Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

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Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by pimpdave »

http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03 ... ce-in-war/
by W.

[Editor’s Note: W is an experienced soldier with combat experience in several corners of the world. They are now working as a PMC and cannot reveal their identity due to the possibility of backlash. As they put it, “The military is a very, very tight-knit community.” This article has been edited for style and clarity; no additions or deletions have been made.

W's opinions are, of course, their own.]

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Disclaimer: I am not an academic. I have no education past the age of 16, so my writing may be rough. What I do have is an entire adulthood of military service, which I terminated recently when I decided I wanted more money for doing the same job.

I am a private military contractor, and I have an issue with the depiction of war in videogames — or more specifically, the soldiers in those games.


When I say soldier, let me be clear that I am talking about the Infantryman and the Special Forces operator, as I have next to no knowledge about anything outside of this relatively small percentile of service personnel.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of games featuring the military focus on these frontline combat troops in “realistic” action. And that’s where we get problems.

Imagine a war game where you could only move at a slow walking pace. Imagine Skyrim when your inventory is too full, except you can’t drop any of it. This war game has a prone button like Call of Duty, but your character takes 2-3 seconds to change position. Every time you press it, the animation gets slower because your character becomes more and more tired.

Every mission is set in the same level. They each take 12 hours to complete. Sometimes, absolutely nothing happens. Other times, your lead guy gets blown up and you spend the next hour or so casevac’ing [ed note: casualty evacuating] him while under fire.

Other missions involve you being under fire for the entire patrol. You never see the enemy, just fire at the long grass in front of you as you crawl slowly to some cover. If you get up, you will be cut down within seconds, so this process takes hours. When you reach the enemy compound, if the enemy haven’t run away, dropped their weapons, and are pretending to be farmers, or if you haven’t called in enough ordnance to flatten Mexico, you will kill them in the most horrible way imaginable. That is your incentive.

Only a violent sociopath would play this game.

We do it for real, time and time again, with no other motivation but pay, leave, and the chance to brutalise whomever we deem the “enemy”. This is the lot of the combat soldier.

In military videogames, you tend to get “good guy” characters that are the rough and ready types. The situation may be chaotic, but they crack on with the task in hand to the best of their ability, never let anyone down, and may or may not die in a dramatic fashion. Good, wholesome stuff.

Then there are the Tier 1 types: a more modern iteration that exists thanks to games like Modern Warfare and Medal of Honour. These stone-cold killers speak in clipped monotones, uttering the odd cool one-liner to show that although they are still human, they will never be anything but utterly professional. Both kinds of soldiers end up wrapped up in something bigger than themselves, their missions are always of utmost importance, and every action they take is ultimately justified.

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Good enough for entertainment, but should war be sterilised and glorified in this way? Here is the crux of my beef with the military videogame genre:

None of the stereotypes exist. They are put in place by a media and a military that hates the wars we fight but loves the men fighting in them.

Let me give you an example. I was in Iraq in 2007. Over a 3-month period, we saw some of the bloodiest fighting since the invasion, losing more than ten men and killing hundreds of insurgents. A reporter for a very well-known men’s lifestyle magazine visited us to learn about our experiences. About halfway through his escort, an officer from the military media centre tells him that he is not allowed to speak to us anymore. He has to use stories taken from a non-combat unit earlier that day. It turned out that the officer was appalled at the jovial nature of our recollections; the story in which a vehicle commander sawed two men in half with a mounted machinegun because they were on their phones “dicking” us made him balk in particular.

The journalist took some pictures of us because we looked “warry” and lo and behold, 2 months later, the magazine has an article about some medic that helps local civilians accompanied by pictures of infantrymen in full gear.

This is one of countless ways the military carefully shapes the public opinion of the troops. It’s a shameless PR exercise. One of our guys got a Military Cross (a medal for bravery) awarded after he got shot in the bum and continued to fight. His platoon was isolated on a rooftop with no escape for hours, and there was literally nothing else he could do but fight. This does not make him a hero. It makes him a soldier with a sore bum.

Next time you watch a military documentary, ask yourself why only 3 or 4 men are ever interviewed from a unit. The answer?

The rest of them are like me.

