Recognising a Palestinian State?

[BigBallinStalin]

I'm failing to see why your stance even addresses why Palestine shouldn't be recognized as a state.

It doesn't, to any significant degree. It's not something I'm particularly worried about. If the club of 160 currupt dictatorships wants to invite one more corrupt dictatorship to party at their swank Manhattan pad, will it really make a big difference to anyone? Just one more voice in the choir, singing tiresome predictable songs about Big Bad Evil Israel while the bodies pile up in the Sudan.

I didn't get involved in this thread because I cared about the OP, I was just answering to saxi's hate-mongering, and it kind of expanded from there.

Still, your position that:

Even if the Isrealis put everyone in the army at birth and keep them there to the grave, they will still be outnumbered. At first the Isrealis also had a big technological edge, but that has grown smaller and smaller, and right now it's very small indeed. Still an edge, but not much of one. And yes, Isreal has nukes, but so does Pakistan, and there's quite a nations in the region that are wealthy enough to buy them, as soon as one corrupt general in any of the world's nuclear club figures out a way to smuggle them over

And here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... d#p3382715

Here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3381938

And, especially this one:

The Palestinian state exists for one reason, and one reason only: to be the spearhead of a war of extermination against the Jews.

are all misled. You have no good reasons for your irrational hate of Palestinians and your unswerving love for its oppressors. Put the bottle of propaganda down, and think for awhile.

[Symmetry]

It doesn't, and he doesn't seem interested in trying. His arguments are apparently so obviously correct that simply asking for an explanation of how recognition of Palestine as a state by the UN, bearing in mind it's already recognized by most of the world, will destroy Israel is basically a kind of Nazism, apparently.

Does it occur to you that when an answer requires an hour's work, and one doesn't have an hour to spare, one might put it off until one does?

My priorities on CC are, 1st: organising tournaments; 2nd: playing games; 3rd: writing for the newsletter. Playing around in the Catbox is fourth, but if time is running short after dealing with the first three priorities I only toss in a couple one-liners and save the big serious debates for days when I have plenty of time to spare. Sometimes there are several such days in a week, other times there aren't. So, I haven't come back to this topic because I wanted to have a significant amount of time for it.

However, one of the less important points I can dispense with quickly:

I have perhaps missed the part of your rant where you explain how UN recognition is a threat.

I'm failing to see why your stance even addresses why Palestine shouldn't be recognized as a state.

It doesn't, to any significant degree. It's not something I'm particularly worried about. If the club of 160 currupt dictatorships wants to invite one more corrupt dictatorship to party at their swank Manhattan pad, will it really make a big difference to anyone? Just one more voice in the choir, singing tiresome predictable songs about Big Bad Evil Israel while the bodies pile up in the Sudan.

I didn't get involved in this thread because I cared about the OP, I was just answering to saxi's hate-mongering, and it kind of expanded from there.

You know you're coming across as a bit of a nut with this, right?

I'm not sure when or how you switched between the "it's so obvious" style of argument, to "it's too difficult to explain", but shining through your arguments, such as they are, is a kind of contempt for others who do not share your views.

You don't want to talk to us, you accuse me of Nazism, and it takes you five posts to answer a simple question, which is whether the UN should recognise a Palestinian state. You've gone from "It will destroy Israel- and anyone who argues otherwise is a closet Nazi", to "It doesn't matter, and it would be recognised by corrupt dictatorships anyway".

Honesty is a good thing, you know. If you simply have a racial, or cultural problem with Palestinians, then say so. Don't say that you oppose recognition because it will destroy Israel, then change to saying that you don't think it matters.

[Symmetry]

Does it occur to you that when an answer requires an hour's work, and one doesn't have an hour to spare, one might put it off until one does?

Did it really take an hour's deliberation on the subject of the UN recognising a Palestinian state to water down your criticism of the question to Nazi status?

[BigBallinStalin]

Only a Nazi would ask such a question!

[Dukasaur]

This is the type of rhetoric your side brought to the table:

For the last 40 years Uncle Sam has been bent over a table with an Israeli cock up his ass. America, you have the power --- put your mind to the job and avenge your dead and maimed sailors ...

What have the snakes given you in return and was it worth it?

Within ten years America will be bankrupt. One way or another the subsidy to Zionist colonialism will end. Once it does the nations of the Middle East will shove Israel into the ocean. Why don't you save yourself a few dollars by pulling up stakes now and unhooking yourselves from the puppet strings Israel has planted in your back?

And you're going to rake me over the coals because my rhetoric in return might have been excessive?

Lead by example. Next time ask your team to tone down the rhetoric before you ask the same from the opposition.

[BigBallinStalin]

This is the type of rhetoric your side brought to the table:

For the last 40 years Uncle Sam has been bent over a table with an Israeli cock up his ass. America, you have the power --- put your mind to the job and avenge your dead and maimed sailors ...

