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Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:27 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plu ... _blog.html

Yesterday’s big topic at the Court was over whether there’s some kind of “limiting principle” that would allow the government to enforce a mandate but would also draw lines against other government exercises of power that presumably would infringe on liberty.

But this is the wrong debate.

This whole discussion is rooted in a Tea Party or libertarian version of the Constitution that’s hogwash. The Constitution of the United States was not written to limit government, in either a historical or theoretical sense. That’s not what it was primarily about. The Constitution was written to create government, and to create government power.

It is true, of course, that Lockean ideas did at least partially influence the Framers. So it’s fair to say that they did care about limits to government. But they were also influenced by republican ideas that suggested a vigorous role for government — and by the practical problems that the incredibly limited government was causing, at least as they saw it.

The solution to the question of how to limit government power even while creating and encouraging it, as James Madison explained in Federalist 51, was separated institutions sharing powers. Government would be limited and tyranny prevented because the House, the Senate, the president, the courts, and the states would all compete with each other for influence, thus, Madison hoped, preventing any of them from dominating the rest and, with it, the nation. But what “tyranny” consists of is mostly not defined by Madison or the other Framers.

What the Framers developed was a democracy, and it’s in the democratic process that we decide what government should and shouldn’t do — and can and can’t do. Of course this takes interpretation of the Constitution — but that, too, is resolved by the democratic process.

What does all of this say about the “limiting principle”?

The group who needs a limiting principle, it seems to me, are the Court’s conservatives. At least, they need one if they want to knock out the health law without knocking out the entire New Deal. Important components of the New Deal — such as the minimum wage — are justified by current interpretation of the Commerce Clause. If the court decides to eliminate the health law by returning to the pre-New Deal understanding of the Commerce Clause, then the constitutional justification for all sorts of laws and programs would be threatened.

In asking for a limiting principle, Conservatives say they are demanding justification for why the law would not invite broccoli tyranny. But what they’re really looking for is a principle to knock down the health law without looking as if they’re undermining the rationale for much of the New Deal.

What liberals should be saying is: We don’t need a limiting principle, beyond the structure of the government of the United States. Liberals should demand that we put our trust in the limiting principle Madison came up with: we’ll avoid tyranny because our political system makes it awfully hard for anyone to tyrannize anyone else. We don’t need to be concerned about “the government” forcing everyone to eat broccoli because the government is the House and the Senate and the president and the courts and the rest of it, and they aren’t going to manage to agree on something obscure or crazy or silly most of the time because they have a really hard time even managing to agree on simple and popular stuff. And if they do pass something crazy, then you can have an election, toss them out, and get it repealed.

The Court conservatives cannot knock out the mandate, and retain the New Deal, and be consistent. They can have only any two of those at once. The consistency part of it may be a problem for them if they care about their reputation with lawyers, or with those who care about principles and standards and such. But they’re free under the constitution to act in what’s basically a partisan fashion — we tend to like our judges and justices to be all pure and nonpolitical, but they’re under no obligation to do that. If they want some principled way to keep health reform without tossing plenty more? They’re mostly out of luck.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:21 pm

No wonder why you got this from an opinion page: it's mostly untrue.

1. The most glaring mistake (which discounts his whole piece) is that he believes the Framers set up a democracy. They definitely did not. We have a republic and is governed by the rule of law, neither of which are true in a democracy. In a democracy, whatever the majority says is what the rest of us get. (Although in this case, the majority is correct in saying the mandate is wrong.)

2. The author presumes that the Constitution ONLY sets up the government without limiting it. The Constitution can and does do both. No one can read the Constitution and not recognize that it contains fairly specific tasks the government is responsible for doing and others that it absolutely cannot do. The Framers saw that the VERY limited government provided by the Articles of Confederation was not sufficient to hold the union together, so they designed a new governmental model that held marginally more powers, mostly just the ones that the Articles did not provide. They NEVER intended the government to become the monstrosity that it is today precisely because of the limited and narrow authority that they granted to the federal government. The state governments were supposed to be the big governments with the federal government being as small as necessary to hold the union together.

