Texas executed an innocent man

[Crazyirishman]

I support the death penalty and here's some things that think pertain to this

1. With 20+ years of an appeal process, I am really surprised that there wasn't an overturn in the decision if there is such overwhelming evidence. It happened a few year ago with Dewey Bozella

2. If Columbia put together all this shit, why didn't they release this to the media/ judicial system in Texas prior to the execution? or did they just happen to put all the pieces together afterwards?

3. Texas dun der fucked up if all of this is true.

[/]

2. If Columbia put together all this shit, why didn't they release this to the media/ judicial system in Texas prior to the execution? or did they just happen to put all the pieces together afterwards?

They, like the judicial system, care about the dead more than the living. With as much apathy as he received, it's fairly likely he would have died of natural causes before being released, even if he didn't receive a death penalty.

[GreecePwns]

Columbia University is the most liberal school in our country.

... didn't Wayne Allyn Root attend Columbia?

But Krugman teaches there, therefore communism.

[saxitoxin]

People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein.

Mussolini never had a trial except in the court of public opinion. Considering what a basket case Italy's courts of law are in the year 2011 (see: Amanda Knox), the Italian courts of public opinion in the year 1945 should be a bit suspect. Ilse Koch was sentenced to death in connection with the Buchenwald concentration camp but was exonerated and released after it was discovered all the inmates had conspired to concoct a big lie.

I believe what Symmetry and Natty are saying is that, since we know concentration camp inmates lied, how can we be sure the Holocaust happened?

[/]

People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein.

Mussolini never had a trial except in the court of public opinion. Considering what a basket case Italy's courts of law are in the year 2011 (see: Amanda Knox), the Italian courts of public opinion in the year 1945 should be a bit suspect. Alfred Jodl was executed with much more actual evidence presented and his conviction was overturned on appeal (though he'd already been executed so that was a bit of a moot point, I guess).

I know he relieved no official trial, but I was making a generalization, when you are the type of guy who has publicly lead to armies to burning down villages and hospitals, I say you are free game.

[saxitoxin]

People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein.

Mussolini never had a trial except in the court of public opinion. Considering what a basket case Italy's courts of law are in the year 2011 (see: Amanda Knox), the Italian courts of public opinion in the year 1945 should be a bit suspect. Alfred Jodl was executed with much more actual evidence presented and his conviction was overturned on appeal (though he'd already been executed so that was a bit of a moot point, I guess).

I know he relieved no official trial, but I was making a generalization, when you are the type of guy who has publicly lead to armies to burning down villages and hospitals, I say you are free game.

Should Winston Churchill have been executed? (For the record, I think he should have been imprisoned for life, so I won't hold it against you if you say yes.)

[/]

People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein.

Mussolini never had a trial except in the court of public opinion. Considering what a basket case Italy's courts of law are in the year 2011 (see: Amanda Knox), the Italian courts of public opinion in the year 1945 should be a bit suspect. Alfred Jodl was executed with much more actual evidence presented and his conviction was overturned on appeal (though he'd already been executed so that was a bit of a moot point, I guess).

I know he relieved no official trial, but I was making a generalization, when you are the type of guy who has publicly lead to armies to burning down villages and hospitals, I say you are free game.

Should Winston Churchill have been executed? (For the record, I think he should have been imprisoned for life, so I won't hold it against you if you say yes.)

It's possible, he showed little value for life, even his memo on the matter is only about resources, rather than remorse or human consideration.

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of the so called 'area-bombing' of German cities should be reviewed from the point of view of our own interests. If we come into control of an entirely ruined land, there will be a great shortage of accommodation for ourselves and our allies... We must see to it that our attacks do no more harm to ourselves in the long run than they do to the enemy's war effort."

I suppose he at least called for a stop under pressure... for whatever that's worth.

[saxitoxin]

People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein.

Mussolini never had a trial except in the court of public opinion. Considering what a basket case Italy's courts of law are in the year 2011 (see: Amanda Knox), the Italian courts of public opinion in the year 1945 should be a bit suspect. Alfred Jodl was executed with much more actual evidence presented and his conviction was overturned on appeal (though he'd already been executed so that was a bit of a moot point, I guess).

