Multicultarism , is there a down side for Europe or others?

[muy_thaiguy]

It depends on the "conservatives." In Wyoming, a highly conservative state, so long as what you do doesn't harm anyone else, there won't be any problems. It's a very live and let live place. And overall, most people in the US, other than the bigots for the most part, do not have any problems with multiculturalism.
And I think you're misunderstanding a little bit on the social issues in general. Conservatives (real ones) simply want people to be able to be more self-reliant than having to rely on the government for most things (Medi-Care and Medi-Caid are usaully accepted, same with Social Security).

[Obrens]

Just recently, Hungarian court has released a Hungarian Nazi . My brother went to Hungary for that trial, and everyone was shocked by it. Of course, it caused some protest here in Novi Sad, Serbia, because he took part in a masacre here in Novi Sad in WWII. Manyy non-Hungarians have been thrown naked into the frozen Danube under the ice or the sole reason of not being Hungarian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndo ... %ADr%C3%B3

So this French party is running around and burning crosses in people's yards, beating people, lynching them, blackmailing them, and otherwise terrorizing them?

As I hear, one of the strongest parties in Hungary is openly fascist and they have their paramilitary and do stuff like that.

Well this is just an example of one such European country. It's a logical consequence of the economical crisis.

[Symmetry]

Europe wants to have its cake and it eat it too - 500 years of colonialism where they were able to usurp as much foreign land that they were able to conquer and reap the economic benefits. Now they are complaining when this 'new world' comes to live in Europe.

None of the lands that were taken over by Europeans were able to have a cry and say that 'multiculturalism has failed' - that weren't even allowed that luxury.

Apologies, because this is maybe going to sound a bit insulting and I don't know much about you, but that is kind of an interesting line of argument coming from an Australian (or at least with an Australian flag in their profile). I actually agree with most of it, btw- I find it pretty Ironic when the UK complains about immigrants from India and Pakistan, or France complains about Algerians.

[EDIT] That last sentence would be better phrased with "British people complain about..." and "French people complain about..."

I am fully aware of my European heritage - I live in a country where only 250 years there was no white man to be seen, yet it was only in the 1970s that Australia officially ended its 'White Australia Policy' (Immigrants had to be white to move here) - I have seen the irony of white-bred Australians froth at the mouth with the mentions of 'boat people' and that they should go back to where they came from, which totally ignores the fact that this country was settled by White Boat People (The First Fleet - they were boats - Uninvited ones at that).

I know the case in Europe is a little different because there the indigenous population is white, but I still think my first point stands. Meanwhile, the former colonies who are crying foul at Multculturalism are hypocrites of the highest order.

There is nothing quite like being able to write history - For the very most part, white histories prevail in this world.

I was thinking more about the way that the Australian government treats Indigenous Australians. I haven't heard anything good, and apologies for being anecdotal, but I've worked with a lot of Australians who casually threw in the word "Abo" in the middle of a conversation. Well, ok, it happened twice, and kind of got some funny looks from non-Australians. I'm not an expert on the subject at all, but I've heard that Australia is the only developed country in the world that still hasn't eradicated trachoma.

[saxitoxin]

Just recently, Hungarian court has released a Hungarian Nazi . My brother went to Hungary for that trial, and everyone was shocked by it. Of course, it caused some protest here in Novi Sad, Serbia, because he took part in a masacre here in Novi Sad in WWII. Manyy non-Hungarians have been thrown naked into the frozen Danube under the ice or the sole reason of not being Hungarian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndo ... %ADr%C3%B3

So this French party is running around and burning crosses in people's yards, beating people, lynching them, blackmailing them, and otherwise terrorizing them?

As I hear, one of the strongest parties in Hungary is openly fascist and they have their paramilitary and do stuff like that.

Well this is just an example of one such European country. It's a logical consequence of the economical crisis.

Good points, Obrens. Europe's institutional racism has always been focused against Slavs and Roma, as I've observed. Muslims are a relatively recent addition. The Serbian Radical Party is right to oppose EU membership for Serbia. It would mean only trouble affiliating with a people driven by hate.

