum are on the BW when he knows that there wasn't at least 2 of them on there.

-Tails

[spiesr]

So I am currently trawling through the previous days of this thread and I noticed this:

Just curious about something. Since you were a replacement, did you / tell you what gifts campin/you received day 1?

He didn't gift any and slash didn't mention whether he received any. I could ask if you want me too.

On my chart the only gifts that weren't claimed for night 1 were Squirrel's commuter gift and the vote stealing box of caramels that TAILGUNN3R claimed to have received on night 3. Something doesn't add up here!

[Commander9]

So I am currently trawling through the previous days of this thread and I noticed this:

Just curious about something. Since you were a replacement, did you / tell you what gifts campin/you received day 1?

He didn't gift any and slash didn't mention whether he received any. I could ask if you want me too.

On my chart the only gifts that weren't claimed for night 1 were Squirrel's commuter gift and the vote stealing box of caramels that TAILGUNN3R claimed to have received on night 3. Something doesn't add up here!

Damn, good catch. Hmm, Tg, any comments?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Zugzwang.

I am indeed the caramel gifter. I sent them to Saf D2 I believe, but he go so many that I wasn't sure which was which. I sent it to no one D3, and when no one claimed it I did, knowing it was mine. I then sent it to spiesr for whatever reason.

-Tails

[Haggis_McMutton]

Zugzwang.

I am indeed the caramel gifter. I sent them to Saf D2 I believe, but he go so many that I wasn't sure which was which. I sent it to no one D3, and when no one claimed it I did, knowing it was mine. I then sent it to spiesr for whatever reason.

-Tails

Wait, why would you claim you got them and stop yourself from voting?
That just makes no sense for a town player ...

And why would you then send them to spiesr?

Very nice catch spiesr btw.

[Commander9]

I guess we know who to vote:

Vote TG.

[spiesr]

Related to the above the following quotes from day 4 may contain a contradiction:

spiesr, I did not receive any gifts yesterday, and hence did not have any night actions.

Hey guys I would hammer, but I got the caramels last night, so I can't vote.

Fastposted. I can't vote for him by the way or I would.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Damn you spiesr and your excel spreadsheet.

Wait, why would you claim you got them and stop yourself from voting?
That just makes no sense for a town player ...

Honestly I forgot to gift somebody on that day. I then hoped that by claiming I received I could at least confuse spiesr who I knew was keeping track of the gifts claimed. If I had stayed silent, I figured that since they didn't show up, and I claimed earlier that day that I didn't receive them, that someone would draw a conclusion.

As I can't make up any lie at this point, I must follow Kwan and tip my king. Sorry, and gg all. I really liked this game set-up, and would like to see some sort of continuation, however I have a few points about how to level the game a bit, but I'll wait till the game finishes.

-Tails

[spiesr]

As I can't make up any lie at this point, I must follow Kwan and tip my king. Sorry, and gg all. I really liked this game set-up, and would like to see some sort of continuation, however I have a few points about how to level the game a bit, but I'll wait till the game finishes.

So, are you the last scum, or do we have one more to find?