NHL Season 2011-2012

[TheProwler]

Not really, you'll apparently have to hit me in the head a few more times.

Hey, you can take cheap shots at me. No problem. Just don't mess with Army of God. You even look at him sideways and I'll mess you up.

Now anyway, talking sense, you are aware roughly of the problems of head injuries in the long term?

Yes, and I understand your concern. But I don't think you understand that the majority of head injuries at all levels of hockey, including the NHL, come from bodychecks (both within the rules and bodychecks that are penalized - charging, headchecks, check from behind, elbowing, cross checking, boarding, roughing, high sticking (I know some of these are stick penalties, but they can occur in the process of throwing a hit)).

Proper "Policing" type of fighting is about doing something less dangerous (fighting) to prevent something more dangerous (big time hits).

It's only recently that the big time "dirty" hits have been a factor. IMO, that's because mediocre players are able to "run around" more because there are not proper enforcers in the game anymore (the tough guys are being handcuffed by the rules). In the old days, the enforcer's job was to protect the star players so they were not roughed-up. This allowed the stars to play a more finesse style game to be most effective.

Anyways, I'm rambling. The bottom-line is that head injuries are caused way more by other actions than fighting and fighting used to be used as a way to control these other actions.

So not just your star player getting an injury for a few games, but the dude you hired to fight getting brain damage and dying a few years after his career is finished.

I agree that is a problem. And I have thoughts on how to fix that problem. But I think that while taking fighting out of the game solves the problem you mentioned, it introduces way bigger problems.

Ask Daniel Sedin what he thinks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ75H7gS0hc

That kind of shit wouldn't happen if the players were still allowed to police themselves properly.

Do you seriously think that kind of impact is less severe than what happens in a typical hockey fight? You will not find more than 3 or 4 fights per decade that are as devastating to the head as a hit (elbow) like that. And those kinds of hits are happening every few weeks in the NHL.

I'm baffled as to why you think it's necessary, when many games outside of the NHL play great games without the need for fights. Is it just because people find it interesting?

You can't fight in the pro football because of the helmets. Plus they are big elephants compared to hockey players and that would make them crappy fighters.

Let me try to explain it to you:
- hockey is fast as hell
- no other contact sport has to deal with this kind of speed
- as a player, you can protect yourself by "keeping your head up" to avoid big hits or to get yourself in a good position to take a big hit more safely
- the more you are concerned about keeping your head up, the less you can be concerned about other things (looking for creative plays, looking for open ice, cutting to open ice while carrying the puck, etc.)
- these other things allow you to be more of an offensive player, but they put you at risk of getting caught off guard and getting creamed
- star offensive players are most effective when they play a free-wheeling game, not being worried about being hit - enforcers allowed them to play this way
- the role of the enforcer used to be to prevent the other team from taking advantage of the vulnerability of the offensive players as they were making these plays (in other words, don't make big hits on our star players)
- the non-offensive/non-star players played with their heads up so they didn't need protection from the enforcers

A common saying was "That guy gets a lot of room out there." when talking about a guy like Wayne Gretzky. What that meant was other teams respected the enforcers on his team and they knew that if they roughed-up Gretzky, they would get punched-out. It was different in those days. Enforcers would fight anyone that touched their stars. It wouldn't be "Your guy hit my star, so now I'm going to fight your tough guy." It would be "You hit my star, so now I'm going to punch you out." Now, most fights were tough guy versus tough guy, because they were just gauging their enforcer abilities. And because players very rarely took shots at star players when teams had proper enforcers.

Your post seems to suggest that it's a failure on the part of the referees and league that makes fights necessary, or perhaps a deliberate way of making money as a sideline to actual competitive play.

Well, there are players in the NHL that wouldn't have jobs if there were no fights, that is true.

I don't blame referees at all. They apply the rules the best way they can, under the enforcement guidelines they are given.

I do blame the league. Taking out the red line, clamping down on obstruction-type interference, introducing the instigator penalty, and over-penalizing fighting near the end of the game have all been contributing factors to making the NHL game much more dangerous.

