VOTE RIGHT

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Nobunaga
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Nobunaga »

Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Rising insurance rates (26 year-olds are now "children" - that killed us where I work)
Something like this has been the case with military medical since I first joined. My son and daughter would have been eligible to be cared for by the military at no cost until they were 26 as long as they were attending a college/university. In fact, ObamaCare looks very similar to the military's medical plan, which is OUTSTANDING, by the way.
... Make all citizens serve, and maybe it's a good idea. Until then, no.
Woodruff wrote:The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
... Show me. There is talk now at the convention of banning profits... BANNING profit. The rich (usually white men) aren't paying their fair share... ring any bells?

Woodruff wrote:Other than his college transcripts, which part of his past is hidden?
... Why did he attend Occidental as a foreign student? (not even a "birther" thing).. why?
Woodruff wrote:Seriously? This is a big deal? (going to communist meetings) I've always been under the impression that this is a pretty normal "college thing".
... Did you? I know I didn't. How many of us here did? Shall we set up a poll?
Woodruff wrote:He largely did (inherit this mess).
... 4 years ago, and has added how much to our debt since? How many jobs produced (real ones)?

... Anyway, my list goes well beyond some dumbass racist with a stupid button on his/her hat.

... Cheers.
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Lootifer
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Lootifer »

Nobunaga wrote: ... The badge is racist, worn at the convention of all places. It speaks volumes of the hypocrisy the dems and (many of) the liberals spew every day.

... As for this being the extent of my opinion on the presidential race, as that guy with the whale icon has suggested, of course it is not. I found this badge sadly amusing and demonstrative, and thought I would share.
The badge is as genuinely racist as the people giving this guy a standing ovation.



Also Im a giant racist because one of my favourite track athletes is Christophe Lemaitre. Oh and im a giant racist the other way for being a fan of this guy.

Do we get it yet?
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
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Woodruff
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Woodruff »

Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Rising insurance rates (26 year-olds are now "children" - that killed us where I work)
Something like this has been the case with military medical since I first joined. My son and daughter would have been eligible to be cared for by the military at no cost until they were 26 as long as they were attending a college/university. In fact, ObamaCare looks very similar to the military's medical plan, which is OUTSTANDING, by the way.
... Make all citizens serve, and maybe it's a good idea. Until then, no.
How is that relevant to whether it is a system that is functional and affordable?
Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
... Show me. There is talk now at the convention of banning profits... BANNING profit. The rich (usually white men) aren't paying their fair share... ring any bells?
You're going to have to show me the serious talk of banning profits first. Secondly, you DON'T believe that there is class warfare coming from the rich folks of this nation? Oh, and I wonder if Phatscotty will call you out for the race thing...
Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Other than his college transcripts, which part of his past is hidden?
... Why did he attend Occidental as a foreign student? (not even a "birther" thing).. why?
You tell me...why DID he attend Occidental as a foreign student? Did you know that I can attend the University of Nebraska as a foreign student even though I was born in Nebraska and have lived the majority of my life in Nebraska? Also...is Occidental a college? Do you have anything that's NOT related to his college years (which was my question)?
Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Seriously? This is a big deal? (going to communist meetings) I've always been under the impression that this is a pretty normal "college thing".
... Did you? I know I didn't. How many of us here did? Shall we set up a poll?
I wonder how many in your poll will see that not only did you alter my quote, you didn't even do so in an honest manner? That's what I wonder. I've always considered you pretty level-headed Nobunaga...but frankly this method of yours strikes me not only as being heavily partisan, but also as being extremely desperate to try to make a point that doesn't exist. You should use less cowardly, more reality-based methods.
Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:He largely did (inherit this mess).
... 4 years ago, and has added how much to our debt since? How many jobs produced (real ones)?
Does that change the point of what he inherited?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Juan_Bottom
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Juan_Bottom »

Nobunaga wrote:... 16 Trillion dollars of debt.

