sorry folks, I can't keep up with these threads. i'm going to bow out.
to answer someone's question: When do "normal" people get power? -- I really don't know.
Here's what I know:
our country spends too much.
our taxes are pretty low historically, and our economy has done just fine in the past with higher taxes, so there is room to raise them.
what do we need to cut? well, the big spenders are Military, Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security.
Increase the retirement age for Social Security and its solvent.
and thats where it gets hard. Neither party is even talking about cutting military, which is a shame and its very revealing. If you aren't serious about cutting the military, you are not serious about solving this big problem.
Medicare/Medicaid is huge and bloated and growing at a very unsustainable pace. We spend more on it than other countries spend on their Universal Healthcare. But most working people and nearly every wealthy person never uses it and never thinks they will need it and thinks that its just poor lazy people that abuse it.
So, apparently, they think if we cut it, the lazy people will all go get jobs, and everything will be fixed. In reality, people will take to the streets in anger and desperation. Hospitals are required to treat anyone that shows up at the ER, so they would be screwed.
So how do we cut Medicare/Medicaid without chaos? I don't know.
How do we cut the Military? Well, we can GTFO of all the places we arent needed and bring those men and women home to rebuild our country. Cause infrastructure at home creates jobs at home better than tax cuts and foreign wars combined.
TL;DR -- we have to cut military and medicare/medicaid. if you aren't proposing serious plans to do that then you aren't trying to solve the problem. tax cuts are not a solution right now.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
I would really, really like to see where you got that intel from, homes.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
I would really, really like to see where you got that intel from, homes.
Phatscotty wrote:
Everyone should pay something.
replacing the highly unjust income tax system with a fair tax or national sales tax would accomplish this.
I think the saying is something like "It's time everyone needs to have some skin in the game"
The "Fair Tax" is actually highly regressive and not at all fair to the poor OR to the middle class.
Unless a certain income is given an exemption.
For example, your first $20,000 isn't taxed; if you make X amount.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
We need to BOTH cut taxes and spending, but the point is that for the last 30 years, the wealthiest have been getting huge benefits and not paying much at all, compared to everyone else.
The Tea Party pretends to be about cutting taxes for the average people, but in truth is nothing more than another bash at keeping the wealthiest in charge and in power. Its little difference from Reagan's "trickle down" rhetoric. At least then, politicians knew they were being dupes. Now, it seems many lack even that sense.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
We need to BOTH cut taxes and spending, but the point is that for the last 30 years, the wealthiest have been getting huge benefits and not paying much at all, compared to everyone else.
The Tea Party pretends to be about cutting taxes for the average people, but in truth is nothing more than another bash at keeping the wealthiest in charge and in power. Its little difference from Reagan's "trickle down" rhetoric. At least then, politicians knew they were being dupes. Now, it seems many lack even that sense.
What's sad is that you can actually say that with a straight face. The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people! That means they ARE paying their fair share. Furthermore, every single dollar paid for working a job also comes from rich people. You don't get jobs from poor people. If we're going to keep this income tax system, every person needs to pay a minimum of 1% of their income in taxes. Even if that income comes from welfare or other government bribes.
Night Strike wrote: What's sad is that you can actually say that with a straight face. The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people! That means they ARE paying their fair share. Furthermore, every single dollar paid for working a job also comes from rich people. You don't get jobs from poor people. If we're going to keep this income tax system, every person needs to pay a minimum of 1% of their income in taxes. Even if that income comes from welfare or other government bribes.
The top 51% are not the "rich"... try again.
And no, but you could care less about truth. Someone told you x is true and so you will persist in believing it. you don't even know how to question what you are told, not really.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
We need to BOTH cut taxes and spending, but the point is that for the last 30 years, the wealthiest have been getting huge benefits and not paying much at all, compared to everyone else.
The Tea Party pretends to be about cutting taxes for the average people, but in truth is nothing more than another bash at keeping the wealthiest in charge and in power. Its little difference from Reagan's "trickle down" rhetoric. At least then, politicians knew they were being dupes. Now, it seems many lack even that sense.
What's sad is that you can actually say that with a straight face. The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people! That means they ARE paying their fair share.
Wait, what? You consider the top 51% of Americans to be "rich"? Holy shit, Night Strike.
Night Strike wrote:Furthermore, every single dollar paid for working a job also comes from rich people. You don't get jobs from poor people. If we're going to keep this income tax system, every person needs to pay a minimum of 1% of their income in taxes. Even if that income comes from welfare or other government bribes.
