Multicultarism , is there a down side for Europe or others?

[PLAYER57832]

greekdog.. not going to copy the post, but you made some excellent points.

One seems similar to what I have said, specifically that there is a difference between saying "we will allow you to do as you want" and allowing other people to essentially force how you do things. Initially, I made a big distinction between the US and Europe and certainly, there is a difference. However, those who said we have no "base culture" are also incorrect. Even though we try to avoid stereotypes in individual interactions, the truth is that you often tell if someone is born and raised in the US, in Canada or Europe.. and I don't mean just the accents. California and Texas are experiencing something similar to what I hear is happening in Europe (mostly from my relatives in Scandinavia). On the one hand, most people don't really want to say "OUT" -- at least not initially. However, part of what makes people so angry about Mexicans is that they come here and then basically DO turn around and say "you learn MY language.. why should I bother learning yours". (there are plenty of exceptions, but having grown up there, there is a lot of truth to this stereotype) When you add in the numbers and things like dropping job opportunities, problems in schools, etc, etc. -- even the most open minded and liberal person (I use to consider myself in that group, but in this issue, perhaps not) is likely to say "STOP". You don't have the right to change our society overnight! And.. sometimes it seems that is what is happening.

Like you, greekdog, I am the child of an immigrant (though only 1). I grew up attending organizations dedicated to my father's culture, etc. Yet.. even while people wanted to hold onto parts of the culture, they in no way wanted to denigrate the culture of those already here.

The Native Americans are, sadly different. However, even for them I am not sure there is much choice except to find ways to at least partially meld. I DO think we owe them a real obligation to help sustain their culture. We have gained from that association, but have not "returned the favor". We cannot and really should not undo the past, but we can say "OK, because we screwed up so badly our society owes these others something." That topic has come up before and deserves its own discussion, but I wanted to clarify that it is a seperate issue, apart from the more general issues.

Your last point is really key. When I was in school, I can remember hearing about the "American Dream" and the "melting pot". They were all sort of merged as something positive. Yet, the truth is that people came here for many reasons. Some did come to escape persecution and so became even more tied, perhaps to their "base culture".. though in the past, we have heard gratitude in that mix, perhaps because numbers were always limited. Its not that they necessarily want their kids to forget their "home" culture, but they recognize that their children have a new home and simply must adapt.

Far more came purely for economic reasons. A lot of the newer immigrants that are causing issues came here for the "opportunities". They are more mixed. I don't think its cooincidence that the same group that shows the greatest disdain for our system, namely Mexican Americans, are the ones who often came here illegally. (note, I am WELL aware that there are many exceptions to this, but I want to concentrate on those causing the problems). I don't believe, as others have asserted, that they present a real crime problem, other than the new drug-associated issues. However, being illegal, they had no real incentive to "meld". Most fully and completely intended to return. They may have wound up staying, but evne then, it is an uneasy stay. This is a tad ironic, because the answer is to allow legal immigration, but also to limit it. Again, that is yet another tangent. I mention it just to be clear, but its another topic. Anyway, it might not be that the illegal aspect particularly is the main issue there. I might just be sheer numbers. Far more people from Mexico come here than from Europe or other locations.

[PLAYER57832]

... Multiculturalism is popularly discussed as a concept by which no one culture is superior, or should take precedence over any other within a nation.
.

This is a good definition, but I don't believe it is possible to acheive for more than an "eye blink". The reason is because cultures don't stay beside each other and remain the same. In fact, no culture stays the same... ever. Some cultures might change very slowly and others more quickly, but they all change. Today, with instand communication through the internet and TV, change is coming even more quickly.

The real question is not "how to keep culture from changing", it is "how to manage that change so it causes the least pain". I think, in a country like Norway or France, that means taking steps to hang onto parts of the past, the "base" culture, if you will.

How much of culture can be effectively managed?

And more importantly, why should culture be managed? A "culture" is a composed of various subcultures with their respective individuals, so are we discussing the management of a culture, the dominant culture, or certain subcultures?

I think the "management" needs to be up to the participants. However, The problem is that too often it becomes a battle between far right "we HATE those people" rhetoric and the liberal "we LOVE everyone.. except, perhaps, our own culture". We need some in-between sensibility. Folks need to be able to decide how much and what kind of change is allowed and still be reasonable.

The biggest problem is that honest type discussion has so rarely happened.. its been shouting matches between the extremes.

[Pirlo]

Not like this is news.

Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed," Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday, adding fuel to a debate over immigration and Islam polarizing her conservative camp. Merkel faces pressure from within her CDU to take a tougher line on immigrants who don't show a willingness to adapt to German society and her comments appeared intended to pacify her critics.

She said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her usual line that they should learn German in order to get by in school and have opportunities on the labor market.