... 8%+ unemployment for years
While Romney was governor, Mass dropped to 47th in job creation. He opposed the Auto Bailout, which proved to be a very wise move that saved a shitload of jobs and will create 1 million new technology jobs.
He outsourced Mass call centers and then, with great candor and his eye on the white house, Mitt Romney had all of his records as governor destroyed.
You're right that unemployment is high, but it's recovering and Obama inherited a recession diving into a depression. I personally think it's pretty impressive. I mean, especially when you look at the other Western nations; we're the 7th most competitive economy. Our government is dysfunctional but we're still holding our own. Obama gave tax breaks to small businesses and renewed the government's commitment to small business loans. Employment is growing, even Romney admitted that the economy is actually recovering.
Romney: U.S. economy ‘getting better’ under Obama

... Rising insurance rates (26 year-olds are now "children" - that killed us where I work)
Insurance rates are going down by law. Now 85% of your insurance payment has to go to medical care, as opposed to profits. So the cost goes down while the number of things that you're covered for go up. You've probably seen the image of the insurance refund check that I posted. Millions of refunds have gone out.
Under Romney/Ryan's health care plan, insurance rates will go back up and there will be subsidies for insurance companies as well. You heard Clinton talk about that $700 million in government subsidies that Obama eliminated for good. It's government welfare for corporations that Romney wants to reinstate, even though it does nothing to lower health care costs.
It also means that the number of things that you're covered for will go down.

... Governing through decree (the "Czars" and the EPA)
This is a fair charge to be lobbed for the common man. Government has swelled up so much that the president doesn't have time to look after everything. I've read that Obama has 4 times the number of White House staff that Eisenhower had.
The Czar power actually started under Bush but everyone missed it. Back in the day it was common for Congress to pass bills that increased the Executive Branch's power, but gave Congress oversight of those powers. They would create small oversight committees that the president had to get approval from before using his new power. Bush started using some of these powers without permission, so Congress to him to the Supreme court and Congress lost. SCOTUS said that Congress had no oversight of the Executive branch. The president could do what he wanted in his sphere of influence, and, shebooom, czars were born.
So from a the point of view of the law, this is perfectly ok, though from the point of view of everyone else, this is a little extreme and unfair.

... Continued funding through taxes of bio-fuels (require more energy to produce than they themselves produce)
This one is almost a toss up, but I'll try to be fair to Obama here. Biofuel and ethanol production are separate things, but I'll treat them as the same.
First, the emergence of Bio-Fuel (which Obama strongly supported) created a slew of new technology jobs. If we cut the government subsidies to this industry, we could lose all those jobs when we can't afford to.

Second, it's been a win for Farmers who always need a hand. Particularly since small farms have been on the decline for decades.

Third, while it raises the price of food, it also lowers the price of Fuel and decreases our dependance on Oil. Big oil is actually the strongest lobby for the eradication of subsidies for biofuels and ethanol.

Fourth, the government's continued support of Biofuel alone has encouraged American companys to experiment in science to create new sources for Biofuel. Just by subsidizing one form of Ethanol we've gotten patent claims for unrelated new forms of fuel made from recycled agricultural oils, wood pulp, and animal fats, among others. We're encouraging research and development of other renewable sources that could power America in the future.
Try to remember what happened when the US stopped subsidies for car makers to experiment with electric batteries. They stopped making electric cars while the Japanese auto makers continued their tests and there was a huge technological and sales gap when the Prius hit the market.


... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
It's the other way around - and you should be mad. The average Joe didn't make a fat dime on the recession crisis the way the fat cats did. Besides this - the disparity between the rich and poor has been increasing since the 1970s. Corporate profits are actually at a record high. The Dow is at a record high.
Wages are at a record low. Class warfare has always been a reality. Voltaire said that the only way that the wealthy can live comfortably is if they have an ample supply of poor.

Romney's Economic plan decreases his taxes to around .82% - but it increases your taxes by an average of $2000. How is that fair?

... Disregard for law whenever it suits (GM Grab, the "mandate")
He didn't grab GM, the government bought somewhere around a 40% stake in the company. It's a lot, I know. But the other option was for America to lose GM.
The Government has sold some of its stock when GM went public again, and currently owns just over or around 30%. The government does not (nor could it) influence GM's plans or policies with that stock. GM will buy it back when the stock is equal to what we paid for it. There are millions of American jobs tied to GM, it's important.

... More golf than any president before him, while the country disintegrates
He also spends a lot of time with his family. Always eating dinner together at six.

... Complete lack of transparency
Mostly fair.

... Continued advancement and promotion of dependency
There's no work in America right now, like you say, so I disagree. "Let them eat cake" is the failed strategy of trickle down and no welfare, and "let them pull themselves up by their bootstraps" is the disastrous Hoover strategy. The only fair deal is to help people while our government works to build the economy back up. It's gotta be tough because our competitors like China and India have used this financial crisis to try to fill in the technology and manufacturing gaps that we've left.