What is the name of the Hungarian group, The Iron Guard or The Steel Guard or something like that, I think? Hang on, I'm going to look it up -

Civic Guard (per wikipedia)

[Symmetry]

Just recently, Hungarian court has released a Hungarian Nazi . My brother went to Hungary for that trial, and everyone was shocked by it. Of course, it caused some protest here in Novi Sad, Serbia, because he took part in a masacre here in Novi Sad in WWII. Manyy non-Hungarians have been thrown naked into the frozen Danube under the ice or the sole reason of not being Hungarian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndo ... %ADr%C3%B3

So this French party is running around and burning crosses in people's yards, beating people, lynching them, blackmailing them, and otherwise terrorizing them?

As I hear, one of the strongest parties in Hungary is openly fascist and they have their paramilitary and do stuff like that.

Well this is just an example of one such European country. It's a logical consequence of the economical crisis.

Good points, Obrens. Europe's institutional racism has always been focused against Slavs and Roma, as I've observed. Muslims are a relatively recent addition. The Serbian Radical Party is right to oppose EU membership for Serbia. It would mean only trouble affiliating with a people driven by hate.

What is the name of the Hungarian group, The Iron Guard or The Steel Guard or something like that, I think? Hang on, I'm going to look it up -

Civic Guard (per wikipedia)

[img]http://kecel.jobbik.hu/sites/kecel.jobb ... resize.jpg[/img

Saxi, which countries would you say are not multicultural? Or at least, are opposed to multiculturalism?

[Phatscotty]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

For example, establishing a single national language, abolishing the teaching of Hispanic cultural studies classes, state support for a certain religious position on, say, contraception and sex education. General opposition to other cultures. You know the drill.

you have a problem with the demand that immigrants assimilate to the country they moved to?

Immigrants have to accept the culture of the country they move into, the country does not have to assimilate to the immigrant. Afterall, there is nothing saying a country must accept immigrants.

They shouldn't get too pushy in their host countries, or they might find they are not welcome any longer.

If they do not respect their host's culture, then what is the reason the host should respect theirs?

I accept though that someone who wants their culture conserved is a "cultural conservative"

[Symmetry]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

For example, establishing a single national language, abolishing the teaching of Hispanic cultural studies classes, state support for a certain religious position on, say, contraception and sex education. General opposition to other cultures. You know the drill.

you have a problem with the demand that immigrants assimilate to the country they moved to?

Immigrants have to accept the culture of the country they move into, the country does not have to assimilate to the immigrant. Afterall, there is nothing saying a country must accept immigrants.

They shouldn't get too pushy in their host countries, or they might find they are not welcome any longer.

Who should decide what the culture that they should assimilate into is? Was it not multi-cultural before they arrived? Do they have to pick one of the other cultures that are established to fit in to?

I have a deep amount of expertise on US immigration procedure, but are you really arguing that an immigrant from, say, Somalia, cross the Mexican border to Ellis Island and change their culture to Cajun just to fit in?

[saxitoxin]

CNN has a pretty good story right now on the European tradition of hatemongering and xenophobia and how it's not just a handful of lone nuts, but a great percentage of the European population that supports it:

Far-right political parties in Scandinavia have tapped into this anger -- and reaped dividends at the ballot box. The far-right Danish People's Party (Dansk Folkerpartis) has 25 seats in parliament; the Sweden Democrats Party won 5.7% of the vote in the 2010 election. In Finland, the True Finns party made a dramatic breakthrough in April's elections, gaining more than 1 in 5 votes.

Beyond Scandinavia, France's National Front won 15% of votes in the first round of regional elections in March 2010, even though it was not on the ballot in the entire country. President Nicolas Sarkozy's party only managed 2% better.

In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders (a politician admired by Breivik in his writings) has successfully stirred up hatred against Islam and the establishment; his Party for Freedom has become the country's third largest, with 24 seats in the Dutch parliament. Wilders has compared the Quran to Hitler's Mein Kampf and has tried to have it banned in the Netherlands.

And in 2009, the British National Party won enough votes to send two members to the European Parliament.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europ ... far.right/

[Symmetry]

CNN has a pretty good story right now on the European tradition of hatemongering and xenophobia and how it's not just a handful of lone nuts, but a great percentage of the European population that supports it:

Far-right political parties in Scandinavia have tapped into this anger -- and reaped dividends at the ballot box. The far-right Danish People's Party (Dansk Folkerpartis) has 25 seats in parliament; the Sweden Democrats Party won 5.7% of the vote in the 2010 election. In Finland, the True Finns party made a dramatic breakthrough in April's elections, gaining more than 1 in 5 votes.