The debate over foreigners in Germany has shifted since former central banker Thilo Sarrazin published a book accusing Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society.

Sarrazin was censured for his views and dismissed from the Bundesbank, but his book proved highly popular and polls showed a majority of Germans agreed with the thrust of his arguments.

Merkel has tried to accommodate both sides of the debate, talking tough on integration but also telling Germans that they must accept that mosques have become part of their landscape.

She said on Saturday that the education of unemployed Germans should take priority over recruiting workers from abroad

Pardon me sir. Merkel is just a bitch.. west europe, and especially germany, needed a lot of people after wwii to rebuild and reconstruct what the war had done. and now when germany became one of the richest countries, a big thank for the immigrants and their reconstruction share in that country, now the newer generations (including the bitch) just want the country for them alone? fucking supremacists!!

[Phatscotty]

Pardon me, but it's not just Merkel. It's also Sarkozi and Cameron.

Germany I'm sure has no thanks at all for the people who built the industrial base and invested in production. All the thanks go to the immigrants who filled those jobs.

Europe, seems to me, is starting to get a little fed up with all the BS, and calling them "supremacists" ain't gonna help. Do these countries have a duty to take people in from other countries?

Granted I do not live there, I do hear what their leaders are saying, and those kinds of words don't get votes....so.....I'm taking them seriously

[Woodruff]

... Before this discussion drags on, perhaps someone (Player, that's you) should define the term, Multiculturalism.

... Your initial post (Player again) said that you valued multiculturalism. I am curious if your understanding of the term is the same as those who have posted here (myself included).

...

I think having people who come from different experiences and different views is important. Howeve, the irony is that the more we are exposed to various ideas, other cultures, the more our own culture changes.

We used to talk about the "melting pot" here in the US. Now, folks say we are more like a casserole, where some parts are melted together and some chunks stay recognizable. But, that is not an easy process. And, is it really best? I don't know. The truth is that the whole idea of a static culture is just wrong. Things have, in the past seemed rather static, because change was mostly gradual, but interspersed with wars and such that made great changes. Today, with TV and the internet, things are changing very rapidly in our own lifetimes.

That process is hard for some, no matter how you slice it. We do have to find ways to set boundaries. Mistakes were made in the past by Europe, by the US, etc. However, we can learn from those lessons and move forward. I don't think anyone benefits from a kind of "revenge" or "tit for tat". (you overran us, now we will overrun you). However, if you go to other countries, those that were overrun by "us", there is a lot of anger. And, facing that anger, a lot of people both in the US and in Europe react in kind.

So, in short.. defining multiculturalism is part of the problem. Just what is it? What should it be?

... Multiculturalism is popularly discussed as a concept by which no one culture is superior, or should take precedence over any other within a nation.

... Whereas American culture is based on the individual, the individual American is the focus and has value, multiculturalism values the group (of like individuals) over all else.

... In the past people flocked to the United States to be part of the American dream, where they could be valued for their individual efforts. They largely kept the cultures of their home countries within their families and communities, but first and foremost they were American citizens. They adopted the English language, they took part in the political processes, they abided by US law.

... That still goes on today, I see it in the local Vietnamese and Chinese communities. But I know a lot of immigrants do not rate themselves as Americans first. They still see themselves as belonging to the culture of whatever nation it is they came from, where American culture is something happening in the background, having little effect on them.
...

This is really good, Nobunaga. I too have a real problem with those who immigrate here who DON'T think of themselves as Americans first. That doesn't necessarily affect their culture, but rather their mindset. I actually prefer that they keep their culture, but I absolutely want them to consider themselves American rather than "displaced whatevers". Unfortunately, there is a group of immigrants that exist these days with that perspective. It has probably always been that way to a degree, but I do believe it has gotten worse.

[BigBallinStalin]

(5) Is there not a reason why people go to other countries? Are these reasons not related in some way to the culture of the nation they are going to? Why would someone escaping from Mexico for example, want to reinstitute Mexican culture in the United States?

What other culture would a Mexican bring with him? Cultural norms and values are baggage which can't be easily discarded...

[thegreekdog]

(5) Is there not a reason why people go to other countries? Are these reasons not related in some way to the culture of the nation they are going to? Why would someone escaping from Mexico for example, want to reinstitute Mexican culture in the United States?

What other culture would a Mexican bring with him? Cultural norms and values are baggage which can't be easily discarded...

I did not state my point accurately. My point is this - why would a second generation (or third generation) American with a Mexican background not want to assimilate in some substantial way into United States culture. I understand and agree with keeping aspects of one's own culture and country of origin. My relatives still cook sheep on spits, for example and we have naked wrestling at every family event.

But is the point of going to another country merely one of economic opportunity? Do immigrants want to keep their own culture (and force others to acclimate to the immigrants' culture)? I doubt that... history appears to have shown that immigrants or their children acclimate to the culture of the country they immigrate to.

