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Paterno

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:38 am

I have addressed the abuse allegations specifically in the other thread (Paterno passed).

But, it is clear that many people here really don't know what he truly represented, why he is so revered in this area. I myself did not know all of it.

I want to share some of that here, because Paterno is a man who's like we won't see again soon.
Many of you are likely aware that he held not just a high athletic standard, but a very high academic standard as well. It was the "bold experiment".

To begin, how many of you are aware that he was in the fore of treating all people well? He began at Penn state when race issues were boiling all over the south still. He was not a marcher, a protester. He simply did what was right. He did this in many ,many ways. He picked talent and treated them as just that.. talent. YET, he never let the athletes become stars. Penn state jerseys do not, have never (under Paterno, at least), had names of players. They are all part of the team. They all work together, are celebrated as a team or they come down as a team.


When his players got into trouble, he would be the very first to hold them to task. BUT.. it was often in private ways not seen by the public. That was his way.

He was "old school", with a very Italien bent. When he came to recruit players, he went directly to ... the players moms. Player after player talks about how they came home to find him in the kitchen, being fed and chatting with their parents, but particularly their moms. The promises he made differed from most recruiters. He did not promise fancy gimgaws or gaurantees of specific positions. He promised that the boys would get good educations, FIRST. Second, they would be held responsible. In many cases, he promised the moms that the boy would go to church. He promised the boy a chance to FIGHT for the positions.

And, though the "outside" looks at his 409 wins, the people in State College look to his commitment, a REAL commitment to education and integrity. That is why he is celebrated. That is why Robinson came from the pro bowl to speak. It is why the thousands of tickets were ALL gone in 7 minutes of their offering.

Per the last incident, I think the Chairman of Nike put it well. The Failure was not that Paterno did not report. He reported it to the head of campus police and the head of the university in full. The failure was in those people to investigate. AND.. it was very much those people's job, those people's duty to verify. Paterno's failure was in trusting that the people who were more directly trained in this to investigate it as well as THEY should have. Paterno stuck to what he knew and could do.
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Re: Paterno

Postby oVo on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:03 am

Joe Pa was one of the best coaches ever in College Football
and it is unfortunate that his reputation was tarnished by
the one of his subordinates.

It will be nearly impossible for anyone to accomplish what
he did at Penn State in the future.
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Re: Paterno

Postby maasman on Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:10 pm

I agree with everything here. I will never understand why people suddenly reviled him for doing exactly what he was supposed to do. Don't blame him for his subordinates actions, and don't blame him that upper management did nothing.
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Re: Paterno

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:17 pm

What if he was CEO? Would people downplay his past achievements, and by associative thinking (corporations = BAD!), condemn him more vehemently?
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Re: Paterno

Postby oVo on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:37 pm

show: for bbs
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Re: Paterno

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:49 pm

If anyone opens that spoiler, they'll be sued for something egregious! It's only meant for me!! BACK AWAY FROM MY GIFTED SPOILER!!
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Re: Paterno

Postby whitestazn88 on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:16 pm

Joe Pa might as well have fucked those kids himself.
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Re: Paterno

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:48 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:To begin, how many of you are aware that he was in the fore of treating all people well?


huh

PLAYER57832 wrote:He picked talent and treated them as just that.. talent.


whatever it takes for a Rose Bowl invite


PLAYER57832 wrote:Penn state jerseys do not, have never (under Paterno, at least), had names of players.


off the top of my head, neither does SC or Notre Dame and somehow they manage to avoid sexing 9 year olds

PLAYER57832 wrote:When his players got into trouble, he would be the very first to hold them to task.


too bad he didn't hold the coaches to task

PLAYER57832 wrote:When he came to recruit players, he went directly to ... the players moms.


:sick:

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PLAYER57832 wrote:Per the last incident, I think the Chairman of Nike put it well.


like this?

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PLAYER57832 wrote: He reported it to the head of campus police and the head of the university in full.


Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Paterno

Postby gradybridges on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:21 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Per the last incident, I think the Chairman of Nike put it well. The Failure was not that Paterno did not report. He reported it to the head of campus police and the head of the university in full. The failure was in those people to investigate. AND.. it was very much those people's job, those people's duty to verify. Paterno's failure was in trusting that the people who were more directly trained in this to investigate it as well as THEY should have. Paterno stuck to what he knew and could do.

You are naive. Paterno was the king of Penn State. He ran the show and could have stepped in at any time.