3. The New Deal and Social Security WERE ruled as unconstitutional when they were passed. But when FDR threatened to pack the court with his progressives, the Court acquiesced and allowed the programs to continue.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:27 pm

I was going to respond to the OP, but Night Strike covered the bases pretty well. The Constitution both creates and limits the federal government. Sorry.
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Re: Lefty blogger idiot lies about the US Constitution

Postby Doc_Brown on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:54 pm

I think the author of that article neglected to read the 10th amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Supreme Court Case United States v. Darby, 312 U.S. 100, 124 (1941) reads in part (referring to the 10th Amendment):
"The amendment states but a truism that all is retained which has not been surrendered. There is nothing in the history of its adoption to suggest that it was more than declaratory of the relationship between the national and state governments as it had been established by the Constitution before the amendment or that its purpose was other than to allay fears that the new national government might seek to exercise powers not granted, and that the states might not be able to exercise fully their reserved powers."

Also, see James Madison:
"I find, from looking into the amendments proposed by the State conventions, that several are particularly anxious that it should be declared in the Constitution, that the powers not therein delegated should be reserved to the several States. Perhaps words which may define this more precisely than the whole of the instrument now does, may be considered as superfluous. I admit they may be deemed unnecessary: but there can be no harm in making such a declaration, if gentlemen will allow that the fact is as stated. I am sure I understand it so, and do therefore propose it."
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Re: Lefty blogger idiot lies about the US Constitution

Postby Doc_Brown on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:55 pm

I propose that this thread be re-titled as "Lefty blogger idiot lies about the US Constitution."
Last edited by Doc_Brown on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:56 pm

Plus, you know, there's the whole context of history thing. In other words, the Constitution was written when the writers were concerned with most recently being under the rule of a centralized government.

EDIT - I also think that at least two of the justices, and probably more, would love to rule the New Deal unconstitutional.
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Re: Lefty blogger idiot lies about the US Constitution

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:58 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:I propose that this thread be re-titled as "Lefty blogger idiot lies about the US Constitution."


You can typically substitute "lefty blogger" for most of the times pimpdave uses "tea party". Just get used to it.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:05 pm

thegreekdog wrote:EDIT - I also think that at least two of the justices, and probably more, would love to rule the New Deal unconstitutional.


Considering it was originally ruled as unconstitutional, I would like to think it would be a 9-0 decision against the New Deal.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Symmetry on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:09 pm

I don't understand this thread. Why does the title keep changing?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Tea Party Death Squad Lies To CC

Postby Neoteny on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm

Because the Tea Party is a devious and dishonest organization that will lie to your face and destroy everything you love to achieve their ends.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:36 pm

Symmetry wrote:I don't understand this thread. Why does the title keep changing?


The thread itself hasn't changed titles. You can change the subject of your individual post, so anyone who quotes your post replies to that post's subject.
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Night Strike explains the obvious

Postby Symmetry on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I don't understand this thread. Why does the title keep changing?


The thread itself hasn't changed titles. You can change the subject of your individual post, so anyone who quotes your post replies to that post's subject.


Huh, who knew?
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:22 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I don't understand this thread. Why does the title keep changing?


The thread itself hasn't changed titles. You can change the subject of your individual post, so anyone who quotes your post replies to that post's subject.


lol
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:26 pm

pimpdave wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I don't understand this thread. Why does the title keep changing?


The thread itself hasn't changed titles. You can change the subject of your individual post, so anyone who quotes your post replies to that post's subject.


lol


Problems?
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Night Strike, are you autistic? Serious question.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:59 pm

pimpdave wrote:Night Strike, are you autistic? Serious question.


Nope.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:57 pm

Oh, okay. So there's no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt for why you are how you are.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:58 pm

Back on topic: The Tea Party is wrong and full of liars!
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby kentington on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:59 pm

pimpdave wrote:Back on topic: The Tea Party is wrong and full of liars!

Is not, is too.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:00 pm

kentington wrote:
pimpdave wrote:Back on topic: The Tea Party is wrong and full of liars!

is too.


I agree kentington, the Tea Party is too full of liars!
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby kentington on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:02 pm

pimpdave wrote:
kentington wrote:
pimpdave wrote:Back on topic: The Tea Party is wrong and full of liars!

is too.


I agree kentington, the Tea Party is too full of liars!


:mrgreen:
Everyone is a liar. Except me, of course.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:11 pm

pimpdave wrote:Oh, okay. So there's no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt for why you are how you are.


