No thread on Obama's speech

[PLAYER57832]

Not talking about the speech itself, here, but I find it interesting that not a single thread has been created.

Did people here just not watch it?
Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?
Or are people just tired of rehashing the same political stuff?

[Night Strike]

We already had a thread on this topic way back in 2009: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... =8&t=76299.


We tried an $800 billion stimulus and LOST net 1.7 million jobs. Does that mean with this new $450 billion stimulus we'll only be losing net 900,000 jobs? YAY US!!!

[AndyDufresne]

Night Strike for president. He is the only one who really wants to see the USA succeed. Sorry 299,999,999 or so others.


--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

Night Strike for president. He is the only one who really wants to see the USA succeed. Sorry 299,999,999 or so others.


--Andy

Count me in, so make that number 299,999,998 or so.

If NS was elected president, the country would most likely face a revolution, and both parties would probably be overthrown--or perhaps other states would secede in the process.

[Night Strike]

Here's a REAL jobs bill, and it's only 1-sentence long:

H.R. 2587: Protecting Jobs From Government Interference Act

112th Congress: 2011-2012

To prohibit the National Labor Relations Board from ordering any employer to close, relocate, or transfer employment under any circumstance.

Sponsor: Rep. Tim Scott [R-SC1]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-2587

[rockfist]

I read the speech...didn't watch it...I think most people are tuning both Obama and Congress out.

Obama wants to position this as him versus Congress, which to some extent it is. He thinks he can run against Congress because they have a low approval rating, the problem with this idea is that although most Americans rate the whole of Congress lower than they would rate Obama - most Americans like their particular congressperson. When people go into the election booth they will see Obama versus whoever the Republican nominee is - and their congressperson versus whoever the opposing party candidate is. If there were a "Obama versus Congress" lever, he would win every time.

The problem with Obama talking about jobs is that he hasn't made this his primary focus during his Presidency and the lack of jobs has been an issue since he took office. When he decided to tackle heath care it took the focus away from jobs and a lot of people with job uncertainty or who were out of work got the impression that he did not care about their situation and was more focused on the holy grail of left wing politicians - health care.

If Obama had focused laser like on jobs - and fixed the recession, whether that be through stimulus or tax cuts, the American people would have given him healthcare later and the level of vitriol it generated would have been half or less that it is now. He would've cruised through to re-election even with a healthcare bill that was deeply unpopular with conservatives. Because he tackled and got healthcare first he was able to ensure that he achieved that goal, but it has made his "jobs focus" seem disengenious to many voters.

The above is my opinion. It is based on my thoughts on what I have read or heard through talking to people or on TV. It is not a scientific poll nor have I located specific sources I can site to back up this opinion.

[PLAYER57832]

He thinks he can run against Congress because they have a low approval rating, the problem with this idea is that although most Americans rate the whole of Congress lower than they would rate Obama - most Americans like their particular congressperson.

Are you sure this is correct, that is, that people actually like their congressperson?
I would say it is more like many who voted for Obama. Its not that most of us who say we might vote for Obama again. Its not that we particularly LIKE him, its that he might be better than the alternatives (seems better than those presented to date, anyway -- I mean, I think I would seriously vote for Barney over Michael Bachman..a nd I HATE Barney! lol).

The problem with Obama talking about jobs is that he hasn't made this his primary focus during his Presidency and the lack of jobs has been an issue since he took office. When he decided to tackle heath care it took the focus away from jobs and a lot of people with job uncertainty or who were out of work got the impression that he did not care about their situation and was more focused on the holy grail of left wing politicians - health care.

If Obama had focused laser like on jobs - and fixed the recession, whether that be through stimulus or tax cuts, the American people would have given him healthcare later and the level of vitriol it generated would have been half or less that it is now. He would've cruised through to re-election even with a healthcare bill that was deeply unpopular with conservatives. Because he tackled and got healthcare first he was able to ensure that he achieved that goal, but it has made his "jobs focus" seem disengenious to many voters.

I agree with your overall assessment, that people distrust him on the jobs front. However, who's policies have been implemented more highly this past 30 years? Taxes keep getting lowered for corporations and the wealthy, protectionist rules eliminated... and jobs are not being created here. Is it really Obama that has failed us, or is it industry and banking that has failed us? I never thought it was government's responsibility to create jobs, with narrow exceptions for public works and job training situations.