What have the snakes given you in return and was it worth it?

Within ten years America will be bankrupt. One way or another the subsidy to Zionist colonialism will end. Once it does the nations of the Middle East will shove Israel into the ocean. Why don't you save yourself a few dollars by pulling up stakes now and unhooking yourselves from the puppet strings Israel has planted in your back?

And you're going to rake me over the coals because my rhetoric in return might have been excessive?

Lead by example. Next time ask your team to tone down the rhetoric before you ask the same from the opposition.

Ah, so your border-line crazy talk is valid because someone else wrote down some border-line crazy talk?

Nope! You've just bought the propaganda and whole-heartedly believe in it. Your positions are as radical and unfounded as the Islamic fundamentalists'.


Saxi's point is more diplomatically addressed in Mearsheimer's Israel Lobby, which I largely agree with; so, why would I challenge saxi's underlying views?

[Ray Rider]

If you want to use the criteria of "national unity, economic viability, and security," then Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and more should have their UN-recognition revoked.

Some people here seem quite willing to condemn the Israelis for moving to Palestine and creating a nation there. What about all the Arabs who were immigrating to Palestine around the same time the Jews were? Have you taken them into account? There's still over a million Arabs in Israel. Maybe you should find the descendants of those immagrants, weed them out and kick them out along with the Jews simply because both groups were immigrating there?

Claiming that everyone there are just recent migrants is the most stupid thing anyone has said in this thread.

It would have been if that were what someone had claimed, which obviously nobody did. Reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I claim that "everyone there are just recent immigrants." There were thousands of Arabs there before 1948 and thousands of Jews there prior to 1948 (although a minority of Jews).

"...So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish Population."
--Winston Churchill, 1939

Nice try. Did you actually READ it? It says that ARabs are having children and therefore outstripping the Jewish population. Well.. of course!
And the same for the rest.

Reread the quote. He said they "have crowded into the country and multiplied..." He was referring to the recent influx; If they were there all the time, he would have only said that they were multiplying there.

Care to dig up the real population statistics from then? No reliable statistics exist. Among other issues, both the Ottomans and the British did not even count migratory Bedouin tribes!

That's what I was saying: "the flow of Arabs was generally less restricted and unrecorded." Simply because the flow of Jews to the area was more regulated, restricted, and recorded doesn't mean that they somehow have no right to be there. If people are going to claim the Jews have no right to live their because many immigrated there in the early part of the 20th century, then that person must also say that many Arabs have no right to live there because many of them immigrated there around the same time. You can't go back and try to kick people out because of what happened over 60 years ago. That holds true for the Israelis regarding the West Bank & Gaza Strip, and it holds true for the neighboring Arab countries regarding Israel.

"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
--Martin Luther King

RR, you are actually making sense but why do you finish with a well-known forgery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_ ... ist_Friend or
http://www.boycottwatch.org/misc/MLK01.htm?

I would apologize if it were a forgery; however the two links you gave there are discrediting some random speech and/or letter which was attributed to Martin Luther King, which I had no knowledge of and was not quoting from. Both links say that the one sentence I quoted is accurate, although the later extrapolation of the quote into a letter or speech by King is a forgery.

[Baron Von PWN]

This really is going to be the full extent of your arguments here, isn't it? You'll dismiss everything anyone else says as crap, blind, wishful thinking, and when asked to elaborate on your criticism, we'll only get a few lines about how we won't understand, or we'll see in the end.

History teaches us lessons, but you're not interested. You have posted quite a few times already in this thread that you think the history is irrelevant. Hamas is simply this week's flavour of the Khmer Rouge. Fact A: History teaches us that revolutionary movements don't become more moderate over time, they become more extreme. Fact B: History also teaches us that every time it happens, the majority of people are engaged in wishful thinking, telling themselves it will be different this time. And I'm sorry, but you definitely fall into that group. If you were alive in the Sixties, you would have thought, like most people, that Castro was harmless, and if you were alive in the Thirties you would have, like most people, preached a "wait and see" attitude about Hitler. I'm sure at some point you defended Robert Mugabe, right? And hey, I don't hate you for it, I know it's really difficult for normal people to face up to the fact that there are others out there who really mean what they say about mercilessly exterminating their enemies. I myself sent money I could barely afford to the Afghan mujahideen in the 1980s, thinking they were the good guys, just fighting for their freedom.

Even asking you for your opinion on the state of Israel's borders seems to cast into question my seriousness rather than eliciting an actual response.