There’s a reason the new guy always gets put on point and nobody really cares when he gets blown up, that so many incidents of collateral damage go unreported, that failed missions are spun into something positive like gathering “valuable intel,” and why only roughly 20% of combat troops ever get PTSD – when if you think about it, it should affect everyone that ever sees combat.

It’s because the vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths.

Heroes are a myth. Every incident I can recall in war that created a hero was either an accident or ended up with said hero in a body bag.

Which makes the “hero” myth a fight of luck versus stupidity, a roll of the dice.

We all make calculated risks in war. Not one of us would make that risk if we genuinely thought it would get us killed.

I’ll say it again. Heroes in a frontline combat context do not exist.

Here is a real scenario that should be put into a game:

A friend of mine came under fire inside a compound. He followed up the shooter, who disappeared into an escape tunnel. My friend followed standard procedure and threw a grenade into the tunnel entrance before following up. When entering the tunnel, he found only the bodies of a woman and a small child, whom the terrorist had used to cover his escape.

When I spoke about it to my friend years later, he recalled how pissed he was at losing the insurgent, and how bad he felt afterwards about it. He’d had his professional pride tarnished. I asked him if he ever thought about the woman and her kid and he just looked at me blankly.

He didn’t even remember they were there.

This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed in videogames. How would you feel if you accidentally killed an innocent child in a game? If the words “MISSION FAILED” appeared, but then disappeared after a few seconds, leaving you to continue as normal with no repercussions. Any normal person would feel guilty, but that’s my point. Combat troops are not normal people.

War is the most horrific, sickening thing mankind can inflict upon itself, fought by and large by uneducated maniacs that have no other place in the world. Videogames have the attention of the youth and can educate as well as entertain. The real horrors need to be made very public to keep the next generation from turning out like us.

My friends and I are not represented anywhere in mass media. People need to realise that their wars are not fought by the guy on the news that lost a leg and loves his flag — he was the FNG [ed: fucking new guy] that got blown up because he was incompetent, who left the fight before it turned him into one of us.

The world needs to be made aware of my kind: the silent majority of fighters, those that do not care about politics, religion, ethics, or anything else other than war for war’s sake.

We are not our forefathers. We were not conscripted. We know the dangers. We are not naïve and we are very real.

But I’m sure everyone would rather watch Captain Price stab another faceless goon in the neck whilst chasing the big bad all over the world again.

One last thought: My psychologist estimated that roughly 80% of infantrymen have an undiagnosed violent personality disorder. These aren’t hard stats, but’s it’s interesting when compared to the 20% that suffer from PTSD.

I am perfectly sane, but as the psychiatrist said to me before referring me to a psychologist:

“You’re probably just a complete bastard.”

A true assessment.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Great link, pimpdave. Everyone should read this and understand it.





[Added emphasis]
Spoiler
There’s a reason the new guy always gets put on point and nobody really cares when he gets blown up, that so many incidents of collateral damage go unreported, that failed missions are spun into something positive like gathering “valuable intel,” and why only roughly 20% of combat troops ever get PTSD – when if you think about it, it should affect everyone that ever sees combat.

It’s because the vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths.

Heroes are a myth. Every incident I can recall in war that created a hero was either an accident or ended up with said hero in a body bag.
....

War is the most horrific, sickening thing mankind can inflict upon itself, fought by and large by uneducated maniacs that have no other place in the world. Videogames have the attention of the youth and can educate as well as entertain. The real horrors need to be made very public to keep the next generation from turning out like us.

My friends and I are not represented anywhere in mass media. People need to realise that their wars are not fought by the guy on the news that lost a leg and loves his flag — he was the FNG [ed: fucking new guy] that got blown up because he was incompetent, who left the fight before it turned him into one of us.

The world needs to be made aware of my kind: the silent majority of fighters, those that do not care about politics, religion, ethics, or anything else other than war for war’s sake.
...

I am perfectly sane, but as the psychiatrist said to me before referring me to a psychologist:

“You’re probably just a complete bastard.”