[Woodruff]

Obama wants to position this as him versus Congress, which to some extent it is. He thinks he can run against Congress because they have a low approval rating, the problem with this idea is that although most Americans rate the whole of Congress lower than they would rate Obama - most Americans like their particular congressperson. When people go into the election booth they will see Obama versus whoever the Republican nominee is - and their congressperson versus whoever the opposing party candidate is. If there were a "Obama versus Congress" lever, he would win every time.

Yes, there is a lot of truth to this.

[Night Strike]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

[Woodruff]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

Throwing bullshit at the wall to see what sticks should not correlate to "doing something".

[Night Strike]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

Throwing bullshit at the wall to see what sticks should not correlate to "doing something".

Balancing the budget counts as bullshit?

[Woodruff]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

Throwing bullshit at the wall to see what sticks should not correlate to "doing something".

Balancing the budget counts as bullshit?

In the case of the stuff that the Republicans have largely put out...yes.

[Phatscotty]

Previously myself and other have wondered why this bill started at 250 billion, then went to 300 billion, 400 billion, 450 billion, and ended at 457 billion.

Answer: Obama knows the bill won't get passed by Congress, based on the reality that at least 12 Democratic Senators have publicly stated they don't want anything to do with this bill, making them likely "No" votes. When you couple that with the fact that Obama has been giving many follow up speeches, only in Republican held states purple states, he is preparing for the day when the jobs numbers dump again and double dip recession/depression hits, he can look back and say "If only we passed the jobs bill, this would have never happened! It's congresses fault!"

CYA all the way.

Is this kinda what you were getting at Rock when you said Obama was preparing to run against Congress?

[PLAYER57832]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

Throwing bullshit at the wall to see what sticks should not correlate to "doing something".

Balancing the budget counts as bullshit?

In the case of the stuff that the Republicans have largely put out...yes.

Not sure I can much better about the current Democractic proposals, but it does seem theirs stink a tad less.

[spurgistan]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

Throwing bullshit at the wall to see what sticks should not correlate to "doing something".

Balancing the budget counts as bullshit?

Balancing the budget =/ jobs bill. They're pretty much antithetical.

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah.. and the thing is we HAVE, as a country pretty much been following the Republican "ideas" so far.. lowering taxes for corporations and the upper escheolon, but jobs keep decreasing.

So, why is it that so many seem to think more of the same will help.

I am not saying I fully endorse what Obama is putting forward, (not even sure I like it at all), but we need CHANGE.


Oh.. and to illustrate why this "support job creators" is garbage, just think about it a minute. If job creation, in itself were always good, then we should support drug dealers! After all, they have a thriving business! We don't because they cause more harm to society than they benefit. A corporation like Walmart or even GE may not cause as much harm as drug dealers (absolutely true, at least in the short term), BUT they are not benefitting us in the long term. THAT failure to distinguish, failure to hold companies accountable.. FULLY accountable for their actions is why we are in the mess we are in.

It is not individual taxpayers who have run up this huge bill. It is not school lunch programs and rent subsidies that are driving the deficit, it is all the myriad of tax breaks, combined with failures to allocate funds where and when they are needed, (transportation, for example, job training for another) that is driving our economy into the tank.

[Night Strike]

Or is everyone just tired of hearing things that don't come to pass, waiting for congress to act?

By the way, I forgot that I needed to reply to this. Doing nothing =/= not doing what Obama wants. I heard on the radio on Tuesday that the House has passed 12 jobs bills (the one I just posted would make 13), including Cut Cap and Balance. It's not the Republicans who are doing nothing.

Throwing bullshit at the wall to see what sticks should not correlate to "doing something".

Balancing the budget counts as bullshit?

Balancing the budget =/ jobs bill. They're pretty much antithetical.

After the 2009 stimulus utterly failed, it should be pretty clear that the government can't create jobs.

Yeah.. and the thing is we HAVE, as a country pretty much been following the Republican "ideas" so far.. lowering taxes for corporations and the upper escheolon, but jobs keep decreasing.

Because that's NOT what we have been doing. We've been bailing out banks and companies and then passing MASSIVE new regulations and taxes that actually destroy jobs. Obamacare was a massive tax increase on businesses as well as forced increases in purchasing health insurance. Businesses aren't adding jobs because in every speech, Obama proclaims that the "rich" (his definition, not a real definition) must pay even more in taxes. That uncertainty has helped to destroy job growth. Get the government out of the way and the economy will improve.

[Phatscotty]

Even Obama admitted the white house cant' create jobs. Anyone arguing it can is going uphill.