I know he relieved no official trial, but I was making a generalization, when you are the type of guy who has publicly lead to armies to burning down villages and hospitals, I say you are free game.

Should Winston Churchill have been executed? (For the record, I think he should have been imprisoned for life, so I won't hold it against you if you say yes.)

It's possible, he showed little value for life, even his memo on the matter is only about resources, rather than remorse or human consideration.

fair enough

[natty dread]

Well, mr. root directory, what exactly is the "correct" way of "implementing" government-approved murder?

I believe there are levels of crime, this is why we have degrees of murder, but still there are other factors that we are able to perceive on a case by case basis, but the trait is hard to put into words. Those whom I believe deserve death are those who truly can be called an "enemy", just an enemy of mankind in the broadest sense, they are the worst traits of humanity personified and bring despair largely in their existence.

People who are obvious, unrepentant, guilty and proud of it, war criminals, murder rapists, outlaws, and gang leaders. People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein. These people cannot just be locked up, they strike a chord in the hearts of the depraved, they find a way to influence society, becoming folk heroes. Cop killers become the kings of the prison, living it up as the alpha in a pit of animals, influencing all of the lesser inmates into joining their gangs, when the others are released they in turn spread it to the new recruits, it's a cycle that needs to be made an example of.

We have a line of decency that makes us human, crossing this line will cause criminals to be permanently removed from the world.

So, you think US presidents and military leaders should also be executed then? The ones who order drone strikes that kill innocent people?

What about dirty cops? Police officers who abuse their power and beat innocent citizens to death? Should they be executed?

[saxitoxin]

Well, mr. root directory, what exactly is the "correct" way of "implementing" government-approved murder?

I believe there are levels of crime, this is why we have degrees of murder, but still there are other factors that we are able to perceive on a case by case basis, but the trait is hard to put into words. Those whom I believe deserve death are those who truly can be called an "enemy", just an enemy of mankind in the broadest sense, they are the worst traits of humanity personified and bring despair largely in their existence.

People who are obvious, unrepentant, guilty and proud of it, war criminals, murder rapists, outlaws, and gang leaders. People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein. These people cannot just be locked up, they strike a chord in the hearts of the depraved, they find a way to influence society, becoming folk heroes. Cop killers become the kings of the prison, living it up as the alpha in a pit of animals, influencing all of the lesser inmates into joining their gangs, when the others are released they in turn spread it to the new recruits, it's a cycle that needs to be made an example of.

We have a line of decency that makes us human, crossing this line will cause criminals to be permanently removed from the world.

So, you think US presidents and military leaders should also be executed then? The ones who order drone strikes that kill innocent people?

That's not a fair question to ask / as it can't legally be answered in the United States with respect to the current president. He said yes to my question about hanging the war criminal Winston Churchill, so it can be established he's intellectually consistent in his position without additional scenario-based inquiries.

[natty dread]

Well, mr. root directory, what exactly is the "correct" way of "implementing" government-approved murder?

I believe there are levels of crime, this is why we have degrees of murder, but still there are other factors that we are able to perceive on a case by case basis, but the trait is hard to put into words. Those whom I believe deserve death are those who truly can be called an "enemy", just an enemy of mankind in the broadest sense, they are the worst traits of humanity personified and bring despair largely in their existence.

People who are obvious, unrepentant, guilty and proud of it, war criminals, murder rapists, outlaws, and gang leaders. People like the BTK Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Mussolini and Saddam Hussein. These people cannot just be locked up, they strike a chord in the hearts of the depraved, they find a way to influence society, becoming folk heroes. Cop killers become the kings of the prison, living it up as the alpha in a pit of animals, influencing all of the lesser inmates into joining their gangs, when the others are released they in turn spread it to the new recruits, it's a cycle that needs to be made an example of.

We have a line of decency that makes us human, crossing this line will cause criminals to be permanently removed from the world.

So, you think US presidents and military leaders should also be executed then? The ones who order drone strikes that kill innocent people?

That's not a fair question to ask / as it can't legally be answered in the United States with respect to the current president. He said yes to my question about hanging the war criminal Winston Churchill, so it can be established he's intellectually consistent in his position without additional scenario-based inquiries.

What, why not? I thought USA had freedom of speech.