A true assessment.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by thegreekdog »

Good article. Thanks PD.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by shieldgenerator7 »

tl dr. Nice to see you back PD
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Frigidus »

He's completely right about war as portrayed in video games being wildly inaccurate, but I wouldn't limit it to only video games. Movies and books often simplify the military experience for the sake of pacing in the same way. I definitely agree with what's said in the article, but I just so often see video games being the punching bag that people take out their frustration with culture at large on.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by thegreekdog »

I read it again and I wonder whether the author is suggesting that the soldiers are sociopaths when they get there or are sociopaths once they leave. I suspect the latter.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by BigBallinStalin »

I think people, who are sociopaths, are just sociopaths no matter what they do. Maybe one can show symptoms of antisocial personality disorder after continual traumatic events, but that doesn't mean that they're a sociopath. I don't think psychologists even officially recognize the term "sociopath." [/talking out of my butt]

So based on my previous guesses, I think the author was saying that sociopaths are attracted to that line of work, which explains why so few of them suffer from PTSD (roughly 20%). Also, I hear people fudge their psychological evaluations, so they can obtain more money. This distorts the data.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Haggis_McMutton »

Based on these quotes, it seems to me he's saying the war makes them sociopaths. Though he'd probably say a fait number of sociopaths are attracted to the job as well.
Next time you watch a military documentary, ask yourself why only 3 or 4 men are ever interviewed from a unit. The answer?

The rest of them are like me.
My friends and I are not represented anywhere in mass media. People need to realise that their wars are not fought by the guy on the news that lost a leg and loves his flag — he was the FNG [ed: fucking new guy] that got blown up because he was incompetent, who left the fight before it turned him into one of us.

It's an interesting read, but I'm wary of accepting what he says just based on this one piece.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by thegreekdog »

I've never seen a modern war documentary. I've seen plenty of WWII documentaries, but the former soldiers are in their 80s and 90s in these interviews and seem more sad than anything else.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Haggis_McMutton »

thegreekdog wrote:I've never seen a modern war documentary. I've seen plenty of WWII documentaries, but the former soldiers are in their 80s and 90s in these interviews and seem more sad than anything else.
The closest I've ever seen was Generation Kill.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by thegreekdog »

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I've never seen a modern war documentary. I've seen plenty of WWII documentaries, but the former soldiers are in their 80s and 90s in these interviews and seem more sad than anything else.
The closest I've ever seen was Generation Kill.
On my list. I believe someone I went to college was in this (or wrote about it or something).
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by DirtyDishSoap »

thegreekdog wrote:I read it again and I wonder whether the author is suggesting that the soldiers are sociopaths when they get there or are sociopaths once they leave. I suspect the latter.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by thegreekdog »

DirtyDishSoap wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I read it again and I wonder whether the author is suggesting that the soldiers are sociopaths when they get there or are sociopaths once they leave. I suspect the latter.
Former.
Interesting.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by DirtyDishSoap »

I'll keep it brief.

It's a mindset you either get into before or during. If you don't you're considered an idiot and fill sand bags.

We joke about stuff that would probably offend %90 and the other %10 would be disgusted. It's pretty much how we get through day by day.

If you go through a year in a shit hole...That literally smells as such, in a 3rd world country where roughly %75 of the population truly hates your guts, and you're infantry/SF or something considered front lines...You're going to go to a place in your head that nobody will understand other then the guys you're with.

Least that's my take on it...I have a hard time relating to my family since non of them are military and I can understand the man that wrote this %100 of the way.

It's almost a very unnatural connection.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Commander62890 »

I'm not sure video games are the right media for accurately portraying warfare.

Movies? Sure. Books? Definitely. I love The Things They Carried.

But, I sure as hell don't want to play a video game that's boring and slow.

On the other hand... I would love for them to better capture the meaninglessness and pure insanity of warfare...
For example: "Patrol went up the mountain. One man came back. He died before he could tell us what happened (Herr)."
I would to see happen in a video game... and have it forever remains a mystery. Stuff like that.

No government bullshit; no morality; just senseless, meaningless death, and the effects of trauma on a soldier.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by DirtyDishSoap »

Commander62890 wrote:I'm not sure video games are the right media for accurately portraying warfare.

Movies? Sure. Books? Definitely. I love The Things They Carried.

But, I sure as hell don't want to play a video game that's boring and slow.

On the other hand... I would love for them to better capture the meaninglessness and pure insanity of warfare...
For example: "Patrol went up the mountain. One man came back. He died before he could tell us what happened (Herr)."
I would to see happen in a video game... and have it forever remains a mystery. Stuff like that.