For whatever reason Paterno looked the other way. He knew in 2002 about the aligations and still let the man be part of the football team. He probably knew when Sandusky was investigated in 98. Yet he still chose to stick his head in the sand and be a fucking coward. How many kids were molested from 98 to the present? And did he know prior to 98?

The failure was Paterno. the 400+ wins means shit. His graduation rate means shit. his charity means shit. Paterno had the power to stop Sandusky and did nothing.
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Re: Paterno

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:29 am

Five buildings on the Penn State campus are currently named in honor of Joe Paterno.
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Re: Paterno

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:27 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:o begin, how many of you are aware that he was in the fore of treating all people well?


Including young boys?
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Re: Paterno

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:43 am

gradybridges wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Per the last incident, I think the Chairman of Nike put it well. The Failure was not that Paterno did not report. He reported it to the head of campus police and the head of the university in full. The failure was in those people to investigate. AND.. it was very much those people's job, those people's duty to verify. Paterno's failure was in trusting that the people who were more directly trained in this to investigate it as well as THEY should have. Paterno stuck to what he knew and could do.

You are naive. Paterno was the king of Penn State. He ran the show and could have stepped in at any time.

For whatever reason Paterno looked the other way. He knew in 2002 about the aligations and still let the man be part of the football team. He probably knew when Sandusky was investigated in 98. Yet he still chose to stick his head in the sand and be a fucking coward. How many kids were molested from 98 to the present? And did he know prior to 98?

The failure was Paterno. the 400+ wins means shit. His graduation rate means shit. his charity means shit. Paterno had the power to stop Sandusky and did nothing.

Reread what you wrote.

He WAS King, yes. And, for that reason had to be particularly careful about any negativity. Next, note they were allegations. Allegations do not mean guilt. They mean that someone was accused. In retrospect, we now can see that these were real allegations. BUT, put yourself in Paterno's position. How would you react if someone you KNEW were accused of an incredibly heneous act? I hope you would report it! But, would you investigate it yourself? If it were your child.. yes. If it were someone else, maybe not. Maybe not becuase you would be inherently biased AND inherently just not skilled. And note, I mean "biased" not just in perhaps thinking the person innocent, but in having extraordinary anger if you found out there were something real.

Paterno was not an investigator. He grew up, had most of his adult life in a time when these things were only barely whispered about in dark recesses. This was NOT as much to protect the perpetrator.. it was as much about protecting the children involved. For the adult, any such allegation even, no matter how unfounded, could easily derail a career. SO.. Paterno reported this. He reported it to the president (that, BBS is the "CEO" of the school.. and I absolutely hold him responsible). He reported it to security. And then he stood back and TRUSTED that the system would work. I will add that at least one of those to whom he reported has himself spoken repeatedly on appropriate measures to protect children from abuse and reporting. So, Paterno was quite justified in thinking that he had placed the matter into skilled hands.

In RETROSPECT, it is easy to say "he should have known". Well, why? Why would he not trust that Graham Spanier, who is almost an expert on this type of thing would say "hey, let the guy coach, we'll monitor... etc. " Why would Paterno question that? Why would he do anything but think that the head of security would do a thorough job of investigating?

Paterno was a good man, but he was not a God. He was fallibly human.

You can make up your own minds based on 30 second news bites and snippets of information. I have made my decision based on many, many conversations with people.
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Re: Paterno

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:56 am

saxitoxin wrote:[
PLAYER57832 wrote:He picked talent and treated them as just that.. talent.


whatever it takes for a Rose Bowl invite

Tried to google a local story on this, but there is too much Paterno stuff out there now.

I WILL say its interesting you picked a story ran in the UK, not even in the US.

AND.. I let all those of many races and religions who actually KNEW Paterno speak for themselves.
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:When his players got into trouble, he would be the very first to hold them to task.


too bad he didn't hold the coaches to task

He DID. He reported him as soon as he was told there was a problem.... and trusted the investigation.

Contrast that with the graduate assistant who KNEW, first hand, that Sandusky did this and who waited more than a day to even report it... and yet who continued to work with him. I CAN gaurantee that if Paterno were in that position, as a minimum, he would not have continued to work with a guy he knew to be an abuser.

And that is the real key. WE see, because it was broadcast in the media, that there was a lot of evidence, that there was not just one incident, perhaps misconstrued, there was a repeated string of behavior. Did Paterno know all that?
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Re: Paterno

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:00 am

natty_dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:o begin, how many of you are aware that he was in the fore of treating all people well?