Oh well. /, just blink once for "yes" and twice for "no"!

[AAFitz]

Does Columbia University have an agenda?

Don't you?

And, in this case, the seem to be pointing out a case where an innocent person was wrongfully put to death by the government.

It seems odd to me that for the sake of defending your party line, you would ignore such a fact and simply move to make this a political discussion.

....typical, but odd.

[Symmetry]

Does Columbia University have an agenda?

Don't you?

And, in this case, the seem to be pointing out a case where an innocent person was wrongfully put to death by the government.

It seems odd to me that for the sake of defending your party line, you would ignore such a fact and simply move to make this a political discussion.

....typical, but odd.

It does seem odd, Scotty usually opposes government intervention, Here, he wants the death sentence even in the face of proof that it's wrong.

[oVo]

I doubt this is the first innocent victim of capital punishment.

The fact that it costs taxpayers millions of dollars to prosecute
a capital murder case is also criminal or that there is no cost
effective way to incarcerate people sentenced to life in prison.

It's not even the first innocent man executed in Texas. Worrying about the cost of imprisoning vs execution seems kind of peripheral when I've given you extensive proof of his innocence.

I wasn't comparing the expense of both situations at all, just pointing out that smaller municipalities in the USA are financially gutted by the millions of dollars required to prosecute a capital murder case and all it's appeals. Equally absurd is the ridiculous annual expense incurred to hold convicted felons in prison when more than a hundred million American citizens actually live their lives with less than half that financial support available to make ends meet.

The perversion of justice isn't reserved for just the inept methods of prosecuting cases, but also the "intentions" of many laws are bent to create loopholes and skew legal interpretations to benefit the accused.

[saxitoxin]

What, why not? I thought USA had freedom of speech.

[/]

What, why not? I thought USA had freedom of speech.

Oh well. /, just blink once for "yes" and twice for "no"!

Like I said, there are different levels of culpability, death is the highest.

I can only answer you if you answer me, do you think these deaths were not a mistake/justifiable in wartime by a soldier?

Do you think the drone program was perfectly capable of killing some 2000~ enemy combatants, and then some higher-up said, "Let's just start going after random people.".

Do you believe, even after the extensive research the military does on their targets, that the majority of the 300~ non combatants were not affiliated in terrorism organisations in any way?
Are these drones deliberately targeting civilian areas with intent to destroy?

I'm not saying there is no culpability for certain instances, but as I have defined my opinion execution is best given to the deliberate unjustified enemies of humanity.

[natty dread]

Like I said, there are different levels of culpability, death is the highest.

I can only answer you if you answer me, do you think these deaths were not a mistake/justifiable in wartime by a soldier?

Ok, let's say no. The whole "war" USA is in is bullshit anyway. Every drone strike they commit that kills innocent civilians (ie. all of them, pretty much) is a crime against humanity.

Should the ones responsible be executed? Should the US politicians and military leaders and others who benefit from the military-industrial complex be executed? After all, they have caused way more unjustified civilian deaths than Saddam or Osama ever did.

[/]

Fine I'll bite, substantiate your claims that what the US is doing is worse than Saddam leading a genocide against 600,000 Kurds.

[Johnny Rockets]

Man.....you're going to regret that bite.

Welcome to the land of straw-man arguments, shifting positions with additional scenario-based inquiries, moronic tangents, and towards the end of the exchange, passive/aggressive hostility.

Your basic Natty Dread verbal sparring match with a large dollop of self-righteousness.

Good luck, "/" !

JRock

[natty dread]

Man.....you're going to regret that bite.

Welcome to the land of straw-man arguments, shifting positions with additional scenario-based inquiries, moronic tangents, and towards the end of the exchange, passive/aggressive hostility.

Your basic Natty Dread verbal sparring match with a large dollop of self-righteousness.

Good luck, "/" !

JRock

Butthurt much?

[lynch5762]

Okay so I guess I am a bit confused.... How did a thread concerning an innocent man being sentenced to death turn into a debate about the US war policies?

The fact that this is an international site, accompanied by the fact that there are many young and vocal members in this forum, makes this a fascinating venue to voice opinions. That being said, I am amazed at how quickly discussions get side-railed and off topic.

If we want to talk about the atrocities of foreign leaders then lets discuss them but this thread had a specific question and topic.

