Multicultarism , is there a down side for Europe or others?

[PLAYER57832]

OK, there seem to be several threads on this Norawy bit and most have been driven off into netherlands.

Even so, as much as I think we ALL disdain the actions of that guy (I won't give him the credit of a name), the truth is also that there is a growing unease in all of Scandinavia, most of Europe about the influx of "new people" or "outsiders".

It is a complex question. while I know this topic is very sensitive, if we cannot tackle the sensitive issues, then they just don't get solved.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that I think the issue of multicultarism in the US differs somewhat from that of Europe. Here, we all but eradicated the native population (did eradicate many tribes). Those remnants have now become part of the mix that is the US. I don't say that to dismiss their very real claims and issues, but just to distinguish the issues here. The debate in the US is different than that in Europe. We have 300 (roughly) years of history, much less in some places a bit more in others. They have millenia.

While no culture is ever static, European countries have long-established cultures. For the most part, they are tolerant of differences.. sometimes more than here in the US, but many are reaching a point where they are more or less saying "sure, we will welcome a few refugees, a few visitors, etc... but we want to keep our own country".

As much as I value multiculturalism, believe that one of our great strengths is the fact that we have such diversity here within the US, in Europe, I find myself somewhat conflicted. Its one thing when a French speaking town here in the US turns into a Spanish-speaking one (to speak hypothetically), but something else when a town in France sees its majority population or even a very significant portion of the population to be from other countries.

I know this has come up before, but I guess the question is what is the solution? Certainly not acts of violance. However, do people have a right to "cultural sanctuary"? If so, how would it be defined and enforced? Or, is it just a case of "the world changes and we must all change with it".

overall, I probably agree more with the latter than the former, but I am interested in what other people, particularly those in Europe who are maybe dealing with these issues themselves might think.

EDIT, since a lot of folks are talking US and Australia, Canada.. I added "others" to the title, in the name of better thread titles

[Qwert]

well if people from europe be honest, they all want to be clean from other insiders. Why i think like these?
Its quite simple -Serbia have highest number of refugese who are expelled from Croatia and Kosovo, and EUropean Union dont have nothing against that,and these show that etnic clean countries are accepted.
Far Before SFR Yugoslavia whas most miltietnic Countrie in Europe, where all Nations have equal right, and these someone dont like, and these countrie are destroyed,creating etnic clean new countries.

[muy_thaiguy]

Yeah, the US already has place like China Town that is inhabited almost solely by the various ethnic groups. We have cultures that live side by side in relative peace (minus the odd supremicist anyways). So there can be a balance.

[Phatscotty]

Not like this is news.

Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed," Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday, adding fuel to a debate over immigration and Islam polarizing her conservative camp. Merkel faces pressure from within her CDU to take a tougher line on immigrants who don't show a willingness to adapt to German society and her comments appeared intended to pacify her critics.

She said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her usual line that they should learn German in order to get by in school and have opportunities on the labor market.

The debate over foreigners in Germany has shifted since former central banker Thilo Sarrazin published a book accusing Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society.

Sarrazin was censured for his views and dismissed from the Bundesbank, but his book proved highly popular and polls showed a majority of Germans agreed with the thrust of his arguments.

Merkel has tried to accommodate both sides of the debate, talking tough on integration but also telling Germans that they must accept that mosques have become part of their landscape.

She said on Saturday that the education of unemployed Germans should take priority over recruiting workers from abroad

[radiojake]

Europe wants to have its cake and it eat it too - 500 years of colonialism where they were able to usurp as much foreign land that they were able to conquer and reap the economic benefits. Now they are complaining when this 'new world' comes to live in Europe.

None of the lands that were taken over by Europeans were able to have a cry and say that 'multiculturalism has failed' - that weren't even allowed that luxury.

[Phatscotty]

Losers lose. The ability to live peacefully in the countries that expanded land 500 years ago is what the luxury is.

[patches70]

Immigration only works if the immigrates assimilate into the society of the country they are moving into. Certainly they can keep their traditions, but they must find a niche within their new country. Such as, learning that country's language for one.

Such a simple thing isn't it? If you're going to move into a country and call it home wouldn't it be a good idea to at least learn the language? That's just an example.

When people's move into other countries but refuse to adopt or assimilate into the society of that country, there are going to be serious tensions.

Then you start getting into ethno-nationalism. That begins to cause major strife after a while.