See, this is the sort of shit that makes people not take you seriously, Night Strike.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
We need to BOTH cut taxes and spending, but the point is that for the last 30 years, the wealthiest have been getting huge benefits and not paying much at all, compared to everyone else.
The Tea Party pretends to be about cutting taxes for the average people, but in truth is nothing more than another bash at keeping the wealthiest in charge and in power. Its little difference from Reagan's "trickle down" rhetoric. At least then, politicians knew they were being dupes. Now, it seems many lack even that sense.
What's sad is that you can actually say that with a straight face. The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people! That means they ARE paying their fair share. Furthermore, every single dollar paid for working a job also comes from rich people. You don't get jobs from poor people. If we're going to keep this income tax system, every person needs to pay a minimum of 1% of their income in taxes. Even if that income comes from welfare or other government bribes.
Every time you cite that statistic I am going to post this graph. Also, yet again, every time you cite that statistic I will remind you that it is only the FEDERAL INCOME TAX. As you love to complain, there are plenty more other taxes.
The United States is in a state of a ridiculous wealth and income disparity. You however relent on trying to sink the middle and working class while giving more and more to the wealthy. And the weaker the middle class gets the more you insist on giving the rich in tax cuts, the more the deficit grows, the more the cries for spending cuts and the worse the situation is for the middle class.
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
We need to BOTH cut taxes and spending, but the point is that for the last 30 years, the wealthiest have been getting huge benefits and not paying much at all, compared to everyone else.
The Tea Party pretends to be about cutting taxes for the average people, but in truth is nothing more than another bash at keeping the wealthiest in charge and in power. Its little difference from Reagan's "trickle down" rhetoric. At least then, politicians knew they were being dupes. Now, it seems many lack even that sense.
What's sad is that you can actually say that with a straight face. The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people! That means they ARE paying their fair share.
Wait, what? You consider the top 51% of Americans to be "rich"? Holy shit, Night Strike.
Night Strike wrote:Furthermore, every single dollar paid for working a job also comes from rich people. You don't get jobs from poor people. If we're going to keep this income tax system, every person needs to pay a minimum of 1% of their income in taxes. Even if that income comes from welfare or other government bribes.
See, this is the sort of shit that makes people not take you seriously, Night Strike.
Umm, no, I don't consider the top 51% to be rich. I'm saying the top 51% are paying ALL of the taxes, so the other 49% need to stop trying to tax everybody else. How can a country survive when only half (and soon to be less than half) of its citizens are paying taxes? It can't. Once the bottom 49% are paying a minimum of 1% of their income in federal income taxes, then we can start discussing taxes on the "rich".
Nobunaga wrote:... Taxing the evil rich to pay down the debt is nothing but smoke & mirrors meant to maintain / increase class envy and redistribute earned wealth. It is socialist idealogy, plain and simple.
... Taxing everyone in the US who makes over 500K a year, at 100%, would take something like a thousand years plus to pay off the last 2 years of federal spending. ... so why are we targetting the "millionaires and billionaires"? ...
... See paragraph 1.
...
We need to BOTH cut taxes and spending, but the point is that for the last 30 years, the wealthiest have been getting huge benefits and not paying much at all, compared to everyone else.
The Tea Party pretends to be about cutting taxes for the average people, but in truth is nothing more than another bash at keeping the wealthiest in charge and in power. Its little difference from Reagan's "trickle down" rhetoric. At least then, politicians knew they were being dupes. Now, it seems many lack even that sense.
What's sad is that you can actually say that with a straight face. The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people! That means they ARE paying their fair share.
Wait, what? You consider the top 51% of Americans to be "rich"? Holy shit, Night Strike.
Night Strike wrote:Furthermore, every single dollar paid for working a job also comes from rich people. You don't get jobs from poor people. If we're going to keep this income tax system, every person needs to pay a minimum of 1% of their income in taxes. Even if that income comes from welfare or other government bribes.
See, this is the sort of shit that makes people not take you seriously, Night Strike.
Umm, no, I don't consider the top 51% to be rich. I'm saying the top 51% are paying ALL of the taxes, so the other 49% need to stop trying to tax everybody else.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Above, you stated the following:
"The top 51% of income earners pay 100% of the income taxes. Yes, every single tax dollar comes from rich people!"
Therefore, you ARE, IN FACT, saying that you consider the top 51% to be rich. So...why is it that you believe 51% of the United States is rich?