No government bullshit; no morality; just senseless, meaningless death, and the effects of trauma on a soldier.
You're pretty much missing the point in that whole post that man posted. Either read it or re-read it and take a minute to think about what he said.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by TA1LGUNN3R »

I only personally know one guy who was in Iraq and Afghanistan; my roommate's brother was an interrogator for the Army. From the stories I've heard it was pretty similar to the OP. I guess you could say he treated it more like any other job; I don't think he was malicious or "sociopathic," but yeah, it's a fucking war and people shoot at you for no other reason than having a uniform on, so you get callous.

I remember he called my roommate one morning, and he just recounted how his unit was ambushed while they were just driving around in a tank all nonchalant-like, as if it was a regular occurrence. I'd a probably shit my pants, but y'know, whatev.

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edit: I do recall he said one time that he had a lot of anger when he was in that resolved itself when he got out.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Commander62890 »

DirtyDishSoap wrote:You're pretty much missing the point in that whole post that man posted. Either read it or re-read it and take a minute to think about what he said.
Okay, I looked back on it.

He believes that video game portrayal of warfare glorifies war, and ingrains people with the wrong messages about it.

I would counter that video games are for fun... if you want a more realistic picture, watch a film/documentary, or read a book.

I don't want my video game being akin to real warfare... it would never be able to capture the true feeling, so it's pointless.

There's plenty of other ways in which war is glorified... it's an epidemic in our country.
But, making a video game boring is not the answer.

Plus, with video games, you have to take into account what the market wants... people want to feel like they're working toward something worthwhile when they play a game. If you made a video game's campaign pointless, it wouldn't sell as well.

The problem is with our government, society and culture, and I'm just not sure video games are the right way to institute such a significant alteration of the masses' perception of war.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Commander62890 wrote:I'm not sure video games are the right media for accurately portraying warfare.

Movies? Sure. Books? Definitely. I love The Things They Carried.

But, I sure as hell don't want to play a video game that's boring and slow.
This reminds me. I vaguely recall talking to some war veteran about that book, which we both have read. He said that Tim O'Brien is a pussy; he couldn't hack it.

Maybe Tim O'Brien wasn't a sociopath?

Maybe he was too emotional for the front lines and couldn't find a way to cope about it (i.e. he couldn't "joke about stuff that would probably offend %90 and the other %10 would be disgusted")?


That book fails to portray war accurately and can't be applied to all soldiers' experiences because it's only from one guy's point of view. All that book says is, "I'm Tim O'Brien, this is how the Vietnam War affected me, and this is how I felt about it at that time and how I feel about it 30 years later." To be fair, the veteran who I talked to said that maybe he'd feel the same as Tim O'Brien did later in life, who knows.

Based on my discussion, I think the author of the OP-article is correct.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by DirtyDishSoap »

Commander62890 wrote:
DirtyDishSoap wrote:You're pretty much missing the point in that whole post that man posted. Either read it or re-read it and take a minute to think about what he said.
Okay, I looked back on it.

He believes that video game portrayal of warfare glorifies war, and ingrains people with the wrong messages about it.

I would counter that video games are for fun... if you want a more realistic picture, watch a film/documentary, or read a book.

I don't want my video game being akin to real warfare... it would never be able to capture the true feeling, so it's pointless.

There's plenty of other ways in which war is glorified... it's an epidemic in our country.
But, making a video game boring is not the answer.

Plus, with video games, you have to take into account what the market wants... people want to feel like they're working toward something worthwhile when they play a game. If you made a video game's campaign pointless, it wouldn't sell as well.

The problem is with our government, society and culture, and I'm just not sure video games are the right way to institute such a significant alteration of the masses' perception of war.
Well if video game developers and movie directors are aiming for realism then yeah it'd be boring and not action packed. My generation I simply lost hoped when about half of those kids are asking me if its anything like call of duty. I can only assume someone asked that guy that same question and out struck a nerve.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by pimpdave »

Video games being entertainment and recruiting tools for the military aren't mutually exclusive.

Guess what's been number one at the box office in the US for two weeks now? Act of Valor, originally shot as a recruitment film and later edited to include scenes of bad guys being bad to expand it to feature length.
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Commander62890 »

BigBallinStalin wrote: This reminds me. I vaguely recall talking to some war veteran about that book, which we both have read. He said that Tim O'Brien is a pussy; he couldn't hack it.