Including young boys?

ESPECIALLY young boys.

Paterno was not accused of any harm. He is accused of not, HIMSELF, personally investigating an incident that was reported to him at least a day after the fact. Based on the fact that the guy who witnessed all this continued to work with Sandusky, in the program... I would say there might be legitimate reason, at the time, to think the matter had been resolved sufficiently.

He is blamed for not reporting this to police. In retrospect, in this particular case, we wish he had. However, turn that around. What if Sandusky were NOT guilty? What then? The fact that Paterno reported this would have meant it would be blasted everywhere over the media, would likely not have been kept quiet. Sounds good, now, becuase we know he was guilty. But, at the time, did Paterno? Did he have any reason to suspect that the university president, who has publically taken stances against such things, publically spoken on reporting of incidents, would Paterno expect anything but that that man would appropriately follow through?
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Re: Paterno

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:02 am

Its clear this is turning into a rehash of the incident, rather than a discussion of Paterno's life. I have said all I will in this thread on that.

I made it to talk about Paterno's life, not someone with whom he worked.
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Re: Paterno

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:44 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:He is blamed for not reporting this to police. In retrospect, in this particular case, we wish he had. However, turn that around. What if Sandusky were NOT guilty? What then?


Then, the police would investigate and find no evidence of wrongdoing, and that case would be closed.

PLAYER57832 wrote: The fact that Paterno reported this would have meant it would be blasted everywhere over the media, would likely not have been kept quiet. Sounds good, now, becuase we know he was guilty. But, at the time, did Paterno? Did he have any reason to suspect that the university president, who has publically taken stances against such things, publically spoken on reporting of incidents, would Paterno expect anything but that that man would appropriately follow through?


So it's more important to protect the career of a football couch, than it is to protect an innocent child from being molested?
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Re: Paterno

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:58 am

natty_dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:He is blamed for not reporting this to police. In retrospect, in this particular case, we wish he had. However, turn that around. What if Sandusky were NOT guilty? What then?

Then, the police would investigate and find no evidence of wrongdoing, and that case would be closed.

And why would you assume a local police department is better equipped to deal with this situation? OR, for that matter why would you assume, why would Paterno assume, that the police were not brought in IF there was sufficient evidence?


natty_dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote: The fact that Paterno reported this would have meant it would be blasted everywhere over the media, would likely not have been kept quiet. Sounds good, now, becuase we know he was guilty. But, at the time, did Paterno? Did he have any reason to suspect that the university president, who has publically taken stances against such things, publically spoken on reporting of incidents, would Paterno expect anything but that that man would appropriately follow through?


So it's more important to protect the career of a football couch, than it is to protect an innocent child from being molested?

You are sideswiping the issue, as the media did. The media likes to take down giants, disdains heros.

Paterno DID act to protect the child. He REPORTED it! He put it in the hands of people who WERE in a better position, more highly trained to actually investigate this. Paterno himself was NOT trained to investigate, and given his position, any investigation he attempted would have heavily blurred the situation. If Paterno had gotten involved, it would have gauranteed media involvement. In RETRISPECT, we can say that is bad. I can point to plenty of other cases where folks did the opposite.. went to the media, made a big issue of something BEFORE the facts were out to the detrminent of ALL involved, not just the accused. The FAILURE here was of the investigators. It was not Paterno. Paterno's only "failure" was to trust that people in positions to do the investigating would actually do their jobs. He had no reason to doubt that they would do so reasonably and no reason to doubt their judgement, once put forward.
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Re: Paterno

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:53 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Tried to google a local story on this, but there is too much Paterno stuff out there now.

I WILL say its interesting you picked a story ran in the UK, not even in the US.


You didn't google too hard, then. Here: http://www.thegrio.com/sports/paterno-t ... -state.php

PLAYER57832 wrote:AND.. I let all those of many races and religions who actually KNEW Paterno speak for themselves.


Great. I'll look for their posts in this thread.

PLAYER57832 wrote: He reported him as soon as he was told there was a problem.... and trusted the investigation.


AKA CYA

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PLAYER57832 wrote:He is accused of not, HIMSELF, personally investigating an incident that was reported to him at least a day after the fact. Based on the fact that the guy who witnessed all this continued to work with Sandusky, in the program... I would say there might be legitimate reason, at the time, to think the matter had been resolved sufficiently.


