Dukasaur wrote: Symmetry wrote:This really is going to be the full extent of your arguments here, isn't it? You'll dismiss everything anyone else says as crap, blind, wishful thinking, and when asked to elaborate on your criticism, we'll only get a few lines about how we won't understand, or we'll see in the end.
History teaches us lessons, but you're not interested. You have posted quite a few times already in this thread that you think the history is irrelevant.
Is that really true or is it just that Symmetry, along with several others disagree or even just question whether you are getting your information?
Dukasaur wrote:Hamas is simply this week's flavour of the Khmer Rouge.
Yes, but we were talking about the Palestinien people as a whole, not just the most radical group. However, if you wan to know why Hamas is gaining respect and power, HAS gained so much power, you might look at how they have acted in the territories, as opposed to all the western nations and Israel. Hammas was feeding orphans and widows, building schools while the west stood by and let Israel provide only the most minimal benefits, while at the same time destroying homes and schools and shooting kids with rocks.
Dukasaur wrote:Fact A: History teaches us that revolutionary movements don't become more moderate over time, they become more extreme. Fact B: History also teaches us that every time it happens, the majority of people are engaged in wishful thinking, telling themselves it will be different this time. And I'm sorry, but you definitely fall into that group. If you were alive in the Sixties, you would have thought, like most people, that Castro was harmless, and if you were alive in the Thirties you would have, like most people, preached a "wait and see" attitude about Hitler.
Interesting interpretations of western history, there.
Why are you ignoring the fact that the US government helped install Castro, believing him to be a ready puppet. THAT is why we keep getting into problems. We force people to accept those we consider "willing puppets", but in fact, the truth is that anyone who would take the US interest over that of their own country is going to be "bought and sold" to the "highest bidder." The Soviet Union was happy to let us do the hard work, then they could swoop in with their bribes to ensure they controlled the puppets instead of us. This is the SAME mistake you want to make here.
The truth IS that when people are treated badly, they WILL rise up. That is what we did, here in America. It is supposed to be part of how progress is made. Why, so, do the Palestiniens not have that SAME right to rule themselves. If they turn to Islamic extremism, it is because nothing else is providing them a ready solution. That is OUR fault. If we had gone in and built more schools, helped support folks instead of allowing Israel to treat Palestine like a second class colony bordering on prison camp, we might have wound up with true friends instead of near enemies. In truth, most Palestiniens actually like America.. though not necessarily our government. AND, their disgust at US actions in the past few years is quickly turning into hatred and anger.
You want to act as if there is no cause for revolution in the mideast, as if these things just happen because someone talks a good talk. The answer to extremism is to bring it in the open and to offer alternatives. Not to say "don't do as that guy with the gun is saying... but just watch your children go without education and even decent food, don't you dare get angry if Israel decides they want your homes and that your 700 year old settlements are "illegal transient establishments".
Oh.. by-the-way, I WAS alive in the 60's. And, while I was not alive in the 30's, my father was.. and lived in occupied Europe at the time. You don't have a clue of what you speak on those fronts. So don't even try to bring them into this thread.
Dukasaur wrote:I'm sure at some point you defended Robert Mugabe, right? And hey, I don't hate you for it, I know it's really difficult for normal people to face up to the fact that there are others out there who really mean what they say about mercilessly exterminating their enemies. I myself sent money I could barely afford to the Afghan mujahideen in the 1980s, thinking they were the good guys, just fighting for their freedom.
So what? So there are people who tolerate oppression, there are people who resist in mild ways and those who resist or promote resistance in extreme fashion. The ANSWER is not to label those fighting oppression as "nasty", and claim they are just criminals. The ANSWER is to provide alternatives, and to fight the oppression. Most people are not inherently out to get other people, but if you back them into a corner, most WILL fight. I am pretty passive, but I can gaurantee you if anyone comes after the kids in my neighborhood (anywhere that I can see), I DO step up and defend them! If I say I won't use a gun, its only because I have an accurate assessment of my skill and the time it would take me to access them. Its not that I consider intrusion unworthy of defense... I just find other means.
Do you SERIOUSLY think that a moderate Moslem really wants to see their kids turned into suicide bombers? They are no different from us. However, if a mother is faced with NO education, little food for her children or sending them to a school that is also radical, they take the school and the food. THAT is how Hammas has gained strength. Hammas is nasty, no question, but we would do well to stop pretending they just arose out of nothingness, as if Islam itself were always violant.
Dukasaur wrote:Even asking you for your opinion on the state of Israel's borders seems to cast into question my seriousness rather than eliciting an actual response.
Okay, there are two million people surrounded by two hundred million people. The latter have sworn an oath to exterminate the former, and are reminded of their oath at every daily prayer they attend.
I see, every single one of those 200 million (according to you) is just out to kill the 2 million? OR is that the rhetoric of a few leaders and extreme groups?
Further, you seem to imply they have no reason or justification for that attitude other than that they are just "nasty people". Of course, Israel is not out to "exterminate Palestiniens"... they just plain deny there ARE Palestiniens, that anyone in that land is "just an Arab" and with no rights to that land, no matter how many generations their families have lived on it.
Well, guess what, my parent's family had a pretty nasty opinion of Germans for a long time. Tends to happen when you are forced to put up with occupying soldiers! My father's family only had to do that for a few years and they "only" had to give up some food, space in their houses. They were not pushed out, their house was not razed and their orchards not cut down. Palestiniens face ALL of that and more every day.. and have for over 40 years!
Dukasaur wrote:At first the former succeeded in defending themselves by adopting the Spartan way, putting everyone in the military, devoting enormous amounts of time to military training, and so on.
Defend? Or was their entire entry an attack on the people who lived there already? Israel is pretty good at playing the victim. Yet.. they are, as Symmetry stated, THE major military power in that region. AND, Israel has been able to count on pretty much unlimited support of western nations, particularly the US to back anything it wants.
Ever actually pay attention to the court proceedings that claim to be legally confiscating Palestinien lands? Do you even know that Israel flat out denies essentially ANY deed, except those they themselves put forward? Easy to claim these are just "Arab insurgants and transients" when you refuse to allow any kind of proof to the contrary!
Dukasaur wrote:But as the population of the latter grows faster than the population of the former, it will eventually be not enough. Even if the Isrealis put everyone in the army at birth and keep them there to the grave, they will still be outnumbered.
I see, so your claim is that the Palestiniens are growing while Israel is not? That's pure bull! Palestiniens are being forced out of their land to make way for Israelis. Israel has the supreme advantage of encouraging Jews from all over the world to come to Israel, wiht the full blessing of the mostly western nations who are more than happy to be rid of their "Jewish problem". Besides the Israeli birthrate is not exactly low.
Dukasaur wrote:At first the Isrealis also had a big technological edge, but that has grown smaller and smaller, and right now it's very small indeed. Still an edge, but not much of one. And yes, Isreal has nukes, but so does Pakistan, and there's quite a nations in the region that are wealthy enough to buy them, as soon as one corrupt general in any of the world's nuclear club figures out a way to smuggle them over.
And.. you still don't answer why this even matters. What, exactly is so wrong about Palestine wanting its own nation and fighting for it.
So far, your basic argument is "they don't like Israel". So what?
) The remaining mixed population largely considered themselves descendants of Jacob (Israel) and heirs to the promises.