Okay, there are two million people surrounded by two hundred million people. The latter have sworn an oath to exterminate the former, and are reminded of their oath at every daily prayer they attend. At first the former succeeded in defending themselves by adopting the Spartan way, putting everyone in the military, devoting enormous amounts of time to military training, and so on. But as the population of the latter grows faster than the population of the former, it will eventually be not enough. Even if the Isrealis put everyone in the army at birth and keep them there to the grave, they will still be outnumbered. At first the Isrealis also had a big technological edge, but that has grown smaller and smaller, and right now it's very small indeed. Still an edge, but not much of one. And yes, Isreal has nukes, but so does Pakistan, and there's quite a nations in the region that are wealthy enough to buy them, as soon as one corrupt general in any of the world's nuclear club figures out a way to smuggle them over.

"Fact" A is patently untrue. One need only look at just about any one of the former communist states to see revolutionary movements moderate over time. "fact" B every time what happens? A revolution? also completely untrue. People were terrified of the Bolsheviks, and the french republicans before them.

Also this Gem.

How dubious was it? Yes, China had a much-celebrated break with Russia, but that was mainly cosmetic. In real concrete terms there was not much difference between Mao's China and Stalin's Russia.

Stalin was dead long before the Sino-Soviet split. The reason that split occurred was because the Soviet Union (under Khrushchev) was no longer communist enough for the Chinese. I suppose you wouldn't like that though as it kind of goes against your revolutions always get more revolutionary shtick .

what any of that has to do with Palestine I have no idea. I just enjoy correcting historical misconceptions.

[PLAYER57832]

If you want to use the criteria of "national unity, economic viability, and security," then Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and more should have their UN-recognition revoked.

Some people here seem quite willing to condemn the Israelis for moving to Palestine and creating a nation there. What about all the Arabs who were immigrating to Palestine around the same time the Jews were? Have you taken them into account? There's still over a million Arabs in Israel. Maybe you should find the descendants of those immagrants, weed them out and kick them out along with the Jews simply because both groups were immigrating there?

Claiming that everyone there are just recent migrants is the most stupid thing anyone has said in this thread.

It would have been if that were what someone had claimed, which obviously nobody did. Reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I claim that "everyone there are just recent immigrants." There were thousands of Arabs there before 1948 and thousands of Jews there prior to 1948 (although a minority of Jews).

"...So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish Population."
--Winston Churchill, 1939

Nice try. Did you actually READ it? It says that ARabs are having children and therefore outstripping the Jewish population. Well.. of course!
And the same for the rest.

Reread the quote. He said they "have crowded into the country and multiplied..." He was referring to the recent influx; If they were there all the time, he would have only said that they were multiplying there.

And your claim is that because some Arabs were coming in along with Jews, the claim that Arabs lived there continuously (which they did, in large numbers) and that Jews 2000 year old claim was therefore equally valid...

Care to dig up the real population statistics from then? No reliable statistics exist. Among other issues, both the Ottomans and the British did not even count migratory Bedouin tribes!

That's what I was saying: "the flow of Arabs was generally less restricted and unrecorded." Simply because the flow of Jews to the area was more regulated, restricted, and recorded doesn't mean that they somehow have no right to be there.[/quote]

If people are going to claim the Jews have no right to live their because many immigrated there in the early part of the 20th century, then that person must also say that many Arabs have no right to live there because many of them immigrated there around the same time. You can't go back and try to kick people out because of what happened over 60 years ago. That holds true for the Israelis regarding the West Bank & Gaza Strip, and it holds true for the neighboring Arab countries regarding Israel

.
Distortion ,much?
The fact is that only a handful of Jews still persisted, mostly tight with Jerusalem, whereas the people we now call Palestiniens had settlements going back hundreds of years... homes that the west has conveniently dismissed.

[saxitoxin]

TOMORROW'S DATE (Oct. 2) in 1187, Sultan Saladin the Great of Syria captured Jerusalem from the Knights Templar. Three days after the surrender of the city, Saladin ordered all Jewish property that had been expropriated by the crusaders returned, the synagogues reopened and Jews permitted to settle in the city.

In June 1967 Israel captured the Golan Heights from Syria, expelled all Syrians and began settling the area themselves.

Yes, Israel is less than even a medieval civilization.

[Symmetry]

This is the type of rhetoric your side brought to the table:

For the last 40 years Uncle Sam has been bent over a table with an Israeli cock up his ass. America, you have the power --- put your mind to the job and avenge your dead and maimed sailors ...

What have the snakes given you in return and was it worth it?

Within ten years America will be bankrupt. One way or another the subsidy to Zionist colonialism will end. Once it does the nations of the Middle East will shove Israel into the ocean. Why don't you save yourself a few dollars by pulling up stakes now and unhooking yourselves from the puppet strings Israel has planted in your back?

And you're going to rake me over the coals because my rhetoric in return might have been excessive?

Lead by example. Next time ask your team to tone down the rhetoric before you ask the same from the opposition.