Beyond Scandinavia, France's National Front won 15% of votes in the first round of regional elections in March 2010, even though it was not on the ballot in the entire country. President Nicolas Sarkozy's party only managed 2% better.

In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders (a politician admired by Breivik in his writings) has successfully stirred up hatred against Islam and the establishment; his Party for Freedom has become the country's third largest, with 24 seats in the Dutch parliament. Wilders has compared the Quran to Hitler's Mein Kampf and has tried to have it banned in the Netherlands.

And in 2009, the British National Party won enough votes to send two members to the European Parliament.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europ ... far.right/

You needed a CNN article to tell you that Europe has a history of hatemongering and xenophobia? I can throw in rape, murder, genocide, fascism, loitering, communism, allegations of vampirism and witchcraft, burning people for witchcraft (some minor punishmenst of corpses for vampirism), heresy, credit-card fraud, incest, racism, reverse-racism, sodomy, colonialism, anti-colonialism, socialism...

[saxitoxin]

Hard to say if this is racially motivated but it seems likely. Has the Norway shooting unleashed a wave of anti-minority violence across the continent? This reminds me of Kristallnacht.

London, Jul 23 (PTI) A 41-year-old man with roots in Nepal was bludgeoned to death with a brick just yards from his home in Croydon on the outskirts of London, police said today.

Umesh Chaudhary was attacked last Thursday as he walked to work at Tesco in Croydon. His family had just come to Britain from Nepal after nine years apart.

His wife Rekha, 38, heard his cries during the attack, which police said was unprovoked.

http://news.in.msn.com/international/ar ... id=5291575

[Symmetry]

...bigotry, Papism, anti-Catholicism, shop-lifting, religious intolerance, jay-walking, anti-semitism, Islamophobia, Anti-Americanism, virulent anti-anti-Americanism, hypocrisy, sarcasm, sporadic impalings and dismemberments, torture, genital mutilation, assassination, espionage...

[Symmetry]

...and lèse majesté.

[Nobunaga]

... E pluribus unum, "Of many, one".

... Multiculturalism supports the idea of many, while ignoring the idea of one.

...

[Symmetry]

... E pluribus unum, "Of many, one".

... Multiculturalism supports the idea of many, while ignoring the idea of one.

...

So roughly, you're saying that multicultural societies start counting from two?

[Phatscotty]

so many conservatives advocate the state control of culture

huh?

For example, establishing a single national language, abolishing the teaching of Hispanic cultural studies classes, state support for a certain religious position on, say, contraception and sex education. General opposition to other cultures. You know the drill.

you have a problem with the demand that immigrants assimilate to the country they moved to?

Immigrants have to accept the culture of the country they move into, the country does not have to assimilate to the immigrant. Afterall, there is nothing saying a country must accept immigrants.

They shouldn't get too pushy in their host countries, or they might find they are not welcome any longer.

Who should decide what the culture that they should assimilate into is? Was it not multi-cultural before they arrived? Do they have to pick one of the other cultures that are established to fit in to?

I have a deep amount of expertise on US immigration procedure, but are you really arguing that an immigrant from, say, Somalia, cross the Mexican border to Ellis Island and change their culture to Cajun just to fit in?

I would opine that the people who were born in the land the immigrant moves to have already decided what the culture is. as well as the immigrant already has an idea of what the country is about, otherwise they might have chosen another country. I base that on, more than anything, the immigrant obviously does not have a say what the country he emigrates to's culture is. The culture is what it is at the time the immigrants move there. Of course, the immigrant can and does keep their own culture with their family and in their home if they so choose to. It's like the same reason you don't fly a Mexican flag on top of an American flag (In America). You do, your'e gonna have trouble.

Immigrants do not have to pick a culture to fit into, but they should, as you mentioned, learn the language of the land. It's only respectful. They should not demand the land print separate menus in their language. That is disresepctful. They should take advantage of the schools teaching their children the culture of the land they live in. The parents should not demand the school teach other people's and land's culture. If a school want to, fine. The students and parents and faculty can and do have that meeting where a decision is made.

A Somali does not have to turn Cajun. Lulz. But the somali should try to learn the language and accept the education system of the land he chose to emigrate to.

This should all be obvious, even if just from a point of view of respect. I understand in many other countries, even in Europe, if you are not resepctful of their culture and their ways, they will kick you right the F out no questions asked.