Last edited by Woodruff on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
How nice! Do you have any crayons? I'd love to see you express yourself further.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
Night Strike wrote:
Umm, no, I don't consider the top 51% to be rich. I'm saying the top 51% are paying ALL of the taxes, so the other 49% need to stop trying to tax everybody else. How can a country survive when only half (and soon to be less than half) of its citizens are paying taxes? It can't. Once the bottom 49% are paying a minimum of 1% of their income in federal income taxes, then we can start discussing taxes on the "rich".
The bottom 49% are never going to pay enough to really matter, though I would agree they, too should pay more.
Right now, its folks like greekdog, etc who have the "audacity" to earn enough to be reasonably "comfortable", but who are not truly wealthy and small but profitable businesses who are being asked to bear the brunt.
The very wealthiest dop pay little and are the ones who benefitted most from tax cuts in past years. Also, it is often the biggest corporations that benefit from subsidies.
Night Strike wrote:
Umm, no, I don't consider the top 51% to be rich. I'm saying the top 51% are paying ALL of the taxes, so the other 49% need to stop trying to tax everybody else. How can a country survive when only half (and soon to be less than half) of its citizens are paying taxes? It can't. Once the bottom 49% are paying a minimum of 1% of their income in federal income taxes, then we can start discussing taxes on the "rich".
The bottom 49% are never going to pay enough to really matter, though I would agree they, too should pay more.
I never claimed they would be able to pay enough to make a major difference in the deficit. For that matter, neither can the top 1% of wage earners. Yet, until everyone is paying at least a small portion of their income in taxes (as long as we continue to have an income tax system), then it is inherently greedy and wrong for those on the low end to solely demand that the "rich" pay more. And once that non-paying portion of society goes over 50%, we will have true class warfare in this nation that will utterly destroy our economic system.
Night Strike wrote:
Umm, no, I don't consider the top 51% to be rich. I'm saying the top 51% are paying ALL of the taxes, so the other 49% need to stop trying to tax everybody else. How can a country survive when only half (and soon to be less than half) of its citizens are paying taxes? It can't. Once the bottom 49% are paying a minimum of 1% of their income in federal income taxes, then we can start discussing taxes on the "rich".
The bottom 49% are never going to pay enough to really matter, though I would agree they, too should pay more.
I never claimed they would be able to pay enough to make a major difference in the deficit. For that matter, neither can the top 1% of wage earners. Yet, until everyone is paying at least a small portion of their income in taxes (as long as we continue to have an income tax system), then it is inherently greedy and wrong for those on the low end to solely demand that the "rich" pay more. And once that non-paying portion of society goes over 50%, we will have true class warfare in this nation that will utterly destroy our economic system.
Actually, the top 1% can make a difference. More to the point, they have benefitted most from the largess of the past, from the economic boons... and it is time they held to that promise of "trickling wealth down" so popular in Republican rhetoric of the past.
Cutting education and healthcare, by contrast will literally kill our nation's future. So will allowing pollution to continue.. except that will end more than just our country.
Night Strike wrote:
Umm, no, I don't consider the top 51% to be rich. I'm saying the top 51% are paying ALL of the taxes, so the other 49% need to stop trying to tax everybody else. How can a country survive when only half (and soon to be less than half) of its citizens are paying taxes? It can't. Once the bottom 49% are paying a minimum of 1% of their income in federal income taxes, then we can start discussing taxes on the "rich".
The bottom 49% are never going to pay enough to really matter, though I would agree they, too should pay more.
I never claimed they would be able to pay enough to make a major difference in the deficit. For that matter, neither can the top 1% of wage earners. Yet, until everyone is paying at least a small portion of their income in taxes (as long as we continue to have an income tax system), then it is inherently greedy and wrong for those on the low end to solely demand that the "rich" pay more. And once that non-paying portion of society goes over 50%, we will have true class warfare in this nation that will utterly destroy our economic system.
Actually, the top 1% can make a difference. More to the point, they have benefitted most from the largess of the past, from the economic boons... and it is time they held to that promise of "trickling wealth down" so popular in Republican rhetoric of the past.
They can make a difference by spending money and hiring people to work for them, not by paying 100% of their income in taxes. I believe the numbers are that if you taxed every single dollar earned over 1 million dollars at a 100% rate, you still couldn't even pay off the current fiscal year's deficit, much less any of the other $14.5 trillion we have of debt. Sorry, but it's impossible to tax our way to prosperity.