I suppose I can try, but I'm not a member of a team, much less its leader. So I'm not sure how I can lead, and I don't think the people who you have issues with are under my leadership. Are you following this? I have no idea.

You would, perhaps, be better off if you didn't consider me a leader of some conspiracy of posters. Just saying. Also, still not a Nazi.

[saxitoxin]

Lead by example. Next time ask your team to tone down the rhetoric before you ask the same from the opposition.

THERE ARE NO TEAMS. This is tennis. And I'm Stefi Graf:



Symmetry is Andy Roddick:



Player is Sheila Johnson:



InkL0sed is Tina:



BBS is Nacho Figueras:

"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
--Martin Luther King

RR, you are actually making sense but why do you finish with a well-known forgery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_ ... ist_Friend or
http://www.boycottwatch.org/misc/MLK01.htm?

I would apologize if it were a forgery; however the two links you gave there are discrediting some random speech and/or letter which was attributed to Martin Luther King, which I had no knowledge of and was not quoting from. Both links say that the one sentence I quoted is accurate, although the later extrapolation of the quote into a letter or speech by King is a forgery.

While we're throwing out quotes -

• "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house." - Moshe Dayan, Foreign Minister of Israel, 1977-1979

[Army of GOD]

saxi, I don't see myself on the team.

[saxitoxin]

saxi, I don't see myself on the team.

LOL, like you play tennis.

[Army of GOD]

[saxitoxin]

What're you packing in there, your lunch? Real tennis players play with empty pockets, AoG! Go back to 10th grade P.E. badminton!

LMAO, AoG tried to out-jock ol' Saxi and Saxi made him SIDOWN!

[Army of GOD]

saxi, the last time you played tennis they still used wooden rackets. You don't know nuthin' about today's athletes.

[Dukasaur]

You would, perhaps, be better off if you didn't consider me a leader of some conspiracy of posters. Just saying. Also, still not a Nazi.

I never said you were a Nazi. I believe I said, "if you are not a Nazi, then take off your blinders." [emphasis added]

That is what is known as a conditional statement, and it is also a statement in the imperative mode. An imperative cannot be an assertion, and even if it was, it would still be only a conditional assertion.

So, IF you are still not a Nazi, then I assume you are in the process of taking off your blinders. Either that, or you choose to ignore my advice, which is fine: I claim no special powers over you.

[BigBallinStalin]

I never said you were a Nazi. I believe I said, "if you are not a Nazi, then take off your blinders." [emphasis added]

That is what is known as a conditional statement, and it is also a statement in the imperative mode. An imperative cannot be an assertion, and even if it was, it would still be only a conditional assertion.

So, IF you are still not a Nazi, then I assume you are in the process of taking off your blinders. Either that, or you choose to ignore my advice, which is fine: I claim no special powers over you.

OO!! LET ME TRY!!!!


"If you are not an ultra-nationalist Israeli, then take off your blinders."

[Army of GOD]

"If you don't have a small penis, take off your blinders"

[saxitoxin]

saxi, the last time you played tennis they still used wooden rackets. You don't know nuthin' about today's athletes.

Joke's on you, I play twice each week at the Santa Barbara Polo Club. My Pro says I'm his best student in the over 65 group. SUCKA.

Proof = Winning | Point, Saxi

"If you don't have a small penis, take off your blinders"

Keep on your blinders then, AoG! LOL - BURRRRRNNNN!!!!!

I got AoG good, gang! I got him good!

[Symmetry]

So, IF you are still not a Nazi, then I assume you are in the process of taking off your blinders. Either that, or you choose to ignore my advice, which is fine: I claim no special powers over you.

Seriously? Did the English language actually provide consent when you typed that? Was it drunk? Have you stopped beating it yet?

[Army of GOD]

Don't worry Symm. He's probably trolling with that comment.


At least I hope he's trolling...

[Dukasaur]

Don't worry Symm. He's probably trolling with that comment.


At least I hope he's trolling...

Actually it was saxi that was trolling, and although I should know better, I got sucked in. Then, I answered some comment of symmetry's while I was still in a blind rage from reading saxi's shit, and I went overboard. Again, I should have known better. So symm is right that what I said was crap, although he's definitely wrong in playing the drama queen and acting like he was actually harmed in some way.

[BigBallinStalin]

Don't worry Symm. He's probably trolling with that comment.


At least I hope he's trolling...

Actually it was saxi that was trolling, and although I should know better, I got sucked in. Then, I answered some comment of symmetry's while I was still in a blind rage from reading saxi's shit, and I went overboard. Again, I should have known better. So symm is right that what I said was crap, although he's definitely wrong in playing the drama queen and acting like he was actually harmed in some way.

So what's your opinion on the Roma people?