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If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Business...

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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:yes, birth control pills are now "medical care" and "women issues". Heck, they even had some political plant get in front of a phony congressional hearing and say "I know a girl who died because she couldn't get birth control"

This is about the left making the 2012 election about social issues, and we are already seeing just how far they are willing to bend perception in an attempt to make it reality. Except that phat f*ck keeps showing people how they cram the rabbit into the hat backstage, foiling the elitists plans!


Birth control pills are regularly prescribed for medical issues other than as contraceptives. And, incidentally, are covered by most insurance, including insurance plans provided by religious instituions.

WHICH IS WHY THIS IS A MOOT ISSUE!
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:11 pm

Anyone else notice how much political rhetoric player has been injecting in her posts?

Why is this happening?
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:55 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:And this issue has exactly NOTHING to do with medical care. As the liberals are quick to point out, approximately 98% of people use or have used some form of contraception. This means there is NOT a lack of access to contraception.

Well, right now, insurance is mandated to cover this, plus states cover it. Even so, while a high percentage of women use it at some time in their life, you neglect the part where women get estrogen for many, many reasons. I took it for several years because of essessive pain and bleeding, though I was not sexual active at the time. Later, I had to take progesterone, which has at some points also been considered "birth control", so that I would not miscarry my sons. Older women commonly have to take such supplements during pregnancies.

And while I have cited my own personal history because I am not legally allowed to cite other people's medical histories, i assure you I am very far from alone.

So, again.... GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT before voicing and opinion on this!

Oh look, legitimate medical issues for needing prescriptions that could otherwise be used as contraceptives. Oh look also, they're already covered under insurance. Oh yeah, this has NOTHING to do with the current debate of providing prescriptions for free for the sole use of contraception. It's a distraction to get the dumb masses on your side by lumping in things that are currently covered with things that are not. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, if the prescription is being used for actual medical issues, that IS covered by insurance. Even insurance provided by religious organizations. In light of those facts, it becomes clear that this issue is only an assault on religious freedoms in order to give the government the power to unconstitutionally prohibit the free exercise of religion.

NO, this is poppycock. You have made this claim, but it is not the truth. The truth is that it will be up to women to justify to insurance companies that they need this.. and, because there is no longer a mandate for coverage, many plain won't get it.

Maybe if MORE medicines and treatments were justified as to why they were needed and if they're the cheapest option in the market that will still do the job, we wouldn't see the constant increases in insurance costs that we do now. But that would be a free market principle, which we can't have any of in our move to big-government control of health care and every other market.
By the way, since this is a fact so I know you will dismiss or distort it, but if the government did not mandate contraceptive coverage, how did 95-98% of the population have access to contraceptives? How will that change if this new mandate is NOT put in place? Under your logic, women will suddenly lose all contraceptive coverage, whether it's used for birth control or medical issues. If this is not the case before the mandate was written, why would it be the case after the mandate is rescinded? My guess would be because this has absolutely nothing to do with women's health and everything to do with more governmental power and infringement on our rights.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Also, hormones are one of those drugs that cannot always be substituted in generic version because even very, very tiny differences can matter a lot. Now insurance covers it all, but they won't any longer.

See above. But if they're covering it before the mandate, why would it suddenly disappear? Of course, that's liberal logic for you.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby kentington on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:35 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Anyone else notice how much political rhetoric player has been injecting in her posts?

Why is this happening?

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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Lootifer on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:42 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
natty dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:If What Goes on in other People' Bedroom is None of My Business...Then neither is the contraception methods, supplies, or the consequences of what goes on in other people's bedroom.


Ok... so let me see if I'm reading this right.

You're saying that if you don't get to dictate the sexual habits of other people, then... what, you don't get to dictate the contraception methods of other people either? You know what, I actually agree. You don't get to dictate either.

Yeh but you are missing the next step where he says that encouraging safe sex, therefore, should be eliminated.


thats ridiculous. I strongly encourage safe sex.