I've played hockey for close to 40 years (some of those years at a competitive level). I've officiated hockey for over 20 years. I don't expect that I can effectively express all my knowledge of the game on this forum. It's possible that until you can get out on the ice and play a game and experience a crushing bodycheck at high speeds, that you will never understand why the game needs enforcers to be safer.

[GreecePwns]

Big time hits within the rules? Good. So what they're dangerous, they're allowed and part of the enforcer role that's been in ice hockey for a long, long time.

Big time cheap shots? Bad. They are almost always even more dangerous, and aren't within the rules. But how do you get rid of them? By cracking down on interference-type calls? That just takes out the clean hits we used to see and therefore kills the enforcer role, as TheProwler said.

Prowler, I read somewhere another long-time referee saying that one way to deal with this is to make boarding, checks to the head, clipping, roughing etc. automatic major penalties (I'll look for the link, but this was a long time ago). What do you think of this?

[Army of GOD]

I don't understand what's wrong with Fleury. It's as if he's not seeing the puck or something.

[oVo]

You can't fight in the pro football because of the helmets.

It's not a helmet thing, fighting in the NFL results in game suspensions (plural) and loss of multiple paychecks, which is not chump change regardless of who it is. Cheap shots and bad hits don't have to be called by refs on the field during a game to result in big fines and suspensions. Also the size of the penalty given is related to the potential harm and not if an injury occurred. The commissioner and review board are the enforcers with an abundance of video to assist their rulings.

The increased size and speed of Hockey players in a rough sport definitely shows big hits to be hazardous and fighting isn't going to change that. It isn't always a big hit that makes a concussion bad, but generally the accumulation of physical abuse a player absorbs over the years that increases the effect of those impacts. Once a player has endured a few bad concussions (brain traumas) the next one doesn't require as much impact to produce even worse results and potentially even end a hockey career. Hits and physical punishment are part of the game whether there is fighting on the ice or not.

I'm not endorsing a ban on fighting, award penalties and play on. I don't think it does anything for the sport of Hockey though. To believe "enforcers" punching someone out on the ice is enough to curb bad play and cheap shots in the modern game just seems naive to me and if the NHL ever decides to protect their players a bigger incentive has to be in place.

Preds play most of the 3rd period in their own end and still hold off the Wings for a Game 3 win.
Detroit was a nanosecond away from tying it up at the end of the second period after trailing 2-0 early.

[Army of GOD]

During the Pens game, the commentators said that out of a poll of 200 players, only one said they wanted fighting banned.

Not even a full percent of players want fighting gone. I think that says something significant, especially when they're the one's to choose to fight.

[oVo]

I think that says something significant...

That the Pens need to fight more in Philly to keep from getting swept?

[Army of GOD]

I think that says something significant...

That the Pens need to fight more in Philly to keep from getting swept?

Actually, they do.

Flyers have been out hustling the Pens all series. Asham's hit was really fucking stupid and I hate what he did, but the Letang fight and Crosby scuffle were necessary.

[IcePack]

I think philly (tho i dont really like them) are definetely playing the stronger hockey.

whitestazn - i know both teams played well, i just think bruins played better that game. I expected them to take the game.

IcePack

[gannable]

pathetic goaltending by Brzgolev

im very nervous with a 6-4 lead heading into the 3rd

[Army of GOD]

pathetic goaltending by Brzgolev

im very nervous with a 6-4 lead heading into the 3rd

He's been outperforming Fleury.

I think we might need to stick Johnson in if he continues to suck ass.

[Army of GOD]

pathetic goaltending by Brzgolev

im very nervous with a 6-4 lead heading into the 3rd

He's been outperforming Fleury.

I think we might need to stick Johnson in if he continues to suck ass.

Or we'll go to Johnson at the start of the third.

[Army of GOD]

Talbot was huge for us in 09 when we won the cup and he's coming up big for the Flyers now. He works harder than anyone else on the ice.

[Army of GOD]

Stupidly awful game. Lack of effort and just stupid penalties (I'm looking at you, Kunitz).

[Serbia]

I was at the Wings vs. Preds game. Detroit dominated that game, but again, Rinne stood on his head, and Nashville took advantage of the chances they had.

[keiths31]

Detroit/Nashville game = good

Pittsburgh/Philadelphia game = absolutely terrible

[oVo]

He's been outperforming Fleury.