... Opposition to voter ID
Voter ID isn't a real thing to protect from voter fraud, it's the new Jim Crow strategy to block Democratic voters. There's .7 cases of voter fraud per state per year.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=177176

... Promoter of "card-check"
Why would anyone oppose card check? Wages have been steadily declining in the US since 1970, which is also when Unions began their decline. We need to do everything that we can to get more people organized. Card check takes the employer out of the election process and requires them to accept the organized labor. And employees can always elect to have a private ballot. If the wal*mart heirs are against it you can bet it's good for us.
I'm not sure what section you even oppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check


Union decline and rising inequality in two charts

Study: Shrinking wages tied to decline in union membership

... Race-baiter
Really?

... Seeming hatred of Israel
He stopped Israel from dragging the US into war. We can't afford it. If it cools US-Israel relations for a while, then so be it. That's Israel's choice, and their government is run by adults. I'd rather have cooled relations with Israel than another war - this time with astronomical gas prices and an enemy that will fight back.

... Anti-profit, anti-wealth (with the exception of friends, donors and family)
Corporations are making record profits right now. So is wall street.... them bastards.


... Hidden past
Romney's Business records are either destroyed or sealed, his taxes are sealed, and his entire staff's records from his tour as governor
were all shredded.
What's Obama hiding? His college thesis?

... No (useful) experience whatsoever
He was President for 4 years.

... Attended and participated in socialist/communist gatherings at university
Is he a Communist now? I'm totally cool with my president learning about politics and political theories during his time at the learning place.

... "I inherited this mess..."
He did though.
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BigBallinStalin
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by BigBallinStalin »

My fellow ConquerClubbers, if you have taken the OP as seriously as I have, you will nevertheless find the following links satisfying:

Lootifer wrote:
Nobunaga wrote: ... The badge is racist, worn at the convention of all places. It speaks volumes of the hypocrisy the dems and (many of) the liberals spew every day.

... As for this being the extent of my opinion on the presidential race, as that guy with the whale icon has suggested, of course it is not. I found this badge sadly amusing and demonstrative, and thought I would share.
The badge is as genuinely racist as the people giving this guy a standing ovation.



Also Im a giant racist because one of my favourite track athletes is Christophe Lemaitre. Oh and im a giant racist the other way for being a fan of this guy.

Do we get it yet?
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Nobunaga
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Nobunaga »

Woodruff wrote:How is that relevant to whether it is a system that is functional and affordable?
... What is relevant is that this law has raised my weekly out-of-pocket for insurance, and it hasn't yet been fully implemented.

Woodruff wrote:You're going to have to show me the serious talk of banning profits first. Secondly, you DON'T believe that there is class warfare coming from the rich folks of this nation? Oh, and I wonder if Phatscotty will call you out for the race thing...
... Here's a video for you - shows us what the men and women in the party, the "average Joe", feels about capitalism.

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/09/06/h ... e-profits/


Woodruff wrote:You tell me...why DID he attend Occidental as a foreign student? Did you know that I can attend the University of Nebraska as a foreign student even though I was born in Nebraska and have lived the majority of my life in Nebraska? Also...is Occidental a college? Do you have anything that's NOT related to his college years (which was my question)?
... Your question was specifically about transcripts, and anyone reading here knows that to be true.

... And don't you think it a bit odd that you would go to Nebraska as a foreign student if indeed you were from Nebraska? Doesn't that sound at all like a possible news story, if even only an interest story, as related to the leader of the most powerful nation on earth (if indeed we still are)? Nada but crickets on that one.

Woodruff wrote:I wonder how many in your poll will see that not only did you alter my quote, you didn't even do so in an honest manner? That's what I wonder. I've always considered you pretty level-headed Nobunaga...but frankly this method of yours strikes me not only as being heavily partisan, but also as being extremely desperate to try to make a point that doesn't exist. You should use less cowardly, more reality-based methods.

... As for dishonest manner, it may seem as such to you and I am sorry about that. Cutting quotes to insert comment at specific points is a pain in the ass and I don't want to waste my time doing that.

... And again... this is the "Leader of the Free World" we're talking about here, not some accounts assistant at some little bank in Cleveland. His activities in college are very important, especially considereing he's done so little since. His activities with the community organizing are also difficult to find detail on... small wonder. Either it is purposefully being ignored to serve him, or it is so absolutely mundane that it has drawn little (none, really) attention.