So you are ok with state funded contraceptives (aka subsidies etc).
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby john9blue on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:01 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:thats ridiculous. I strongly encourage safe sex.

So you are ok with state funded contraceptives (aka subsidies etc).


this is interesting.

you equate "i hope other people do X" with "i want to take other people's money by force in order to allow other people to do X"
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Lootifer on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:25 pm

john9blue wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:thats ridiculous. I strongly encourage safe sex.

So you are ok with state funded contraceptives (aka subsidies etc)?


this is interesting.

you equate "i hope other people do X" with "i want to take other people's money by force in order to allow other people to do X"

Not at all, I am looking at the context of the argument; we are debating state intervention in providing contraception.

edit: I meant to ask "so you are ok..." as a question as fixed above
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:11 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:thats ridiculous. I strongly encourage safe sex.

So you are ok with state funded contraceptives (aka subsidies etc).


I don't follow how encouraging safe sex automatically goes to encouraging state funded contraceptives.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Lootifer on Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:59 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:thats ridiculous. I strongly encourage safe sex.

So you are ok with state funded contraceptives (aka subsidies etc).


I don't follow how encouraging safe sex automatically goes to encouraging state funded contraceptives.

Read the post above, I meant it as a question, apologies/
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Aradhus on Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:11 pm

14 pages of back and forth, fascinating. Wall me if this topic has changed your position on the issue.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:33 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:thats ridiculous. I strongly encourage safe sex.

So you are ok with state funded contraceptives (aka subsidies etc).


I don't follow how encouraging safe sex automatically goes to encouraging state funded contraceptives.

Read the post above, I meant it as a question, apologies/


I don't think we need the government to do things for people that could and should be doing for themselves.

It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:09 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant


That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Lootifer on Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:41 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant


That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.

I just deleted a massive rant. Why? Because you're probably right. Let them suffer in the short term; let them make stupid decisions and pay for it; let your crony capitalism that has a foothold, power and desire to remain carry on unfetted as you push for more free markets against those who compound social returns at a much higher rate than mere finacial returns, thus perpetuating status quo; Good day sir.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Symmetry on Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:47 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant


That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.


An interesting argument, that government should be in the business of allowing people to make as many mistakes and poor decisions as possible so that they learn from them. Kind of a paternalistic view of the state, no? Where citizens are not adult members of the community, but children who need to be taught a lesson by the patrician elites?

Of course, they will be taught the error of their ways, even if it means a bit more homelessness, undernourishment, higher rates of infant fatality, poverty... eventually, hopefully before they die young, they will be thankful that you're helping them understand their poor decisions.

At least it will shift the horrific burden the middle class has been shouldering for far to long. The long nightmare of helping others might finally be over.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Night Strike on Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:53 pm

Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant


That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.

I just deleted a massive rant. Why? Because you're probably right. Let them suffer in the short term; let them make stupid decisions and pay for it; let your crony capitalism that has a foothold, power and desire to remain carry on unfetted as you push for more free markets against those who compound social returns at a much higher rate than mere finacial returns, thus perpetuating status quo; Good day sir.


Crony capitalism only exists because of how big the government is. If the government weren't picking winners and losers in the marketplace and constantly changing the rules of how to do business, you could see the free market work as it was intended. Crony capitalism is one of the exact problems that is rooted in big government yet people want the government to come in and "fix".
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Symmetry on Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:55 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant


That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.

I just deleted a massive rant. Why? Because you're probably right. Let them suffer in the short term; let them make stupid decisions and pay for it; let your crony capitalism that has a foothold, power and desire to remain carry on unfetted as you push for more free markets against those who compound social returns at a much higher rate than mere finacial returns, thus perpetuating status quo; Good day sir.


Crony capitalism only exists because of how big the government is. If the government weren't picking winners and losers in the marketplace and constantly changing the rules of how to do business, you could see the free market work as it was intended. Crony capitalism is one of the exact problems that is rooted in big government yet people want the government to come in and "fix".