He also hasn't faced the offensive onslaught Fleury has endured.

So glad they decided to fight late in the Third Period, it made it so much better
and now maybe the Penguins have a black eye or two to balance out the total
ass kicking they received today. Don't pin it all on the goalie... Pittsburgh got
schooled in every aspect of the game today.

The fights were so entertaining... almost as thrilling as watching the field crew
roll out the tarps during the rain delay of a baseball game.

In Detroit I thought the Preds had a lot of luck come their way after the 1st Period
and were fortunate to escape with the win. The Wings had so many great shots on
goal and came up empty while Nashville made the most of the few opportunities
they had late in the game.

[keiths31]

He's been outperforming Fleury.

He also hasn't faced the offensive onslaught Fleury has endured.

So glad they decided to fight late in the Third Period, it made it so much better
and now maybe the Penguins have a black eye or two to balance out the total
ass kicking they received today. Don't pin it all on the goalie... Pittsburgh got
schooled in every aspect of the game today.

The fights were so entertaining... almost as thrilling as watching the field crew
roll out the tarps during the rain delay of a baseball game.

In Detroit I thought the Preds had a lot of luck come their way after the 1st Period
and were fortunate to escape with the win. The Wings had so many great shots on
goal and came up empty while Nashville made the most of the few opportunities
they had late in the game.

What happened in today's game was not part of what I was arguing for. Line brawls are just as bad as bench clearing brawls. The refs let that game get way out of hand.

[Army of GOD]

He's been outperforming Fleury.

He also hasn't faced the offensive onslaught Fleury has endured.

.

I don't know about that. Bryzgalov made extremely huge saves in Games 1 and 2 (in 2 he had that ridiculous glove save against Kunitz [or was it Letang? I don't remember]). Fleury is just letting everything through.

[mviola]

He's been outperforming Fleury.

He also hasn't faced the offensive onslaught Fleury has endured.

So glad they decided to fight late in the Third Period, it made it so much better
and now maybe the Penguins have a black eye or two to balance out the total
ass kicking they received today. Don't pin it all on the goalie... Pittsburgh got
schooled in every aspect of the game today.

The fights were so entertaining... almost as thrilling as watching the field crew
roll out the tarps during the rain delay of a baseball game.

In Detroit I thought the Preds had a lot of luck come their way after the 1st Period
and were fortunate to escape with the win. The Wings had so many great shots on
goal and came up empty while Nashville made the most of the few opportunities
they had late in the game.

What happened in today's game was not part of what I was arguing for. Line brawls are just as bad as bench clearing brawls. The refs let that game get way out of hand.

I thought it was pretty funny at the end with skaters being thrown off the ice en masse.

That said, there is a serious lack of defense in this series.

[gannable]

If Giroux has a concussion because of Neal then all I have to say --

game 4 dress Jody Shelly and have him take a shot at Crosby's head. if he ends his career then too bad

Pens have been pulling this crap for years. They've had incidents with the islanders, Rangers, and Bruins as well, and thats just off the top of my head.

Enough is enough

[TheProwler]

Prowler, I read somewhere another long-time referee saying that one way to deal with this is to make boarding, checks to the head, clipping, roughing etc. automatic major penalties (I'll look for the link, but this was a long time ago). What do you think of this?

Boarding - I like the rule as it is which gives the referee the flexibility to call a minor or a major penalty, based mainly on degree of impact.

Checks to the Head - In most hockey governed by Hockey Canada, they initiated a new rule this year called "Head Contact" and they took out the "Checking to the Head" penalty. It was a weird move, in my opinion. Now anything intentional to the neck and up is a double minor under the "Head Contact" rule - this includes what used to be high sticking, elbowing, roughing, head checks, etc.. Anything where there is contact to to the head. So those other penalties are still there if it isn't to the head. If it is deemed to be accidental, it is a minor penalty. Incidental contact is no penalty. We still can go to a major penalty for more violent contact or if it results in injury, and a match penalty if we think there was intent to injure. They are trying to clamp down on head contact, but we are handing out double minors for "facewashes" after the whistle which hardly seems fair when a decent head check gets the same thing. And it doesn't come with a misconduct penalty anymore (like Checking to the Head did).

