Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

[barterer2002]

I'm also curious as to where you're seeing a clan war. Do you have any examples of this?

[Metsfanmax]

...many of the people in this thread have not been able to contain themselves from turning into a clan war; ... many seem to want to turn it into an attack against a person or a group of people rather than a chance to be part of establishing a set of rules ...

Have to disagree with you here, mets.

Firstly I don't believe this has turned into a clan war, of course the clans are naturally the interested parties since the alleged cheating occurred in clan wars, but there has been an absolute minimum of trolling, baiting and flaming. On the contrary most of the posts are well thought out and some good evidence has been brought.

Based on the posts I've read, the relevant parties are less interested in setting an actual example for all clans to follow than in indicting josko and his friends for a practice that surely occurs in all clans to some extent. The fact that they have done this without using inflammatory language is to be commended, but I still see this as too narrow in its focus. This should be about all clans, not just the one with the most flagrant violation (at least, that we know of).

[Night Strike]

...many of the people in this thread have not been able to contain themselves from turning into a clan war; ... many seem to want to turn it into an attack against a person or a group of people rather than a chance to be part of establishing a set of rules ...

Have to disagree with you here, mets.

Firstly I don't believe this has turned into a clan war, of course the clans are naturally the interested parties since the alleged cheating occurred in clan wars, but there has been an absolute minimum of trolling, baiting and flaming. On the contrary most of the posts are well thought out and some good evidence has been brought.

Based on the posts I've read, the relevant parties are less interested in setting an actual example for all clans to follow than in indicting josko and his friends for a practice that surely occurs in all clans to some extent. The fact that they have done this without using inflammatory language is to be commended, but I still see this as too narrow in its focus. This should be about all clans, not just the one with the most flagrant violation (at least, that we know of).

Except the statement that "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" is not actually true. It's only some clans that do it, and this case is specifically about KORT doing it.

[Metsfanmax]

Except the statement that "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" is not actually true. It's only some clans that do it, and this case is specifically about KORT doing it.

It was my understanding that the whole problem here is that we don't know to what extent it occurs because of the possibility that people will just stop posting when they sit. Is it possible that this is not a widespread occurrence? Sure. But if it can happen here it can happen in any clan so I think we need to be sure that there results a clear standard set for all clans and not just a punishment against one person who did get caught. Of course, that's up to the C&A mods and the rest of the staff to determine, but that's certainly what I would like to see result from all of this.

[Night Strike]

Except the statement that "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" is not actually true. It's only some clans that do it, and this case is specifically about KORT doing it.

It was my understanding that the whole problem here is that we don't know to what extent it occurs because of the possibility that people will just stop posting when they sit.

You're right, we don't. But I for one know that G1 does nothing of the sort (hence even the missed turns in our challenge with KORT), so the statement that ALL clans do it is false.

[Bones2484]

the relevant parties are less interested in setting an actual example for all clans to follow than in indicting josko and his friends for a practice that surely occurs in all clans to some extent.

Then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and implore you to stop making inane assumptions.

I have nothing against KORT or Josko. Before this was brought to my attention in recent games, G1 had already had two great challenges with KORT and was looking forward to the third; I have always found them to be great opponents. KORT is one of the rare clans that doesn't seem to have trolls or hateable members from my direct experiences.

As for "[it] occurs in all clans to some extent" G1 has made it clear multiple times in this thread that we only take turns for someone when they are on vacation. We've stated that no one in the clan has other people's standard passwords and that we only change to temporary passwords to hand to a few people when we are away. As NS pointed out, we (sadly) miss a few turns every challenge because people have real lives and we don't share passwords.

In fact, if you look through the thread, I've even questioned the theory that "top clans all have each other's passwords" and even submitted that question to the C&A team in a private message as I find that to be a potential breach of the rules as well. I haven't heard a response, but I hope we hear their opinions on this matter as well.