[PLAYER57832]

(5) Is there not a reason why people go to other countries? Are these reasons not related in some way to the culture of the nation they are going to? Why would someone escaping from Mexico for example, want to reinstitute Mexican culture in the United States?

What other culture would a Mexican bring with him? Cultural norms and values are baggage which can't be easily discarded...

I did not state my point accurately. My point is this - why would a second generation (or third generation) American with a Mexican background not want to assimilate in some substantial way into United States culture. I understand and agree with keeping aspects of one's own culture and country of origin. My relatives still cook sheep on spits, for example and we have naked wrestling at every family event.

It depends on how they are raised.

As I have mentioned before, my father is an immigrant. We joined various organizations tied to that culture, even wound up living in a town where that culture dominates (though somewhat more for tourists now). Yet, this town that essentially was built as a tourist town "celebrating" the culture now has probably as many Mexicans as people from the culture the town is known for.

I myself saw the near demise of the fraternal/cultural organization. We all enjoyed them as children, but as adults, it is just hard to keep up. There are too many other things coming in. BUT, while all of our parents made sure we attended the festivities, took part in various cultural activities (gymnastics, folk dances, food sales, celebrations, etc, etc.), they always kept the fact that we were AMERICANS first. You always saw both the original countries' flags.. ALWAYS, except on the Christmas tree (because it is not an American thing to put flags on the tree). This was not just "for show", it is how all of us were brought up. In fact, my father actually refused to teach my brothers and I his language, because we were to live here. (I learned it later).

HOWEVER, when it came to Mexicans, that was not the attitude, at all. My father sometimes had occasion to work with Mexican workers. At first, he was patient with their lack of English skills. He, too, had come here not speaking English. He patiently would point to things and give their name (and no, my father is not at all condescending. He is known for being extremely tolerant and patient). Their response "No hable englez". They wanted HIM to learn Spanish, they would not learn English! Finally, in frustration, he began talking to them in HIS language. Only then, when it became clear that English was not his native language, only then would they try to honestly learn the few words that would help with the work.

I saw similar things in school. There was always a kind of division between those kids who more or less pretended they were not Mexican and those who used it as an excuse for failure. I know there are a lot of issues involved when you talk about kids and teens. If they have a hard time, many will rebel and simply give up instead of pushing themselves.

We saw many families transition to citizenship under Reagan. We DID see a change in some attitudes, then. They asked my dad to help with citizenship information (he found out about classes for them, helped them when needed). However, it was not universal. I do believe this is the biggest outfall of lack of citizenship. You have a mix of people who live here, but are not truly a part of the system, and their kids who often see great hardships and disdain to which their parents are subjected. Some basically understand the anger against them, work hard to be "good citizens", but many grow angry. (I am sure those who saw their parents torn away are among the angry)

Another difference is history. California, Texas, all were basically part of Mexico, part of the same cultural groups that became Mexico. Takeovers, wars are never easy. Many of the Native Americans out west speak spanish at home and identify with the Mexicans as much or more than with European immigrant descendants. For many, a return to Spanish is seen as a return of some kind of "justice".

But is the point of going to another country merely one of economic opportunity?

It varies strongly. There are likely almost as many reasons to come here as there are people coming here. What happens after though is not just a function of why people came, but of how they were treated.

We like to look at Chinatowns now as "cultural diversity". Yet, we have to remember that many Chinese were essentially conscripted and then relegated to selected areas they were not allowed to leave. Even in my lifetime, while Chinese were certainly allowed to move most places, there were still segregated communities and places where they were just less than fully welcome. It is to their cultural credit that they "made lemonade from lemons". However, you still see strains of resentment in those areas.

Do immigrants want to keep their own culture (and force others to acclimate to the immigrants' culture)? I doubt that... history appears to have shown that immigrants or their children acclimate to the culture of the country they immigrate to.

Actually it is never a one-way street. If you look at what we call "American" culture or, more particularly the regional variations, you can absolutely see whispers of other cultures. The whole rock and country music phenomena are almost stereotypical examples. You can see it in our foods, from apple pie and hotdogs to fries and chips... etc, etc, etc. Most of us now eat tacos and burritos. Sure, that is superficial, but it also indicates transition of cultures. Its a lot easier to point to foods and music than to different ways of viewing things. I am not going to get into this too much, because it is the work of multiple PhDs and none of us has the time to get into it. Also, I think most of us in the US (and probably Canada, Australia) can think of examples readily without my needing to point them out.

And, we have to remember, as I noted above, a lot of times assimilation meant giving up the base culture. Children from those cultures that could "pass for white" fared reasonably well. As soon as they lost their accents and such, they sould more or less blend in. That was the goal of most immigrants.. or at least the lauded goal up until the mid 60's.