I'm sure it will become obvious, but I am a supporter of the death penalty. I think it is important to understand why the death penalty or "capitol punishment" laws are in place. The justice system in itself is designed to take the act of "enforcing the law" out of the hands of ordinary citizens. This includes capitol punishment.

Capitol punishment has been in place throughout societies since the beginning of time. Public executions were widely practiced in many countries until recently. Most often the subjects of these public executions were political figures instead of the hardened criminals that we think of today.

I don't know whether the person mentioned in this thread is innocent or not but I have faith in our justice system. If you consider the appeals process that we have in place , versus that of other countries, I would say that if I were on trial I would want it to be here.

I know that many will point out the fact that it doesn't seem human to take one innocent life (please note that I am not saying he is innocent) but no one ever seems to remember the criminals that have taken peoples lives yet walk the streets today. There are many criminals that are free today even though they are guilty of murder. We can fight about the one person who is presumed innocent but I have to ask.... Where are all the people screaming about the people that were murdered and the fact that the people that killed them are free today. Trust me there are thousands of them!!!!

One of my favorite movie lines is from Clint Eastwood in "The Unforgiven"... His character says. "Killing a man isn't easy.... once you kill a man... you take away all he is, all he ever was, and all he is ever going to be"

The victims of murder never get another say in the matter and It is truly sad that innocent people are killed every day.

You also have to ask the following question: does the existence of capitol punishment deter some people from committing murder? If the answer is yes, then you have to compare those innocent lives saved versus the presumption of the ones lost...

Just food for thought

[natty dread]

I'm sure it will become obvious, but I am a supporter of the death penalty.

How do you live with yourself?

I think it is important to understand why the death penalty or "capitol punishment" laws are in place. The justice system in itself is designed to take the act of "enforcing the law" out of the hands of ordinary citizens. This includes capitol punishment.

You are confusing the proximate with the ultimate.

Capitol punishment has been in place throughout societies since the beginning of time. Public executions were widely practiced in many countries until recently. Most often the subjects of these public executions were political figures instead of the hardened criminals that we think of today.

Naturalistic fallacy and/or appeal to antiquity.

don't know whether the person mentioned in this thread is innocent or not but I have faith in our justice system.

Must be some faith, when you maintain it even when faced with contradictory evidence...

Wait. Are you perhaps a creationist by any chance?

I know that many will point out the fact that it doesn't seem human to take one innocent life (please note that I am not saying he is innocent) but no one ever seems to remember the criminals that have taken peoples lives yet walk the streets today. There are many criminals that are free today even though they are guilty of murder. We can fight about the one person who is presumed innocent but I have to ask.... Where are all the people screaming about the people that were murdered and the fact that the people that killed them are free today. Trust me there are thousands of them!!!!

So two wrongs make a right then?

The victims of murder never get another say in the matter and It is truly sad that innocent people are killed every day.

And killing the killer is going to bring the victims back?

You also have to ask the following question: does the existence of capitol punishment deter some people from committing murder? If the answer is yes, then you have to compare those innocent lives saved versus the presumption of the ones lost...

However, the answer is no. So this point is moot.

[lynch5762]

I'm sure it will become obvious, but I am a supporter of the death penalty.

How do you live with yourself? Quite nicely I would say

I think it is important to understand why the death penalty or "capitol punishment" laws are in place. The justice system in itself is designed to take the act of "enforcing the law" out of the hands of ordinary citizens. This includes capitol punishment.

You are confusing the proximate with the ultimate. I'm not confusing anything... I just think its important to understand why something exists in order to form an opinion as to whether or not you support it.

Capitol punishment has been in place throughout societies since the beginning of time. Public executions were widely practiced in many countries until recently. Most often the subjects of these public executions were political figures instead of the hardened criminals that we think of today.

Naturalistic fallacy and/or appeal to antiquity. ?

don't know whether the person mentioned in this thread is innocent or not but I have faith in our justice system.

Must be some faith, when you maintain it even when faced with contradictory evidence... I admitted I did not read the evidence but I would still have faith in our system. And you have no way of confirming whether or not this evidence is accurate unless there is something I don't know.