You are absolutely correct in your statements about the possibilities of people simply stop announcing when they cover turns for others. The only way we were able to form an argument was because Josko followed the rules in the first place about announcing. Sure we need an account sitting feature, but I also hope the C&A team informs us of how they will fight this in the future knowing the above if this is indeed against the rules.

So, I'm fully in favor of setting an actual example for all clans to follow. At this point, I find the entire clan challenge credibility to be at stake and that would be a serious blow to the advancement of clans as a whole. If anyone finds any other clan doing this, I'd highly encourage them to submit additional C&A reports. Though, I'd suggest that any other threads wait until a ruling on this case just to make sure it actually is against the rules as I believe it is.

[BoganGod]

any ruling expected this year? guess it takes a while to look back through every game played by members of kort for the past how many months? Initial report pretty open ended in naming names. Is that a tactic that is acceptable to use in the future. Are we to look forward to lovely reports along the lines of "Possible secret diplomacy, red and MAYBE everyone else in the game, except myself. Mods please check carefully, I shouldn't have lost". This could get very interesting, what ever the ruling will be setting precedent for the site. Here is hoping that there will be at least a 3paragraph detailed explanation of ruling when it happens. Thanks in advance, the Bogan divinity

Maybe a weekly wrap up from the mods would be super cool

[codeblue1018]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

Although I do not know much about the case besides the little ive read, I can tell you from my experience with Josko and a few other members of Kort that they are stand up guys; the main goal is to win and win fairly; the Kort members I played with were polite, very competitive and most important, fair. Again, from my experience, I'd be shocked if any of these alegations come to fruition; I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cb

[BoganGod]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

Although I do not know much about the case besides the little ive read, I can tell you from my experience with Josko and a few other members of Kort that they are stand up guys; the main goal is to win and win fairly; the Kort members I played with were polite, very competitive and most important, fair. Again, from my experience, I'd be shocked if any of these alegations come to fruition; I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cb

With this charactor reference I'm convinced that all members of Kort are saints. I knew bruce was an enlightened bovine, loes is one of the most amazing women on site, masli has a sense of humour(rare in people with funny coloured usernames), but now with no less than a man that has been brig THREE TIMES providing charactor references. I KNOW, I BELIEVE, I've SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!!!
All jests aside, guess we might have to disregard codeblue's comments, is obviously delusional. Come on, he ended his post with "I guess we'll all find out soon enough". Obviously delusional. Is this thread staying open to hold all clans up for ridicule? Seeing how many people will get in here and play kick the cows? Come on make a ruling already.

[codeblue1018]

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.

see, but the problem is, people have given concrete evidence of abuse and you have not really offered a defense other than, "we don't cheat." do you see where the problem lies with that? the last person to be let off the hook due to "reputation" was sits-a-holic, and they came back and actually looked at the evidence and we all know what happened to him. unless you put up some evidence, your defense doesn't hold much water...-el Jesus negro

Do you really think Josko would be let off the hook for "reputation"? Josko? He's not exactly the darling of the community, however unfair that may be.

As for the constant demands that evidence needs to be publicly shown.. maybe the C&A guys need to do their job and either post the evidence publicly if they intend to, or start moderating this thread if they don't. Why is it on us? The evidence has been sent to everyone who should have it, they need to decide what to do with it. For all I know they wouldn't like us making the entire defense known.

Although I do not know much about the case besides the little ive read, I can tell you from my experience with Josko and a few other members of Kort that they are stand up guys; the main goal is to win and win fairly; the Kort members I played with were polite, very competitive and most important, fair. Again, from my experience, I'd be shocked if any of these alegations come to fruition; I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cb

With this charactor reference I'm convinced that all members of Kort are saints. I knew bruce was an enlightened bovine, loes is one of the most amazing women on site, masli has a sense of humour(rare in people with funny coloured usernames), but now with no less than a man that has been brig THREE TIMES providing charactor references. I KNOW, I BELIEVE, I've SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!!!
All jests aside, guess we might have to disregard codeblue's comments, is obviously delusional. Come on, he ended his post with "I guess we'll all find out soon enough". Obviously delusional. Is this thread staying open to hold all clans up for ridicule? Seeing how many people will get in here and play kick the cows? Come on make a ruling already.