The business in Georgia back in 2008, between the Georgians and the Ossetia. The Ossetians identify more with the Russians than identifying with the nation of Georgia.
It degenerates into a tribal warfare where the various factions are divided up according to ethnic lines.

Human beings are hardwired to congregate among people they have things in common with. Be it national identity, religion or traditions. These things bond a people together.
Those various groups can work together and not assimilate or adopt another's culture or traditions. But when all put into a single entity known as a "country" where the law of the land must be decided, then you begin to have friction as each ethnic group wants their particular group to hold dominance.

The breakup of Soviet Russia, all those new countries formed, often along the lines of the ethnicity of the people in each area.

When, say, Iranians emigrate to Germany but identify more with Iran than Germany, when things start getting tough the lines of division among the people increase, sometimes leading to violence.

It's the best way to conquer another country. Move a bunch of your people into it and have them out breed the indigenous people until eventually your people are able to seize control without ever having to fire a shot. It's happened over and over through out history.

Europe will become Islamist. It's just a matter of time. Another generation or two and most of Europe will fall to Islamic fundamentalists. The numbers don't lie. The European birth rates are already too low to maintain your national identities. Meanwhile Europe relies on immigration because they aren't having enough babies. That immigration comes from the Crescent Valley and those people's don't take on European traditions but remain tied to their home country. And they are breeding like rabbits.

It's just a matter of time.

If one doesn't mind living under Islamic rule then it's all good. However, if you aren't really for that...well.....
What can one do?

[PLAYER57832]

Europe wants to have its cake and it eat it too - 500 years of colonialism where they were able to usurp as much foreign land that they were able to conquer and reap the economic benefits. Now they are complaining when this 'new world' comes to live in Europe.

None of the lands that were taken over by Europeans were able to have a cry and say that 'multiculturalism has failed' - that weren't even allowed that luxury.

This is a good point.

[Symmetry]

Europe wants to have its cake and it eat it too - 500 years of colonialism where they were able to usurp as much foreign land that they were able to conquer and reap the economic benefits. Now they are complaining when this 'new world' comes to live in Europe.

None of the lands that were taken over by Europeans were able to have a cry and say that 'multiculturalism has failed' - that weren't even allowed that luxury.

Apologies, because this is maybe going to sound a bit insulting and I don't know much about you, but that is kind of an interesting line of argument coming from an Australian (or at least with an Australian flag in their profile). I actually agree with most of it, btw- I find it pretty Ironic when the UK complains about immigrants from India and Pakistan, or France complains about Algerians.

[EDIT] That last sentence would be better phrased with "British people complain about..." and "French people complain about..."

[Phatscotty]

What are the pro's for multiculturalism?

[muy_thaiguy]

What are the pro's for multiculturalism?

New and tasty foods, intresting stories, neat traditions, many things.

[PLAYER57832]

What are the pro's for multiculturalism?

Different perspectives on life.

[Symmetry]

What would be the opposite of multiculturalism? I'm reasonably familiar with the salad-bowl vs melting pot ideas from the American side, but I wonder which societies really fit. I've lived in Japan, which is fairly mono-cultural, but has its own set of problems stemming from that. North Korea seems massively homogenous as the opposite of a multicultural society, but it's not a good example of anything.

I'm not sure why so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture. Nations in the past that do that tend to produce kitsch.

[PLAYER57832]

You would obviously know more about Japan than I, but I would say they probably come closest of any modern nation.

[keiths31]

What are the pro's for multiculturalism?

Canada is a multicultural country. Though we have some issues, it has worked pretty well.

[Phatscotty]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

[saxitoxin]

Europe wants to have its cake and it eat it too - 500 years of colonialism where they were able to usurp as much foreign land that they were able to conquer and reap the economic benefits. Now they are complaining when this 'new world' comes to live in Europe.

None of the lands that were taken over by Europeans were able to have a cry and say that 'multiculturalism has failed' - that weren't even allowed that luxury.

Excellent point. In many parts of Europe in 2011 schools are still segregated, which is horrifying. In France there is a political party (Le Pen's National Front) that's the equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan and is essentially running in 3rd to 2nd place in polling for the 2012 elections and stands a decent chance of being elected to power on a platform of mass expulsions of minorities.

If Europe doesn't get its house in order soon there is a good case for deploying UN troops in the most troubled areas like Birmingham and Manchester.

[muy_thaiguy]

So this French party is running around and burning crosses in people's yards, beating people, lynching them, blackmailing them, and otherwise terrorizing them?