So were you planning to argue the points I made or just continue trolling?
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby tkr4lf on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:17 pm

pimpdave wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/tea-party-reading-of-history-mars-scotus-debate/2012/03/28/gIQAY9W8gS_blog.html

Yesterday’s big topic at the Court was over whether there’s some kind of “limiting principle” that would allow the government to enforce a mandate but would also draw lines against other government exercises of power that presumably would infringe on liberty.

But this is the wrong debate.

This whole discussion is rooted in a Tea Party or libertarian version of the Constitution that’s hogwash. The Constitution of the United States was not written to limit government, in either a historical or theoretical sense. That’s not what it was primarily about. The Constitution was written to create government, and to create government power.

It is true, of course, that Lockean ideas did at least partially influence the Framers. So it’s fair to say that they did care about limits to government. But they were also influenced by republican ideas that suggested a vigorous role for government — and by the practical problems that the incredibly limited government was causing, at least as they saw it.

The solution to the question of how to limit government power even while creating and encouraging it, as James Madison explained in Federalist 51, was separated institutions sharing powers. Government would be limited and tyranny prevented because the House, the Senate, the president, the courts, and the states would all compete with each other for influence, thus, Madison hoped, preventing any of them from dominating the rest and, with it, the nation. But what “tyranny” consists of is mostly not defined by Madison or the other Framers.

What the Framers developed was a democracy, and it’s in the democratic process that we decide what government should and shouldn’t do — and can and can’t do. Of course this takes interpretation of the Constitution — but that, too, is resolved by the democratic process.

What does all of this say about the “limiting principle”?

The group who needs a limiting principle, it seems to me, are the Court’s conservatives. At least, they need one if they want to knock out the health law without knocking out the entire New Deal. Important components of the New Deal — such as the minimum wage — are justified by current interpretation of the Commerce Clause. If the court decides to eliminate the health law by returning to the pre-New Deal understanding of the Commerce Clause, then the constitutional justification for all sorts of laws and programs would be threatened.

In asking for a limiting principle, Conservatives say they are demanding justification for why the law would not invite broccoli tyranny. But what they’re really looking for is a principle to knock down the health law without looking as if they’re undermining the rationale for much of the New Deal.

What liberals should be saying is: We don’t need a limiting principle, beyond the structure of the government of the United States. Liberals should demand that we put our trust in the limiting principle Madison came up with: we’ll avoid tyranny because our political system makes it awfully hard for anyone to tyrannize anyone else. We don’t need to be concerned about “the government” forcing everyone to eat broccoli because the government is the House and the Senate and the president and the courts and the rest of it, and they aren’t going to manage to agree on something obscure or crazy or silly most of the time because they have a really hard time even managing to agree on simple and popular stuff. And if they do pass something crazy, then you can have an election, toss them out, and get it repealed.

The Court conservatives cannot knock out the mandate, and retain the New Deal, and be consistent. They can have only any two of those at once. The consistency part of it may be a problem for them if they care about their reputation with lawyers, or with those who care about principles and standards and such. But they’re free under the constitution to act in what’s basically a partisan fashion — we tend to like our judges and justices to be all pure and nonpolitical, but they’re under no obligation to do that. If they want some principled way to keep health reform without tossing plenty more? They’re mostly out of luck.

Whoever wrote this is dumb.

You can pretty much learn everything you need to know to dispute what this dude wrote in a Freshmen level U.S. Government class.

Nice find, dave. :roll:
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:18 pm

tkr4lf wrote:Whoever wrote this is dumb.

You can pretty much learn everything you need to know to dispute what this dude wrote in a Freshmen level U.S. Government class.

Nice find, dave. :roll:


You can read the Constitution without any schooling and immediately know the article is incorrect.
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Re: Tea Party Idiots Lie About History to SCOTUS

Postby kentington on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:37 pm

Night Strike wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:Whoever wrote this is dumb.

You can pretty much learn everything you need to know to dispute what this dude wrote in a Freshmen level U.S. Government class.

Nice find, dave. :roll:


You can read the Constitution without any schooling and immediately know the article is incorrect.


Did either of you expect to find anything worth looking at in a thread by Dave? He is what he is, a hater.
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