Clipping - This I could see as a penalty that could always be called a major, since it is almost always a dangerous play. FYI, under Hockey Canada there is no clipping penalty; clipping is not mentioned at all in the rule book. Most actions that would be ruled clipping are assessed tripping penalties (often majors).

Roughing - I like the rule as it is which gives the referee the flexibility to call a minor or a major penalty, based mainly on degree of impact.

If they want to clamp down on these types of penalties, no rules changes are really necessary. All of these penalties can be ruled major penalties. Instructions just have to be given to the referees to lower their tolerance level of when they go to a major. And I think that would be a great idea. A lot of the stuff that gets minor penalties in the NHL would get major penalties in amateur hockey. And if it was a major in the NHL (other than fights), it would often be a match penalty in amateur.

I think clamping down this way would actually be more effective than handing out suspensions. I'm not saying that I'd stop giving out suspensions for serious incidents. I'm saying that I think that if more majors were given out this way, there would be less incidents that would justify suspensions.

[whitestazn88]

Man, the kings dude... where is this coming from? Or is the absence of Sedin that big?

[TheForgivenOne]

Man, the kings dude... where is this coming from? Or is the absence of Sedin that big?

I picked Quick as my Goalie for the playoffs. Glad I did.

[TheProwler]

I just watched some clips on YouTube of the Penguins/Flyers game.

Crosby is an idiot. If he wants to carry on the way he does, he has to expect the bullshit that comes with it. In the 1st period, he took 2 or 3 whacks at the goalie's glove when the puck was covered. Some people will say "Go at it until you hear the whistle." That's fine, and it generally won't result in a penalty. I do penalize that, because it doesn't actually say anywhere in the Rule Book that it is allowed to slash the goaltender until the whistle is blown - if they started the motion at the puck before it was covered I let them have that one whack, but anything that they start after it is clearly covered I give them a slashing penalty. Anyways, in the NHL they generally don't penalize that. But everybody should know that teams have to protect their goaltenders (I know, I know oVo, you don't like it...it bores you...they don't do that in rugby...). So when you take your stick and hack at the goaltender like Crosby did, you should be well aware that you are going to get roughed-up a little bit. So when he was roughed-up, he should have just taken it, and let it calm down and skated away.

But he decides to facewash a guy, mouth off to another guy, eventually knock the one guy's glove away when he's bending down to pick it up....everything that a instigator/pest should do. Not something an offensive star should do!!!

And then the charge by Neal near the end of the game....dirty hit. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Kudos to the guys that stepped in for Crosby. You gotta do that to protect your star players (I know, I know oVo, you don't like it...it bores you...they don't do that in soccer...). It's just too bad that Crosby gets himself into these things so much (holding back Hartnell is one thing....but the way he did it which caused the shirt to choke Hartnell was just asking for more trouble).

The way the Penguins play is reckless. They have a couple of superstars and they put them at rink because of their dirty play and their rough play. It would be fine if they have 2 or 3 enforcers that put the fear into other teams. But they don't. So they have to contend with this kind of stuff. And they are going to have to contend with someone taking a cheap shot at or making a big hit on Crosby which is going to put him back in the hospital.

I think that if you have a superstar, you need an enforcer. The way Crosby acts, he needs more than one. He brings so much on himself.

If Giroux has a concussion because of Neal then all I have to say --

game 4 dress Jody Shelly and have him take a shot at Crosby's head. if he ends his career then too bad

Pens have been pulling this crap for years. They've had incidents with the islanders, Rangers, and Bruins as well, and thats just off the top of my head.

Enough is enough

See the kind of natural emotion that their play evokes? This is a natural response to the way the Penguins play the game. I don't expect to see Jody Shelley or anyone else going after Crosby in a premeditated way, but there's a bunch of guys that might on a spur of the moment decision.

[oVo]

Man, the kings dude... where is this coming from? Or is the absence of Sedin that big?

The Pacific Division was so tight prior to the post season with so many teams
on the bubble, I'm not surprised they came into round one ready to play.
I am surprised they're up 3-0. How long has it been since an 8th seed
eliminated the top overall seed? Quick's 41 stops is awesome in the net.

The empty benches at the end of the Pens/Flyers game did look odd.