Maybe Tim O'Brien wasn't a sociopath?

Maybe he was too emotional for the front lines and couldn't find a way to cope about it (i.e. he couldn't "joke about stuff that would probably offend %90 and the other %10 would be disgusted")?

That book fails to portray war accurately and can't be applied to all soldiers' experiences because it's only from one guy's point of view. All that book says is, "I'm Tim O'Brien, this is how the Vietnam War affected me, and this is how I felt about it at that time and how I feel about it 30 years later." To be fair, the veteran who I talked to said that maybe he'd feel the same as Tim O'Brien did later in life, who knows
Fair enough... I wouldn't know how accurate that book's portrayal of war is... all I know is, it gave me the same impression of warfare and its impact on a soldier that I'm reading in the OP. It's impossible to ever truly understand what it's like for them, but - and please forgive me if I'm wrong - I think it's possible to at least get some small sense of the way in war operates and how it affects soldiers.

Trust me, I don't mean to offend anyone, especially the vets. You guys have it rough, both during combat and after you come home. I just think that some of the things I've learned give me a slightly heightened knowledge than your average civilian, and I would attribute that to books like The Things They Carried. O'Brien's POV may be unique, but I like to imagine it helps give me a better sense of what you guys have to go through, mentally and physically... especially when you come home.
DirtyDishSoap wrote: My generation I simply lost hoped when about half of those kids are asking me if its anything like call of duty. I can only assume someone asked that guy that same question and out struck a nerve.
This is something I can completely sympathize with; I'm sure that type of this must be pretty upsetting.
I guess I'm not at all in touch with the way in which video games can create distorted perceptions... if kids really believe that what they see in CoD is accurate, that's fucked up.


HUGE EDIT: f*ck, you guys were right... I didn't read the OP carefully enough. It's nothing like what I've been saying!
I missed the main point of the OP - that most soldiers aren't just de-sensitized to inhumane cruelty - they're full-blown sociopaths.
Let me ponder this for a little bit, and then I'll get back to you.

Sorry for the confusion. :oops:
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by Commander62890 »

Okay, now I understand.

What I got from O'Brien and Herr is that men like the OP are the exception, rather than the norm. Those "Green Berets" from The Things They Carried, and those "Long-Range Recon Patrol" from Dispatches - those guys are like the OP. Fucked-up beyond all recognition... yes, now I see it. The main difference between the OP and O'Brien/Herr is that the latter believe that your average "grunt" is fundamentally different from men like the OP. The majority of soldiers are de-sensitized to cruelty, but they can still feel... they're not completely inhuman. That's is the key difference between the two viewpoints.

Now... there's absolutely NO WAY I could ever figure out the truth on my own. What do you believe?
Are most soldiers turned into senseless, brutal killers, devoid of any deep emotion? Are they all monsters, inside-and-out, through-and through? Or, is this a small minority, primarily - though, by no means solely - composed of special forces/recon-type troops?
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by pimpdave »

Hey, Commander, O'Brien didn't serve in an all-volunteer army. There were draftees.
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DirtyDishSoap
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Re: Call of Apathy: Violent Young Men and Our Place in War

Post by DirtyDishSoap »

Commander62890 wrote:Okay, now I understand.

What I got from O'Brien and Herr is that men like the OP are the exception, rather than the norm. Those "Green Berets" from The Things They Carried, and those "Long-Range Recon Patrol" from Dispatches - those guys are like the OP. Fucked-up beyond all recognition... yes, now I see it. The main difference between the OP and O'Brien/Herr is that the latter believe that your average "grunt" is fundamentally different from men like the OP. The majority of soldiers are de-sensitized to cruelty, but they can still feel... they're not completely inhuman. That's is the key difference between the two viewpoints.

Now... there's absolutely NO WAY I could ever figure out the truth on my own. What do you believe?
Are most soldiers turned into senseless, brutal killers, devoid of any deep emotion? Are they all monsters, inside-and-out, through-and through? Or, is this a small minority, primarily - though, by no means solely - composed of special forces/recon-type troops?
Nope, were simply men and women like you that just have a different mind set.
Occasionaly we get a sick f*ck but that's very few and far between.
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