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The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:32 pm

Phatscotty wrote:maybe progress isn't just what you say it is.


My agreement or disagreement is not necessary for progress to take place.

Phatscotty wrote:Maybe people are redefining the word progress just the same as they are redefining marriage?


No one is redefining progress, just as no one is redefining marriage.

Phatscotty wrote:Maybe progress has been highjacked.


I'm not even sure how this is possible.

Phatscotty wrote:Maybe progress is overreaching.


That is what progress does, almost by definition.

Phatscotty wrote:Maybe the issue of progress does not and cannot pertain to the institution of marriage.


I certainly would disagree with this, given that the current state of marriage (referring primarily to the high divorce rate) could do with a great deal of progress.

Phatscotty wrote:perhaps progress is the wrong term to use here?


I suppose if you disagree that it is progress, you might think so, sure.

Phatscotty wrote:Perhaps some people are just using and exploiting progress just because their might be a cash benefit involved?


That is, unfortunately, simple human behavior. This has always been true and, in fact, is largely what does drive progress these days.

Phatscotty wrote:Perhaps gay marriage is just a stepping stone to the issue of gay adoption?


I can see why someone who is against both of those things might believe that to be the case. I believe they are two wholly separate issues that simply have similar "distaste" associated with them by those who disagree with the practice.

Phatscotty wrote:Is any of that a possibility?


Sure.

Phatscotty wrote:I took you off foe to say this. Don't make me regret it! They are honest questions.


If they are truly "honest questions", then I don't really understand what you're looking for. They don't seem to be honest questions to me, but I did try to answer them honestly.

Phatscotty wrote:Whatever the answer is on this issue, the people have had their say. The verdict is in, for now. You are just going to have to keep fighting. If you truly believe these are rights, like the rights we had to fight the Revolutionary war or the Civil war to get and grant, then you are going to have to fight for them, just like everyone else. I think it's about benefits and adoption.


I definitely think it's about benefits. In fact, that's almost the entire issue in my personal view, at least as far as why I personally care about it. I don't really think it's about adoption.
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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:34 pm

that would suppress Liberty (not freedom) exactly the same way as if a state voted to recognize gay marriage, and then a judge overturned the vote and told them they would not recognize their vote. In that case I would still hold my same position that the state voted to legalize gay marriage, and it should be legal. And then I would not be a slave owner anymore even though I did not change my position, which is proof you guys are out of line with how you treat me on this issue.
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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:What's your beef with gay adoption? How does that even have to do with your bogus argument that those who fight for gay marriage are doing it for the benefits. And that is what you're saying, don't deny it. That's the only way "using and exploiting progress just because their might be a cash benefit involved" can be taken. Not that government shouldn't be giving benefits.


It doesn't have anything to do with my argument. It's an identification of what I think their argument is really all about.


You say that like it's a bad thing. But it's never been a bad thing until "the gays" wanted it.

Phatscotty wrote:The example before us is that when they were fighting for civil unions, they really didn't care about the civil union, since obviously a civil union is not good enough anymore (now that the goalposts have been moved again). It was just a stepping stone to marriage.


This is not true at all. In fact, for the vast majority of homosexuals, this is perfectly fine. Of course, I must point out now that civil unions are also "about the benefits", but that was ok with you and being "about the benefits" when it's marriage isn't. That seems to be a disconnect.

Phatscotty wrote:If you want to participate in the response to woodruff, you can start by opining on whether any of that is possible, and you don't need to incorporate what you think my thoughts or feelings on the issue have to do with that, as they are irrelevant.


Phatscotty, one thing we have ALL learned in these fora is that your thoughts and feelings on any given issue are not at all irrelevant, because they absolutely will drive how you ask questions, which are almost always highly leading.

Phatscotty wrote:The issue had a fair chance for both sides. They won a couple, and lost the rest. We are and have been reasonable about all this. You guys have to meet us halfway, just the same way we did for you. civil unions are the compromise we both seek, and that is what we mostly have, and most people are A-OK with that. But rather than appreciate your victory, it seems you guys have gotten even angrier and more demanding, calling people slave-owners for holding the opinion today that was totally acceptable to your side just a few years ago.


What is this "you guys" crap?
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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:38 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I did miss it, as I cannot see Symmetries posts. I foed him because I feel he was trolling me and every single post I made for about a week.


I'm beginning to see a pattern appear here.

Phatscotty wrote:To answer Symm's Q, I do not think any freedom is being suppressed. I think things are fine the way they are. That is, recognizing civil unions while not changing the definition of marriage, and letting people democratically vote if they want to change it on a state level. Seemed like a total and fair compromise to me.


I don't believe you actually answered the question. Care to try again?
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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:46 pm

Is there any way a state can suppress freedoms through democratic means, according to you?
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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:55 pm

GreecePwns wrote:Is there any way a state can suppress freedoms through democratic means, according to you?


what is an example of a "freedom". Just assuming since we are from different countries we might have different definitions.
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Re: The Majority of Americans Support Wut?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Is there any way a state can suppress freedoms through democratic means, according to you?


what is an example of a "freedom". Just assuming since we are from different countries we might have different definitions.


What is an example of "dodging the question with a question"?
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