...
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Nobunaga
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Nobunaga »

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... 16 Trillion dollars of debt.

... 8%+ unemployment for years
While Romney was governor, Mass dropped to 47th in job creation. He opposed the Auto Bailout, which proved to be a very wise move that saved a shitload of jobs and will create 1 million new technology jobs.
He outsourced Mass call centers and then, with great candor and his eye on the white house, Mitt Romney had all of his records as governor destroyed.
You're right that unemployment is high, but it's recovering and Obama inherited a recession diving into a depression. I personally think it's pretty impressive. I mean, especially when you look at the other Western nations; we're the 7th most competitive economy. Our government is dysfunctional but we're still holding our own. Obama gave tax breaks to small businesses and renewed the government's commitment to small business loans. Employment is growing, even Romney admitted that the economy is actually recovering.
Romney: U.S. economy ‘getting better’ under Obama

... Rising insurance rates (26 year-olds are now "children" - that killed us where I work)
Insurance rates are going down by law. Now 85% of your insurance payment has to go to medical care, as opposed to profits. So the cost goes down while the number of things that you're covered for go up. You've probably seen the image of the insurance refund check that I posted. Millions of refunds have gone out.
Under Romney/Ryan's health care plan, insurance rates will go back up and there will be subsidies for insurance companies as well. You heard Clinton talk about that $700 million in government subsidies that Obama eliminated for good. It's government welfare for corporations that Romney wants to reinstate, even though it does nothing to lower health care costs.
It also means that the number of things that you're covered for will go down.

... Governing through decree (the "Czars" and the EPA)
This is a fair charge to be lobbed for the common man. Government has swelled up so much that the president doesn't have time to look after everything. I've read that Obama has 4 times the number of White House staff that Eisenhower had.
The Czar power actually started under Bush but everyone missed it. Back in the day it was common for Congress to pass bills that increased the Executive Branch's power, but gave Congress oversight of those powers. They would create small oversight committees that the president had to get approval from before using his new power. Bush started using some of these powers without permission, so Congress to him to the Supreme court and Congress lost. SCOTUS said that Congress had no oversight of the Executive branch. The president could do what he wanted in his sphere of influence, and, shebooom, czars were born.
So from a the point of view of the law, this is perfectly ok, though from the point of view of everyone else, this is a little extreme and unfair.

... Continued funding through taxes of bio-fuels (require more energy to produce than they themselves produce)
This one is almost a toss up, but I'll try to be fair to Obama here. Biofuel and ethanol production are separate things, but I'll treat them as the same.
First, the emergence of Bio-Fuel (which Obama strongly supported) created a slew of new technology jobs. If we cut the government subsidies to this industry, we could lose all those jobs when we can't afford to.

Second, it's been a win for Farmers who always need a hand. Particularly since small farms have been on the decline for decades.

Third, while it raises the price of food, it also lowers the price of Fuel and decreases our dependance on Oil. Big oil is actually the strongest lobby for the eradication of subsidies for biofuels and ethanol.

Fourth, the government's continued support of Biofuel alone has encouraged American companys to experiment in science to create new sources for Biofuel. Just by subsidizing one form of Ethanol we've gotten patent claims for unrelated new forms of fuel made from recycled agricultural oils, wood pulp, and animal fats, among others. We're encouraging research and development of other renewable sources that could power America in the future.
Try to remember what happened when the US stopped subsidies for car makers to experiment with electric batteries. They stopped making electric cars while the Japanese auto makers continued their tests and there was a huge technological and sales gap when the Prius hit the market.


... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
It's the other way around - and you should be mad. The average Joe didn't make a fat dime on the recession crisis the way the fat cats did. Besides this - the disparity between the rich and poor has been increasing since the 1970s. Corporate profits are actually at a record high. The Dow is at a record high.
Wages are at a record low. Class warfare has always been a reality. Voltaire said that the only way that the wealthy can live comfortably is if they have an ample supply of poor.

Romney's Economic plan decreases his taxes to around .82% - but it increases your taxes by an average of $2000. How is that fair?

... Disregard for law whenever it suits (GM Grab, the "mandate")
He didn't grab GM, the government bought somewhere around a 40% stake in the company. It's a lot, I know. But the other option was for America to lose GM.
The Government has sold some of its stock when GM went public again, and currently owns just over or around 30%. The government does not (nor could it) influence GM's plans or policies with that stock. GM will buy it back when the stock is equal to what we paid for it. There are millions of American jobs tied to GM, it's important.