In summary, when you are a guest, don't be a doosh-bag in the host's home. Be thankful that you were invited and accepted as you are. If an immigrant can't do that, then they should decline the invitation/acceptance.

[Symmetry]

I would opine that the people who were born in the land the immigrant moves to have already decided what the culture is. as well as the immigrant already has an idea of what the country is about, otherwise they might have chosen another country. I base that on, more than anything, the immigrant obviously does not have a say what the country he emigrates to's culture is. The culture is what it is at the time the immigrants move there. Of course, the immigrant can and does keep their own culture with their family and in their home if they so choose to. It's like the same reason you don't fly a Mexican flag on top of an American flag (In America). You do, your'e gonna have trouble.

Immigrants do not have to pick a culture to fit into, but they should, as you mentioned, learn the language of the land. It's only respectful. They should not demand the land print separate menus in their language. That is disresepctful. They should take advantage of the schools teaching their children the culture of the land they live in. The parents should not demand the school teach other people's and land's culture. If a school want to, fine. The students and parents and faculty can and do have that meeting where a decision is made.

A Somali does not have to turn Cajun. Lulz. But the somali should try to learn the language and accept the education system of the land he chose to emigrate to.

This should all be obvious, even if just from a point of view of respect. I understand in many other countries, even in Europe, if you are not resepctful of their culture and their ways, they will kick you right the F out no questions asked.

In summary, when you are a guest, don't be a doosh-bag in the host's home. Be thankful that you were invited and accepted as you are. If an immigrant can't do that, then they should decline the invitation/acceptance.

What if the country in question doesn't have a single language or culture? Do you think the state should impose and establish one of the cultures' languages as being the official state sanctioned one to learn? Or one of the cultures?

[saxitoxin]

More horrifying news from the land of hate:

Right-wing extremists dominate Czech Senate

A typical ultra-right speech was then given by Pavel Vaníček of HERPNO. He repeated the extremists' usual lie, that the state privileges Romani people by not investigating and prosecuting crimes they commit, and condemned the state for supporting Romani people through social welfare, which he would immediately abolish. He also painted non-governmental organizations focusing on human rights and the life of the Romani people in the usual colors, labeling them pseudo-humanists to whom the state should not give a single crown because they are just making the whole situation worse and the money the state gives them disappears without anyone knowing where it's gone.

http://www.romea.cz/english/index.php?i ... =2007_2601

[Phatscotty]

I would opine that the people who were born in the land the immigrant moves to have already decided what the culture is. as well as the immigrant already has an idea of what the country is about, otherwise they might have chosen another country. I base that on, more than anything, the immigrant obviously does not have a say what the country he emigrates to's culture is. The culture is what it is at the time the immigrants move there. Of course, the immigrant can and does keep their own culture with their family and in their home if they so choose to. It's like the same reason you don't fly a Mexican flag on top of an American flag (In America). You do, your'e gonna have trouble.

Immigrants do not have to pick a culture to fit into, but they should, as you mentioned, learn the language of the land. It's only respectful. They should not demand the land print separate menus in their language. That is disresepctful. They should take advantage of the schools teaching their children the culture of the land they live in. The parents should not demand the school teach other people's and land's culture. If a school want to, fine. The students and parents and faculty can and do have that meeting where a decision is made.

A Somali does not have to turn Cajun. Lulz. But the somali should try to learn the language and accept the education system of the land he chose to emigrate to.

This should all be obvious, even if just from a point of view of respect. I understand in many other countries, even in Europe, if you are not resepctful of their culture and their ways, they will kick you right the F out no questions asked.

In summary, when you are a guest, don't be a doosh-bag in the host's home. Be thankful that you were invited and accepted as you are. If an immigrant can't do that, then they should decline the invitation/acceptance.

What if the country in question doesn't have a single language or culture? Do you think the state should impose and establish one of the cultures' languages as being the official state sanctioned one to learn? Or one of the cultures?

What is the language of their founding documents and laws? Language on the country and state flags? What is the language of all the street signs? What language is used on their Television? Major newspapers?

I think it is what it is.

Some other guy I used to work with started in one day about how America does not have a culture. We just happened to be walking down a certain street and I pointed to a Gadsden on a flagpole and said "That's American Culture right there"

He did not know what it was. I summed it up to his ignorance of American Culture which no doubt led him to a most certain conclusion that my country does not have one.