LMAO! Bogan, I'll just let that slide instead of embarrassing you in an open forum; keep up the good work; your class is shining brightly so that we may all see your true colors little fella.

[nippersean]

Legally, as the accuser, the onus of proof is yours. You can't take a small sample size and "extrapolate" it. If you think there's more abuse in games you didn't check, you have to check them and find them.

That is what I was referring to. And you can consider the "local children" to be witnesses. Some witnesses are more reliable than others, some shouldn't speak at all - just like real life, eh?

Except there's no "judge" to throw out incorrect evidence, no way to object to hearsay or speculation, or any of the many forms of misdirection that can be used...do you see how absurd the analogy is?

Saying "the onus of proof is yours" is accurate. This isn't a court of law, but if you want to accuse someone, you have to prove they did it. You can't just say "there's probably a bunch more" and make it so. The fact that he used the word "legally" doesn't mean we have to draw out a complete courtroom analogy. In fact, taking that little word to make such a ridiculous argument is one of the forms of misdirection I was referring to. And you wonder why he didn't post the defense publicly.

They all ready posted the proof Josko - it was you

[nippersean]

Every post for the last few pages in this thread has done nothing to help the C&A mods resolve the situation; it has simply been back and forth banter over ground that has already been covered. I do not feel like reporting 100 posts.

Maybe if the members of KORT had posted their defense in public, we could actually be discussing IT rather than discussing why it isn't being posted. Sounds like a winning plan for all sides (except maybe for KORT, but that's to be expected).

Buddy, your attitude is so annoying.
Good there is no medal to gain for the most annoying person of the site.

We, KORT, dont need to cheat for playing games/clanwars. And surely dont have intention for winning games/wars unfairly.
All we want is to have fun and play some games/wars together. And this is what we do !
Sometimes we win, sometimes we dont. We beat you fair ! Not the first time and it will not be the last time.
Well, actually i hope we will never play you again.
Very dissappointing to see this childish behaviour of some members of G1.

But you have cheated sjnap - and systematically - it's proven in this very
thread - read it and you'll see exactly where you cheated.

[king achilles]

After looking into the evidence and defense that was presented to us, the following players have been warned for account sitting abuse:

josko.ri
Moonchild
Rodion

A user or group of users who loosely share their accounts among one another to improve their score and gaming by means of strategically allowing others to take their turns for them at specific times, or allowing well versed and ranked users to essentially play select games on their account for them to boost their score and rank, is another facet of Account Sitting Abuse.

So far, the case has it's point to show us that there are players out there who loosely share their passwords with one another so that they can take care of each other's accounts. This practice is bordering in account sharing and influences the account owners to be less responsible of their games, since they already have this thinking that someone is going to save them from missing at least one turn or more.

For this case, at some point, josko.ri could/should have simply told the other players to stop relying on him to take turns for them. Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn. If you are capable of taking your turn, then take it. Do not make someone be responsible for your own account or lean too much for his advise.

Should we be thankful when you are on vacation, and you are supposedly not available to be online at the time, but you still manage to take some turns while leaving other games for your sitter? Perhaps it just gives more complication as it becomes suspicious if you really are unavailable in the first place or if you just assigned someone to play some specific games for you.

We know that people share their passwords with others in case of emergency. Some may also be guilty of playing other people's turns even when not needed simply because they have free access to that account. How can this be controlled? We certainly do not want to discourage people not posting in the game chat if they are sitting for someone for fear of any possible issues regarding account sitting. Until a sitter feature is encoded, it would be impossible to control this practice and it mostly falls on you not to abuse your privileges or share your accounts with one another.