His graduate assistant told him he saw Sandusky forcibly inserting his penis into the rectum of a 10 year old boy. (McQueary didn't say "I saw Sandusky either making soup out of a kid's insides, or, maybe they were just playing checkers!" There was reportedly no ambiguity to what McQueary said to Paterno.) At this point, Paterno knows either:

    (1) he is employing a child rapist (Sandusky)

    (2) he is employing a sick liar prone to making potentially program-destructive sex allegations against other coaches (McQueary)

A rational and moral person would have followed-up to find out which of the only two logical possibilities was the case. If Paterno really thought #2 was the case he is just as indictable for not firing McQueary.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Paterno

Postby oVo on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:14 pm

saxitoxin wrote:His graduate assistant told him he saw Sandusky forcibly inserting his penis into the rectum of a 10 year old boy.

No he didn't. They're trolling you PLAYER, let it go.

Joe Pa's tenure at Penn State is not above scrutiny, but it holds up just fine.
This 2011 scandal is a repugnant failure by the University and not just a
Paterno thing. The Coach is simply the biggest name anyone could attach
to this debacle and it was and is huge news.
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Re: Paterno

Postby DangerBoy on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:24 pm

oVo wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:His graduate assistant told him he saw Sandusky forcibly inserting his penis into the rectum of a 10 year old boy.

No he didn't.

Huh?

He absolutely did according to the grand jury report.
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Re: Paterno

Postby gradybridges on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:29 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:You can make up your own minds based on 30 second news bites and snippets of information. I have made my decision based on many, many conversations with people.

Any of those people the parents of the kids Sandusky raped?

Your statements are unbelievable.

If I'm the HC of a college football team and one of my coaches is accused of molesting boys(and runs a charity for young boys) you bet your ass I'm getting to the bottom of it if only to clear my friend. Sandusky was using Penn State as bait.

you act as if it was one mistake. It was the same mistake EVERY DAY FOR FOR OVER 14 YEARS.
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Re: Paterno

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:36 pm

oVo wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:His graduate assistant told him he saw Sandusky forcibly inserting his penis into the rectum of a 10 year old boy.

No he didn't.


McQueary, a graduate assistant in 2002, says he witnessed Sandusky assaulting a young boy in the locker room showers. He called Paterno, and then went to his home the following day to tell the coach what he’d seen.

Paterno, McQueary said, “slumped back in his chair.” “He said: ‘Well, I’m sorry you had to see that."

[Paterno said] “I didn’t push Mike…because he was very upset. I knew Mike was upset, and I knew some kind of inappropriate action was being taken by Jerry Sandusky with a youngster.”

"I didn't want to interfere with their weekends, (so) either Saturday or Monday, I talked to my boss, Tim Curley, by phone ...

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-footba ... z1knMKed1k

Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Paterno

Postby oVo on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:48 pm

It doesn't say McQuerry told the Head Coach "I watched Sandusky forcibly insert his penis into the boy's rectum" anywhere. I'm guessing that's just the way you personally define an inappropriate action, which is similar to the way I perceive your derailing the subject of this thread as trolling.
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Re: Paterno

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:55 pm

oVo wrote:It doesn't say McQuerry told the Head Coach "I watched Sandusky forcibly insert his penis into the boy's rectum" anywhere. I'm guessing that's just the way you personally define an inappropriate action, which is similar to the way I perceive your derailing the subject of this thread as trolling.


Grand Jury wrote:As the graduate assistant [McQueary] put the sneakers in the locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be 10 years old, with his hands against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky.

http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF


TSN wrote:He [McQueary] called Paterno, and then went to his home the following day to tell the coach what he’d seen.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-footba ... z1knMKed1k
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Paterno

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:59 pm

TGD wrote:There are a number of ways that the "not admitting when you're wrong" posters not admit when they are wrong. A noninclusive list:

(1) Change the subject matter or argument. For example, "No, that's not what I meant... I meant..."
(2) Ignore requests for data, proof, etc. by citing common knowledge or something else. For example, "I can't dig that up now, but it's common knowledge."
(3) Get increasingly hostile or offensive.
(4) Not post again on the subject or ignore the counter-argument. For example, posting random pictures in response.
(5) Turn the point of the discussion from the actual subject matter to the poster him- or herself. For example, "You lack reading comprehension" or "You're Catholic and therefore I'm ignoring your opinion."
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