[Symmetry]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

For example, establishing a single national language, abolishing the teaching of Hispanic cultural studies classes, state support for a certain religious position on, say, contraception and sex education. General opposition to other cultures. You know the drill.

[saxitoxin]

So this French party is running around and burning crosses in people's yards, beating people, lynching them, blackmailing them, and otherwise terrorizing them?

equivalent in ideology

though in action they're pretty close, which is pretty scary when you consider the KKK has 500 or so members and the National Front has hundreds of thousands; just the other week their uniformed paramilitary wing attacked a journalist who was critical of them - http://www.france24.com/en/20110116-fra ... ael-szames

[muy_thaiguy]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

For example, establishing a single national language, abolishing the teaching of Hispanic cultural studies classes, state support for a certain religious position on, say, contraception and sex education. General opposition to other cultures. You know the drill.

Other than the contraception and and sex education (even though I learned about those in public school in one of the most conservative states in the Union), none of those things have actually happened. The US, while English/American is certainly predominant, is not the official language. Students in most high schools are allowed to choose what classes they wish to attend, and since quite a few take Spanish, they learn it the culture in those language classes as they go hand in hand. And really, all of these are pretty much misconceptions, not facts.

[saxitoxin]

Police chief Dave McLuckie has called for Roma to be thrown out of European football. Mr McLuckie said: "Roma should be banned from these competitions. They should not be allowed to enter from the start because the authorities are not able to look after the people who come to their city to watch football. They should just be banned from European football."

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/7 ... z1T4qCKLcI

Just imagine if, in a more developed country like Canada or Australia - a police chief said, "Blacks should be banned from sporting events. They tend to cause trouble. Blacks should not be allowed in stadiums."

[muy_thaiguy]

Police chief Dave McLuckie has called for Roma to be thrown out of European football. Mr McLuckie said: "Roma should be banned from these competitions. They should not be allowed to enter from the start because the authorities are not able to look after the people who come to their city to watch football. They should just be banned from European football."

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/7 ... z1T4qCKLcI

Just imagine if, in a more developed country like Canada or Australia - a police chief said, "Blacks should be banned from sporting events. They tend to cause trouble. Blacks should not be allowed in stadiums."

Yeah, that shit wouldn't fly in the US, even in the South it wouldn't.

[Symmetry]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

For example, establishing a single national language, abolishing the teaching of Hispanic cultural studies classes, state support for a certain religious position on, say, contraception and sex education. General opposition to other cultures. You know the drill.

Other than the contraception and and sex education (even though I learned about those in public school in one of the most conservative states in the Union), none of those things have actually happened. The US, while English/American is certainly predominant, is not the official language. Students in most high schools are allowed to choose what classes they wish to attend, and since quite a few take Spanish, they learn it the culture in those language classes as they go hand in hand. And really, all of these are pretty much misconceptions, not facts.

Sure- but they are generally positions held by many conservatives, right? Not all, for certain, and I also went to school in the US, but on social issues conservatives at least lean more towards the state imposing these kind of measures, or at the very least, removing state support for other cultural positions.

[radiojake]

Europe wants to have its cake and it eat it too - 500 years of colonialism where they were able to usurp as much foreign land that they were able to conquer and reap the economic benefits. Now they are complaining when this 'new world' comes to live in Europe.

None of the lands that were taken over by Europeans were able to have a cry and say that 'multiculturalism has failed' - that weren't even allowed that luxury.

Apologies, because this is maybe going to sound a bit insulting and I don't know much about you, but that is kind of an interesting line of argument coming from an Australian (or at least with an Australian flag in their profile). I actually agree with most of it, btw- I find it pretty Ironic when the UK complains about immigrants from India and Pakistan, or France complains about Algerians.

[EDIT] That last sentence would be better phrased with "British people complain about..." and "French people complain about..."

I am fully aware of my European heritage - I live in a country where only 250 years there was no white man to be seen, yet it was only in the 1970s that Australia officially ended its 'White Australia Policy' (Immigrants had to be white to move here) - I have seen the irony of white-bred Australians froth at the mouth with the mentions of 'boat people' and that they should go back to where they came from, which totally ignores the fact that this country was settled by White Boat People (The First Fleet - they were boats - Uninvited ones at that).

I know the case in Europe is a little different because there the indigenous population is white, but I still think my first point stands. Meanwhile, the former colonies who are crying foul at Multculturalism are hypocrites of the highest order.

There is nothing quite like being able to write history - For the very most part, white histories prevail in this world.