Wait. Are you perhaps a creationist by any chance? nope

I know that many will point out the fact that it doesn't seem human to take one innocent life (please note that I am not saying he is innocent) but no one ever seems to remember the criminals that have taken peoples lives yet walk the streets today. There are many criminals that are free today even though they are guilty of murder. We can fight about the one person who is presumed innocent but I have to ask.... Where are all the people screaming about the people that were murdered and the fact that the people that killed them are free today. Trust me there are thousands of them!!!!

So two wrongs make a right then? I never said that. I was just pointing out that the number of free murderers walking the streets, far exceeds the number of innocent victims of capitol punishment. Apparently this does not trouble you at all

The victims of murder never get another say in the matter and It is truly sad that innocent people are killed every day.

And killing the killer is going to bring the victims back? Nope, but it does bring justice and also takes everything from the killer that he took from someone else. If I understand you correctly, you would prefer that all murderers get to live their full lives, regardless of the fact that they made a decision to end the life of someone else? Hmmm

You also have to ask the following question: does the existence of capitol punishment deter some people from committing murder? If the answer is yes, then you have to compare those innocent lives saved versus the presumption of the ones lost...

However, the answer is no. So this point is moot.

Do you have evidence to back up your statement? I am quite certain I could prove otherwise but I am not going to waste a bunch of time on it with you

[lynch5762]

Okay so I guess I am a bit confused.... How did a thread concerning an innocent man being sentenced to death turn into a debate about the US war policies?

The fact that this is an international site, accompanied by the fact that there are many young and vocal members in this forum, makes this a fascinating venue to voice opinions. That being said, I am amazed at how quickly discussions get side-railed and off topic.

If we want to talk about the atrocities of foreign leaders then lets discuss them but this thread had a specific question and topic.

I realize that, my apologies, I am new to this particular section and forgot how spirited I can become at times, I have reported my post to the moderators and requested the posts in question be moved to an alternate thread.

There was no need for an apology or asking a mod to move posts. This is the first time I visited this thread and I was just pointing out that it had gotten off topic... It's not a big deal really. It probably happens in most threads

[natty dread]

Ok 1stofall, lrn2quote.

2ndly,

Quite nicely I would say

How do you sleep at night?

I'm not confusing anything... I just think its important to understand why something exists in order to form an opinion as to whether or not you support it.

You are describing the proximate cause of capital punishment and presenting it as the ultimate cause.

Understanding the proximate cause for capital punishment isn't really helpful, as it's fairly obvious and fails to explain or address any of the reasons leading to it. But in the end, even the ultimate cause of capital punishment is irrelevant - what matters is what is done to it now.

Naturalistic fallacy and/or appeal to antiquity. ?

In a nutshell: just because something is doesn't necessarily mean that that something should be. And, respectively, just because something has been done for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean that it should still be done.

So two wrongs make a right then? I never said that. I was just pointing out that the number of free murderers walking the streets, far exceeds the number of innocent victims of capitol punishment. Apparently this does not trouble you at all

Define "murderer". If someone is convicted of murder and serves their sentence, is thon still a murderer?

If you're saying that more murderers get away with murder unpunished, than there are innocent victims murdered by capital punishment, I'd say so what? Even one innocent person murdered by their government is one too many. And I'd rather let a 1000 criminals go unpunished than let 1 innocent person be falsely sentenced to death.

Nope, but it does bring justice and also takes everything from the killer that he took from someone else. If I understand you correctly, you would prefer that all murderers get to live their full lives, regardless of the fact that they made a decision to end the life of someone else? Hmmm

Define "justice". What exactly is "just"? Declaring something as just or unjust is a moral statement, and there's no absolute authority on moral issues. What you consider just is unjust in someone else's perspective.

The law cannot and should not be used as a tool of revenge. When a murderer is convicted into a prison sentence, they're already being punished. The consequence is that they lose their freedom for a certain amount of time. They can no longer pose a danger to others when they are isolated from the society. Now, what additional benefit would murdering the murderer serve, other than to satisfy some kind of emotional craving for vengeance?

Do you have evidence to back up your statement? I am quite certain I could prove otherwise but I am not going to waste a bunch of time on it with you

The evidence is very simply that the rate of violent crime is no lower in states/countries that have capital punishment than in countries that don't.