... More golf than any president before him, while the country disintegrates
He also spends a lot of time with his family. Always eating dinner together at six.

... Complete lack of transparency
Mostly fair.

... Continued advancement and promotion of dependency
There's no work in America right now, like you say, so I disagree. "Let them eat cake" is the failed strategy of trickle down and no welfare, and "let them pull themselves up by their bootstraps" is the disastrous Hoover strategy. The only fair deal is to help people while our government works to build the economy back up. It's gotta be tough because our competitors like China and India have used this financial crisis to try to fill in the technology and manufacturing gaps that we've left.


... Opposition to voter ID
Voter ID isn't a real thing to protect from voter fraud, it's the new Jim Crow strategy to block Democratic voters. There's .7 cases of voter fraud per state per year.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=177176

... Promoter of "card-check"
Why would anyone oppose card check? Wages have been steadily declining in the US since 1970, which is also when Unions began their decline. We need to do everything that we can to get more people organized. Card check takes the employer out of the election process and requires them to accept the organized labor. And employees can always elect to have a private ballot. If the wal*mart heirs are against it you can bet it's good for us.
I'm not sure what section you even oppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check


Union decline and rising inequality in two charts

Study: Shrinking wages tied to decline in union membership

... Race-baiter
Really?

... Seeming hatred of Israel
He stopped Israel from dragging the US into war. We can't afford it. If it cools US-Israel relations for a while, then so be it. That's Israel's choice, and their government is run by adults. I'd rather have cooled relations with Israel than another war - this time with astronomical gas prices and an enemy that will fight back.

... Anti-profit, anti-wealth (with the exception of friends, donors and family)
Corporations are making record profits right now. So is wall street.... them bastards.


... Hidden past
Romney's Business records are either destroyed or sealed, his taxes are sealed, and his entire staff's records from his tour as governor
were all shredded.
What's Obama hiding? His college thesis?

... No (useful) experience whatsoever
He was President for 4 years.

... Attended and participated in socialist/communist gatherings at university
Is he a Communist now? I'm totally cool with my president learning about politics and political theories during his time at the learning place.

... "I inherited this mess..."
He did though.
... Thanks for that.

... Romney is pretty freakin' far from great, but what's a person to do? (I miss you, Herman).

...
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thegreekdog
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by thegreekdog »

Juan_Bottom wrote:That's a pretty poor list though, you have to admit. I can tie some of those more important ones to Romney, and some of the other one's have science on Obama's side. And by science, I mean the formula.
So you're saying Romney and Obama are similar?

Here are my lists of reasons I would not vote for President Obama (in no particular order):

(1) Has indicated he will attempt to raise tax rates on people making over $250,000, without reference to the capital gains rates.
(2) Has continued to prosecute foreign wars and "conflicts." Has indicated he will go to war with Iran.
(3) Has appointed two activist justices to the Supreme Court.
(4) Has signed the Affordable Care Act, a law that raises taxes and is a boondoggle for insurance companies.
(5) Has signed various bailout bills which are corporate boondoggles and were not efficient in "creating jobs."
(6) Has expanded the powers under the Patriot Act, violating our rights to privacy.
(7) Would sign a bill raising the minimum wage.

Here are my lists of reasons I would not vote for Mitt Romney (in no patricular order):

(1) Will continue to prosecute foreign wars and "conflicts." Has indicated willingness to go to war with Iran.
(2) Will likely increase defense spending.
(3) Will likely expand the powers of the Patriot Act.
(4) Was in favor of bailout bills and various other corporate boondoggles.
(5) Would sign a bill banning gay marriage.
(6) Would sign a bill strengthening immigration laws.
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jimboston
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by jimboston »

Army of GOD wrote:Vote white because blacks are all homosexual communists
Dude, some day you're going to be looking for a job... and an employer si going to find out your Web Handle on CC... and see this.