I've seen the same argument for communism too many times to buy into that line of thinking. Basically, you're saying free markets would work if nobody took advantage of the system, and politics didn't exist.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Night Strike on Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:59 pm

Symmetry wrote:I've seen the same argument for communism too many times to buy into that line of thinking. Basically, you're saying it would work if nobody took advantage of the system.


No, you use the government to actually punish the people who break laws (ponzi schemes, embezzlement, dangerous workplaces, violate patents, etc.). You do NOT use the government to pick which industries succeed and which ones fail. You do NOT use the government to pass massive, arbitrary regulations that benefit the large companies while artificially pricing the small ones out of the marketplace.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Symmetry on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:06 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I've seen the same argument for communism too many times to buy into that line of thinking. Basically, you're saying it would work if nobody took advantage of the system.


No, you use the government to actually punish the people who break laws (ponzi schemes, embezzlement, dangerous workplaces, violate patents, etc.). You do NOT use the government to pick which industries succeed and which ones fail. You do NOT use the government to pass massive, arbitrary regulations that benefit the large companies while artificially pricing the small ones out of the marketplace.


And how would this fantasy scheme actually be implemented? A single Free Market party, with a delegate list of ideological purity from which citizens can cast their vote? Crony Capitalist delegates disallowed?

Sounds like communism, again.

You're arguing for a system that goes against human nature, and yet you seem to have absolute faith will work, as long as everybody acts according to plan.
Last edited by Symmetry on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Night Strike on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:24 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I've seen the same argument for communism too many times to buy into that line of thinking. Basically, you're saying it would work if nobody took advantage of the system.


No, you use the government to actually punish the people who break laws (ponzi schemes, embezzlement, dangerous workplaces, violate patents, etc.). You do NOT use the government to pick which industries succeed and which ones fail. You do NOT use the government to pass massive, arbitrary regulations that benefit the large companies while artificially pricing the small ones out of the marketplace.


And how would this fantasy scheme actually be implemented? A single Free Market party, with a delegate list of ideological purity from which citizens can cast their vote? Crony Capitalist delegates disallowed?

Sounds like communism, again.


That's why the citizenry is responsible for electing moral and upright individuals who will follow the Constitution. And even moreso, they need to quickly replace anyone who goes against the Constitution.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:27 pm

Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.

I just deleted a massive rant. Why? Because you're probably right. Let them suffer in the short term; let them make stupid decisions and pay for it; let your crony capitalism that has a foothold, power and desire to remain carry on unfetted as you push for more free markets against those who compound social returns at a much higher rate than mere finacial returns, thus perpetuating status quo; Good day sir.


I'm glad you deleted that section, but to be clear, PS and I's stance would lead to the reduction of crony capitalism. Since the crony capitalists use the state as the means to restrict competition (among other actions), then the logical conclusion is to reduce the state's scope of authority.

I'd argue that very many well-intended public policies tend to cause and prolong the suffering which we see today.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Symmetry on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I've seen the same argument for communism too many times to buy into that line of thinking. Basically, you're saying it would work if nobody took advantage of the system.


No, you use the government to actually punish the people who break laws (ponzi schemes, embezzlement, dangerous workplaces, violate patents, etc.). You do NOT use the government to pick which industries succeed and which ones fail. You do NOT use the government to pass massive, arbitrary regulations that benefit the large companies while artificially pricing the small ones out of the marketplace.


And how would this fantasy scheme actually be implemented? A single Free Market party, with a delegate list of ideological purity from which citizens can cast their vote? Crony Capitalist delegates disallowed?

Sounds like communism, again.


That's why the citizenry is responsible for electing moral and upright individuals who will follow the Constitution. And even moreso, they need to quickly replace anyone who goes against the Constitution.


Sounds much like the talk of early Communist revolutionaries. The citizens will decide! Only true comrades, moral and upright will be chosen by the will of the people. Those who are not moral and upright will be... "replaced".