[safariguy5]

The problem is Obama is not giving us new ideas. There's no evidence that what didn't work a few years ago will work now.

My take? Cut the 35% corporate tax rate down to be in line with most of the rest of Europe and the First World. You'd bring corporation headquarters back to the US and they would start investing in the local economy now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a democrat and would still vote for Obama against anyone the republicans put out there. I just think he needs to try something different.

[Phatscotty]

The problem is Obama is not giving us new ideas. There's no evidence that what didn't work a few years ago will work now.

My take? Cut the 35% corporate tax rate down to be in line with most of the rest of Europe and the First World. You'd bring corporation headquarters back to the US and they would start investing in the local economy now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a democrat and would still vote for Obama against anyone the republicans put out there. I just think he needs to try something different.

Boom! I would consider voting for Obama if he did this and came to the center! So long as it was actually done and not smoke n mirrors to get votes.

[Woodruff]

The problem is Obama is not giving us new ideas. There's no evidence that what didn't work a few years ago will work now.

My take? Cut the 35% corporate tax rate down to be in line with most of the rest of Europe and the First World. You'd bring corporation headquarters back to the US and they would start investing in the local economy now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a democrat and would still vote for Obama against anyone the republicans put out there. I just think he needs to try something different.

Boom! I would consider voting for Obama if he did this and came to the center! So long as it was actually done and not smoke n mirrors to get votes.

Came to the center? You want Obama to become more liberal?

[rockfist]

Previously myself and other have wondered why this bill started at 250 billion, then went to 300 billion, 400 billion, 450 billion, and ended at 457 billion.

Answer: Obama knows the bill won't get passed by Congress, based on the reality that at least 12 Democratic Senators have publicly stated they don't want anything to do with this bill, making them likely "No" votes. When you couple that with the fact that Obama has been giving many follow up speeches, only in Republican held states purple states, he is preparing for the day when the jobs numbers dump again and double dip recession/depression hits, he can look back and say "If only we passed the jobs bill, this would have never happened! It's congresses fault!"

CYA all the way.

Is this kinda what you were getting at Rock when you said Obama was preparing to run against Congress?

Yes, I think this is a large part of what I was getting at in regards to this speech and action.

[Phatscotty]

Previously myself and other have wondered why this bill started at 250 billion, then went to 300 billion, 400 billion, 450 billion, and ended at 457 billion.

Answer: Obama knows the bill won't get passed by Congress, based on the reality that at least 12 Democratic Senators have publicly stated they don't want anything to do with this bill, making them likely "No" votes. When you couple that with the fact that Obama has been giving many follow up speeches, only in Republican held states purple states, he is preparing for the day when the jobs numbers dump again and double dip recession/depression hits, he can look back and say "If only we passed the jobs bill, this would have never happened! It's congresses fault!"

CYA all the way.

Is this kinda what you were getting at Rock when you said Obama was preparing to run against Congress?

Yes, I think this is a large part of what I was getting at in regards to this speech and action.

It kind of worked with the budget bill...but that's just cosmetics

[rockfist]

It worked in that it set him up against Congress and it may have worked in the short term to make him more popular, but its the long term that matters this far out and the jury is still out on that.

I think it makes sense politically to try it, because he doesn't want to run on his job growth or economic growth numbers. He does not want to run on his foreign policy with the middle east burning and us still engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq. What's the worst for him is he can't run on his health care bill, which should be his signature piece of legislation. People may ultimately decide they like his health care bill, but as of today most don't and haven't since it was past so that would be an epic hail mary for a campaign issue.

Running against Congress is more like a third and ten play than a hail mary.

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah.. and the thing is we HAVE, as a country pretty much been following the Republican "ideas" so far.. lowering taxes for corporations and the upper escheolon, but jobs keep decreasing.

Because that's NOT what we have been doing. We've been bailing out banks and companies and then passing MASSIVE new regulations and taxes that actually destroy jobs. Obamacare was a massive tax increase on businesses as well as forced increases in purchasing health insurance. Businesses aren't adding jobs because in every speech, Obama proclaims that the "rich" (his definition, not a real definition) must pay even more in taxes. That uncertainty has helped to destroy job growth. Get the government out of the way and the economy will improve.

[/quote]Whatever party you think you are talking about, it sure is not the Republicans.
HINT -- try looking into the Republican healthcare plan.. oh, say, back when Hillary was working on it for her husband.

And... well, if you think supporting jobs is all that matters, then I guess we should all just go support drug dealers. After all, they DO provide income to communities. And, often quite a lot.