He's not going to "get it".
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jimboston
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by jimboston »

Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
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GreecePwns
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by GreecePwns »

jay_a2j wrote:+5 trillion debt
fired CEO of private company ??? Never heard of this
Turned his back on Israel (though he actually didn't do this, I wish he would)
Turned pro gay marriage just in time for re-election bid (regardless
Gas $4/ gal
unemployment out of control (though lower than before)
government run health care (he didn't actually do this)
benefit increase for welfare while the middle class suffers (congress approved)
I color-coded your list: red is bad, blue is good, and black is something completely out of the president's control.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.
Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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GreecePwns
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by GreecePwns »

jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
Isn't every piece of economic legislation simply a taking of resources from one class of people and reassigning it to another? Then it is class warfare (though not directly violent, only indirectly until dissent occurs).
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.
Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Woodruff
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Woodruff »

jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
I actually wouldn't disagree with you that most of the rhetoric comes from the left regarding "class warfare". However, I would counter that in saying that most of the way things are handled regarding "class warfare" comes from the right. So on the left, you've got people talking about it, and on the right you've got people doing it. The right doesn't need to talk about it, because they're using their money to make it happen.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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thegreekdog
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by thegreekdog »

Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
I actually wouldn't disagree with you that most of the rhetoric comes from the left regarding "class warfare". However, I would counter that in saying that most of the way things are handled regarding "class warfare" comes from the right. So on the left, you've got people talking about it, and on the right you've got people doing it. The right doesn't need to talk about it, because they're using their money to make it happen.
Are you assuming that the left doesn't use money to make class warfare happen? I'm not talking about the talking points stuff (like we need to redistribute wealth) because those things are just that, talking points. There has been much made of how the president gets his campaign funds. I've indicated in another thread that the Democrats get money from the same sources as Republicans. So it appears that the rich are indifferent as to whether their campaign contributions go to Republicans and Democrats; therefore, is it accurate to say that "[the right is] using their money to make it happen?"
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GreecePwns
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by GreecePwns »

Do you consider the Democrats "right" or not?
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Woodruff
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Woodruff »

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
I actually wouldn't disagree with you that most of the rhetoric comes from the left regarding "class warfare". However, I would counter that in saying that most of the way things are handled regarding "class warfare" comes from the right. So on the left, you've got people talking about it, and on the right you've got people doing it. The right doesn't need to talk about it, because they're using their money to make it happen.
Are you assuming that the left doesn't use money to make class warfare happen? I'm not talking about the talking points stuff (like we need to redistribute wealth) because those things are just that, talking points. There has been much made of how the president gets his campaign funds. I've indicated in another thread that the Democrats get money from the same sources as Republicans. So it appears that the rich are indifferent as to whether their campaign contributions go to Republicans and Democrats; therefore, is it accurate to say that "[the right is] using their money to make it happen?"
That depends entirely on which Democrats you're talking about. Honestly, I can only think of some few Democrats off the top of my head that I would consider to be from the left (even moderate left).

And no, I wouldn't say that the left isn't using their money at all to make class warfare happen...but they don't seem to be throwing nearly the amounts at it as, for instance, the Koch brothers are.
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by comic boy »

I dont think that many people in the USA actually appreciate how right wing their politics are , by any objective international standards the present administration is clearly right of centre. I understand the motivation of the TV talking heads who pretend that the President is rabidly left wing but cannot fathom how anybody could be stupid enough to believe such nonsense.
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by BigBallinStalin »

GreecePwns wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:+5 trillion debt
fired CEO of private company ??? Never heard of this
Turned his back on Israel (though he actually didn't do this, I wish he would)
Turned pro gay marriage just in time for re-election bid (regardless
Gas $4/ gal
[GP - black]unemployment out of control (though lower than before)
[GP - black]government run health care (he didn't actually do this)
[GP - black]benefit increase for welfare while the middle class suffers(congress approved)
I color-coded your list: red is bad, blue is good, and black is something completely out of the president's control.
I color-coded your color-coded code.

Not necessarily.
(1) Unemployment: Obama pushed for extending unemployment "insurance'/payouts for over 2 years. This creates the incentive to not formally appear as employed on the Bureau of Labor stats. For example, if 50% of your former income currently is derived from unemployment checks and welfare entitlements, then it's easy to supplement an additional 25% by getting paid under the table. In other words, many people are avoiding taxes on income while receiving "unemployment" insurance. (this is an empirical matter, and unfortunately I can't find that econometric research on unemployment and unemployment benefits). Unsurprisingly, if you subsidize unemployment, you get more of it, and Obama strongly pushed for continuing unemployment benefits, which is my basic point here.

(2) Government run health care: Why do you say that he didn't actually do this? What do you mean?