Be wary NS, the first victims of the free market revolution will be... ah I think you get the point.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby Lootifer on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:35 pm

Oh that's right, the Free Market removes barriers to entry as well, how silly of me (directed at both NS and BBS).
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:50 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
It really is no wonder how society keeps discovering all kinds of new problems when we remove our need to be responsible for our actions and live more and more carefree lives and don't have to worry about making the wrong decisions anymore, therefore not knowing why the decision was wrong nor learning a lesson on why not to make the incorrect choice again, and that has an impact on the next generation as well. Just a general rant


That's a rant I strongly agree with.


Many well-intended public policies prevent the trial-and-error process which enables individuals to learn from their mistakes or from the mistakes of others. Those policies also subsidize the costs of making poor decisions. (If you want more of something, then subsidize it...).

Besides, these policies tend to create more problems which enable politicians and rent-seekers more opportunities to intervene, thus enriching themselves under the guise of acting for the "common" good. Many people lose sight of the ultimate cause which contributes to this ongoing chain of problems. That original cause was state intervention, to which many people unfortunately appeal.


An interesting argument, that government should be in the business of allowing people to make as many mistakes and poor decisions as possible so that they learn from them. Kind of a paternalistic view of the state, no? Where citizens are not adult members of the community, but children who need to be taught a lesson by the patrician elites?


Paternalism is the idea of dictating how people should live. It doesn't allow; it directs.

My stance advocates that the "patrician elite" be removed from their state-granted authority to direct human action. How is that paternalistic? It isn't.

To be clear, I don't claim to know how people should live their lives; therefore, I won't be in the business of appealing to the state so that it can decide how adults should behave. These decisions should be left to the decision-makers in their particular circumstance of time and place. The institutions and individuals will guide themselves without the perceived "necessity" of state intervention.


Symmetry wrote:Of course, they will be taught the error of their ways, even if it means a bit more homelessness, undernourishment, higher rates of infant fatality, poverty... eventually, hopefully before they die young, they will be thankful that you're helping them understand their poor decisions.

At least it will shift the horrific burden the middle class has been shouldering for far to long. The long nightmare of helping others might finally be over.


That's an interesting story, but you've limited it to a small portion of possible outcomes and have overlooked the long-run.

My stance does not deny the fact that you can still choose to be paternalistic help others. My stance is leveled at the state. The state and an individual's freedom to help others are two different things. If you see someone suffering, you can voluntary dedicate your own resources to the problem. Let your morals be expressed by your own actions, but certainly not through the appeal to the state.
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:55 pm

Lootifer wrote:Oh that's right, the Free Market removes barriers to entry as well, how silly of me (directed at both NS and BBS).


What do you mean?
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Re: If What Goes on in People' Bedroom is None of My Busines

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:55 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I've seen the same argument for communism too many times to buy into that line of thinking. Basically, you're saying it would work if nobody took advantage of the system.


No, you use the government to actually punish the people who break laws (ponzi schemes, embezzlement, dangerous workplaces, violate patents, etc.). You do NOT use the government to pick which industries succeed and which ones fail. You do NOT use the government to pass massive, arbitrary regulations that benefit the large companies while artificially pricing the small ones out of the marketplace.


And how would this fantasy scheme actually be implemented? A single Free Market party, with a delegate list of ideological purity from which citizens can cast their vote? Crony Capitalist delegates disallowed?

Sounds like communism, again.


That's why the citizenry is responsible for electing moral and upright individuals who will follow the Constitution. And even moreso, they need to quickly replace anyone who goes against the Constitution.


Sounds much like the talk of early Communist revolutionaries. The citizens will decide! Only true comrades, moral and upright will be chosen by the will of the people. Those who are not moral and upright will be... "replaced".

Be wary NS, the first victims of the free market revolution will be... ah I think you get the point.


I'm not sure what NS is, but libertarianism rejects the means which Communists use in order to achieve their political goals.
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