If you want me to just skip right to the next talking point of yours, yes, Hispanic culture has a place in the culture of America, and so do Native Americans and others.

But, sorry, let's not make this about America. It's about Europe.

[Symmetry]

I would opine that the people who were born in the land the immigrant moves to have already decided what the culture is. as well as the immigrant already has an idea of what the country is about, otherwise they might have chosen another country. I base that on, more than anything, the immigrant obviously does not have a say what the country he emigrates to's culture is. The culture is what it is at the time the immigrants move there. Of course, the immigrant can and does keep their own culture with their family and in their home if they so choose to. It's like the same reason you don't fly a Mexican flag on top of an American flag (In America). You do, your'e gonna have trouble.

Immigrants do not have to pick a culture to fit into, but they should, as you mentioned, learn the language of the land. It's only respectful. They should not demand the land print separate menus in their language. That is disresepctful. They should take advantage of the schools teaching their children the culture of the land they live in. The parents should not demand the school teach other people's and land's culture. If a school want to, fine. The students and parents and faculty can and do have that meeting where a decision is made.

A Somali does not have to turn Cajun. Lulz. But the somali should try to learn the language and accept the education system of the land he chose to emigrate to.

This should all be obvious, even if just from a point of view of respect. I understand in many other countries, even in Europe, if you are not resepctful of their culture and their ways, they will kick you right the F out no questions asked.

In summary, when you are a guest, don't be a doosh-bag in the host's home. Be thankful that you were invited and accepted as you are. If an immigrant can't do that, then they should decline the invitation/acceptance.

What if the country in question doesn't have a single language or culture? Do you think the state should impose and establish one of the cultures' languages as being the official state sanctioned one to learn? Or one of the cultures?

What is the language of their founding documents and laws? Language on the country and state flags? What is the language of all the street signs? What language is used on their Television? Major newspapers?

I think it is what it is.

Some other guy I used to work with started in one day about how America does not have a culture. We just happened to be walking down a certain street and I pointed to a Gadsden on a flagpole and said "That's American Culture right there"

He did not know what it was. I summed it up to his ignorance of American Culture which no doubt led him to a most certain conclusion that my country does not have one.


If you want me to just skip right to the next talking point of yours, yes, Hispanic culture has a place in the culture of America, and so do Native Americans and others.

But, sorry, let's not make this about America. It's about Europe.

Europe has quite a few languages and cultures. You may even have heard of some of them.

[Phatscotty]

Okay you were kind of bringing me down an America path. But Europe, what are some good examples of countries that fit what you are talking about?

[Symmetry]

Okay you were kind of bringing me down an America path. But Europe, what are some good examples of countries that fit what you are talking about?

No country that I know of has a Mexican border with Ellis Island.

On a more serious note, which countries (and I open this globally) do you see as not multicultural? Where can I find examples? What can I draw data from?

If somebody says that they oppose multiculturalism, or that some other system is better, where are they referring to? Which system? In what country?

It's very easy to oppose multiculturalism when there's no clear alternative, indeed, when it's everywhere. It boils down to "I don't like what's going on, something should be done!" No?

[muy_thaiguy]

I think there are only a handful of countries that could be considered "monocultural" so to speak. Japan, North Korea, and maybe Mongolia. Japan is pretty close, Mongolia only has 1 city in the entire country where half the people live, and the other half are nomads. And North Korea is pretty closed off from the outside world.

[saxitoxin]

Okay you were kind of bringing me down an America path. But Europe, what are some good examples of countries that fit what you are talking about?

No country that I know of has a Mexican border with Ellis Island.

On a more serious note, which countries (and I open this globally) do you see as not multicultural?

Britain, perhaps, could be defined as bi-cultural, correct? You have (1) chav culture and (2) royal culture.

Anyone else agree with me that Britons are bi?

[Symmetry]

I think there are only a handful of countries that could be considered "monocultural" so to speak. Japan, North Korea, and maybe Mongolia. Japan is pretty close, Mongolia only has 1 city in the entire country where half the people live, and the other half are nomads. And North Korea is pretty closed off from the outside world.

I guess I can speak a bit about Japan, but are North Korea and Mongolia really the societies we want to emulate?

[Phatscotty]

I wonder if the context of some countries wanting to bring in other cultures solely for the purpose of diversity goals.

I also have always thought that diversity was the social tool of the Globalist movement and multi-national corporations.

I wonder what player has to say about this.