[Ace Rimmer]

And you can do it with impunity until you have been warned, since the first step on the escalating scale is a warning, no matter how much you do it.

[Bones2484]

And you can do it with impunity until you have been warned, since the first step on the escalating scale is a warning, no matter how much you do it.

Which is a shame since it had been originally reported and brought to admin attention almost a year ago...

But you're right. This was the best-case scenario for those of us who thought this was against the rules. At least we have it in writing now and hopefully if anyone else is doing this, they will stop. I just fear that people will stop announcing when they sit just to avoid any penalties in the first place.

This case alone should be proof enough that a sitting feature is needed immediately. Otherwise clan challenges and team tournaments are going to quickly lose any credibility that they may have left.

[nippersean]

I think it's a fucking joke warning, all ready happening CAUGHT vs FOED - total bullshit - they replaced josko with sjnap, who's all ready sat in 2 of the 3 games i'm playing in - rd 2 - crucial turns - very disappointing outcome

[jefjef]

I think it's a fucking joke warning, all ready happening CAUGHT vs FOED - total bullshit - they replaced josko with sjnap, who's all ready sat in 2 of the 3 games i'm playing in - rd 2 - crucial turns - very disappointing outcome

Actually not a bad ruling and as per the guidelines. Now if they continue doing it then it will be a month site ban. You can be sure that the hunters are closely watching these accounts.

[Gold Knight]

I think it's a fucking joke warning, all ready happening CAUGHT vs FOED - total bullshit - they replaced josko with sjnap, who's all ready sat in 2 of the 3 games i'm playing in - rd 2 - crucial turns - very disappointing outcome

Actually not a bad ruling and as per the guidelines. Now if they continue doing it then it will be a month site ban. You can be sure that the hunters are closely watching these accounts.

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

[Evil Semp]

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

If you let a member who is site banned use your account that could be considered account sharing which is frowned on.

[ljex]

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

If you let a member who is site banned use your account that could be considered account sharing which is frowned on.

frowned on or against the rules? because that is a big difference

[Evil Semp]

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

If you let a member who is site banned use your account that could be considered account sharing which is frowned on.

frowned on or against the rules? because that is a big difference

All cheating is frowned upon. May I ask if you intent on letting a banned member use your account? so let me cross my T's and dot my i's get my crayons and draw you a picture. Yes it is against the rules.

[eddie2]

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

If you let a member who is site banned use your account that could be considered account sharing which is frowned on.

frowned on or against the rules? because that is a big difference

All cheating is frowned upon. May I ask if you intent on letting a banned member use your account? so let me cross my T's and dot my i's get my crayons and draw you a picture. Yes it is against the rules.

lol 2 late evil he already did with commander when he was banned.

[Serbia]

You can be sure that the hunters are closely watching these accounts.

No, actually, I don't think we can be sure of that. I don't think the multi hunters are going to waste their time looking at these three accounts on a daily basis for any period of time to make sure they're not still doing this. They've got other things to do.

[ljex]

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

If you let a member who is site banned use your account that could be considered account sharing which is frowned on.

frowned on or against the rules? because that is a big difference

All cheating is frowned upon. May I ask if you intent on letting a banned member use your account? so let me cross my T's and dot my i's get my crayons and draw you a picture. Yes it is against the rules.

i thought so, but i didnt think you would only say frowned on if it was against the rules...just say it is against the rules

[Evil Semp]

Does the month ban stop them from covering turns for others though?

If you let a member who is site banned use your account that could be considered account sharing which is frowned on.

frowned on or against the rules? because that is a big difference

All cheating is frowned upon. May I ask if you intent on letting a banned member use your account? so let me cross my T's and dot my i's get my crayons and draw you a picture. Yes it is against the rules.

i thought so, but i didnt think you would only say frowned on if it was against the rules...just say it is against the rules

That's the way I talk. Why ask the question when you know the answer?