(3) benefit increase for welfare while the middle class suffers.
I agree that Congress approved this, but the president also the power to veto and the ability to threaten to veto, thus influencing the decision-making of Congress. Apparently, Obama exercises some responsibility over this. However, it's not exactly clear what jay means by "benefit increase for welfare" (which welfare?), but I do agree that the middle class is suffering, (but that's related to the previous series of state intervention and interest groups in facilitating the housing bubble and other unintended consequences).




And, "Turned his back on Israel" is somewhat beyond his control, and although you may wish for him to be able to exert some control, perhaps I can convince you as to why this is wishful thinking, and why the Executive is not really the Commander-in-Chief if his goals are in strong conflict with the National Security apparatus.

Basically, the "bureaucrat apparatus concerning national security," which is largely the Dept. of Defense, State Dept., and Obama's NSC, create a mental environment which can be crudely summarized as such:

"Don't be Chamberlain."

The US tends to be hawkish--compared to almost all developed countries--because it tends to have a very low tolerance on perceived risk. Iran is viewed as an agitator in areas which the US is trying to exert its control, so the "national security apparatus" will continue pushing for more intervention/containment. Obama may have some ideal on how to handle this situation, but if his goals depart from the NS apparatus' goals, then Obama's plans will most likely never be realized.

In other words, US foreign policy is usually not influenced by public opinion (in general), and at times, can hardly be influenced by the Executive.

Would it be good for the US to back away from Israel? In my opinion, no, but my defense is largely concerned about short-term problems. In the longer run, my idealistic position is "yes," but the short-term costs and risks lead me to conclude with a stolid "no."


[2 edits for poor grammar and sloppy writing. :( ]
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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BigBallinStalin
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
I actually wouldn't disagree with you that most of the rhetoric comes from the left regarding "class warfare". However, I would counter that in saying that most of the way things are handled regarding "class warfare" comes from the right. So on the left, you've got people talking about it, and on the right you've got people doing it. The right doesn't need to talk about it, because they're using their money to make it happen.
Are you assuming that the left doesn't use money to make class warfare happen? I'm not talking about the talking points stuff (like we need to redistribute wealth) because those things are just that, talking points. There has been much made of how the president gets his campaign funds. I've indicated in another thread that the Democrats get money from the same sources as Republicans. So it appears that the rich are indifferent as to whether their campaign contributions go to Republicans and Democrats; therefore, is it accurate to say that "[the right is] using their money to make it happen?"
That depends entirely on which Democrats you're talking about. Honestly, I can only think of some few Democrats off the top of my head that I would consider to be from the left (even moderate left).

And no, I wouldn't say that the left isn't using their money at all to make class warfare happen...but they don't seem to be throwing nearly the amounts at it as, for instance, the Koch brothers are.
Since the topic is the role of financing activities and class warfare, then how is Koch Industries Inc. (KIC) related to all this?
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by natty dread »

I'm going to vote for obama.
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jay_a2j
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by jay_a2j »

GreecePwns wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:+5 trillion debt
fired CEO of private company ??? Never heard of this
Turned his back on Israel (though he actually didn't do this, I wish he would)
Turned pro gay marriage just in time for re-election bid (regardless
Gas $4/ gal
unemployment out of control (though lower than before)
government run health care (he didn't actually do this)
benefit increase for welfare while the middle class suffers (congress approved)
I color-coded your list: red is bad, blue is good, and black is something completely out of the president's control.
debt: we agree is bad (5T in 3 1/2 years!) fastest debt growth in history of country
fired CEO: google it
Israel: he has been the worst pres EVER concerning Israel. You may want to turn your back on Israel but some of us know the consequences of doing so
unemployment: the numbers lie. They don't take into account those OFF the books because the benefits have ended who are still unemployed. (Some estimates put the actual number close to 20%)
health care: are you serious? This he can truly say, "I did that!" Which most Americans are against.
welfare: you didn't do that, someone else helped you do that, you lazy bum!


Nobunga also listed many more reasons to steer clear of Obama this election. Take off the rose colored glasses, Obama has failed.
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GreecePwns
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by GreecePwns »

(1) Unemployment: Obama pushed for extending unemployment "insurance'/payouts for over 2 years. This creates the incentive to not formally appear as employed on the Bureau of Labor stats. For example, if 50% of your former income currently is derived from unemployment checks and welfare entitlements, then it's easy to supplement an additional 25% by getting paid under the table. In other words, many people are avoiding taxes on income while receiving "unemployment" insurance. (this is an empirical matter, and unfortunately I can't find that econometric research on unemployment and unemployment benefits). Unsurprisingly, if you subsidize unemployment, you get more of it, and Obama strongly pushed for continuing unemployment benefits, which is my basic point here.
Agreed, that was a rushed section of my post (well, the whole post was rushed, but anyway) which I retract. Consider it red.
(2) Government run health care: Why do you say that he didn't actually do this? What do you mean?
Well, what does the poster in question mean? I presume its some lazily repeated rhetoric about socialism, which is way off the mark from what is actually happening.
(3) benefit increase for welfare while the middle class suffers.
I agree that Congress approved this, but the president also the power to veto and the ability to threaten to veto, thus influencing the decision-making of Congress. Apparently, Obama exercises some responsibility over this. However, it's not exactly clear what jay means by "benefit increase for welfare" (which welfare?), but I do agree that the middle class is suffering, (but that's related to the previous series of state intervention and interest groups in facilitating the housing bubble and other unintended consequences).
Agreed on the last part, but its hard to pin the blame on Obama here when even Republicans as (supposedly) fiscally conservative as Paul Ryan voted to extend benefits in 2008 and 2009.
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thegreekdog
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by thegreekdog »

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Class warfare as primary strategy - hate and jealousy based
The class warfare isn't coming from the liberals these days.
Dude... did you listen to Elizabeth Warren speak?

You need two sides for any "war"... but I believe most of the rhetoric comes from the Left.
I actually wouldn't disagree with you that most of the rhetoric comes from the left regarding "class warfare". However, I would counter that in saying that most of the way things are handled regarding "class warfare" comes from the right. So on the left, you've got people talking about it, and on the right you've got people doing it. The right doesn't need to talk about it, because they're using their money to make it happen.
Are you assuming that the left doesn't use money to make class warfare happen? I'm not talking about the talking points stuff (like we need to redistribute wealth) because those things are just that, talking points. There has been much made of how the president gets his campaign funds. I've indicated in another thread that the Democrats get money from the same sources as Republicans. So it appears that the rich are indifferent as to whether their campaign contributions go to Republicans and Democrats; therefore, is it accurate to say that "[the right is] using their money to make it happen?"
That depends entirely on which Democrats you're talking about. Honestly, I can only think of some few Democrats off the top of my head that I would consider to be from the left (even moderate left).

And no, I wouldn't say that the left isn't using their money at all to make class warfare happen...but they don't seem to be throwing nearly the amounts at it as, for instance, the Koch brothers are.
I wasn't clear so that accounts for this misunderstanding. Here's where I'm coming from (in helpful list format):

(1) People think the Democrat Party is in favor of class warfare (e.g. spreading the wealth around). This comes from rhetoric from both the left and the right.
(2) (1) is incorrect. The Democrat Party is not in favor of spreading the wealth around.
(3) Exhibit A to prove (2): Democrats get their money from rich people. Further, the rich people who give to the Republicans also give to the Democrats.
(4) The Democrats have not been successful in increasing taxes on rich people. Furthermore, the Democrats' proposal to increase tax rates on rich people is with respect to tax rates on ordinary income, not on capital gains. The type of rich people who donate to campaigns tend to be rich people who make their money from capital gains, not ordinary income. Furthermore furthermore, the Democrats have never suggested we raise the tax rate on corporations. Furthermore furthermore furthermore, the Democrats have suggested we eliminate tax "loopholes" but not in their entirety (I have never heard a Democrat opine that we need a flat tax.

In sum, like others, I'm of the opinion that Democrats are not leftist enough to be considered serious contenders in the realm of class warfare (other than to say inflammatory things that have little meaning behind them).
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Lootifer »

Lame obama discussion swamped my awesome point in the OP-relevant argument :(
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Re: VOTE RIGHT

Post by Juan_Bottom »

Actually Obama's 2013 budget plan proposed doubling the Capital Gains tax to 40%, but Senate Democrats decreased it to a 5% increase to try to persuade Republicans to go along with it. But it didn't work, so the Dems switched to their "let all tax cuts expire" strategy. They did this because it would automatically cut government spending as well, making the Republican pledge not to raise taxes seem worthless. You prolly remember Mitch McConnell's soundbite “This isn’t an economic agenda. It’s an ideological crusade.”
Their plan also includes raising the Estate tax to 45%.
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