Batman : Arkham City [Day 4] And we're back

[jak111]

fastposted, forgot about jak, he was in matrix mafia as well. let's see what neo has tosay about merovingien!

I was Trinity, Doom was Neo.

But I still am pondering whether we need a full claim from Edoc or not >.<

[Iliad]

Sorry guys, cookies trouble kept being logged out of CC. Technical issues over.

betiko's behaviour is just baffling to me. He collates a full flavour list, a list not really needed on day 1 and i don't see what why it was made. He responds aggressively and invites pressure onto himself essentially and then under the lightest pressure roleclaims, but only the flavour.

i'll save town some time as you are most probably going to continue this nonsense. I am Bane

you will not learn anymore from me, not even if someone fakeclaims my name. but I'm eager to see if any scum has the balls on day 1 to step up and fakeclaim!

Notice how assumes that he's immediately out of the clear. Not so fast.

Looks to me like a scum newbie who got a fakeclaim as part of his role, and was overeager and wanted to role claim as soon as possible thinking that'd make him in the "clear".

Let's get one thing clear about themed games. Fakeclaims given to mafia are very likely. Whenver I make themed games I usually make the decision to leave out a few relatively important characters out so mafia has credible fakeclaims. Otherwise it's endgame and the claims are Hermione,Ron, Professor Mcgonnagall and Groundskeeper #4 from Book 3. It's entirely possible that Bane is fakeclaim and I'm not a fan of assuming guilt based on flavour claims. Bekito's actual actions have been very scumy.

vote bekito

[edocsil]

Ah yes, that was what it was. I recall it a little more clearly now. IIRC everyone else wanted to side with the Agents, while I was the one preaching that Neo could f*ck us up for that. We could talk at nights and behaved similar to a scum faction until I forced our cards and pretty married us to the town. You were never pressured much, true, but your posts were aggressive, and you were a fan of OMGUS then as well.

As far as "goldfish memory" well, it was 6 months ago, sue me.

[betiko]

Ah yes, that was what it was. I recall it a little more clearly now. IIRC everyone else wanted to side with the Agents, while I was the one preaching that Neo could f*ck us up for that. We could talk at nights and behaved similar to a scum faction until I forced our cards and pretty married us to the town. You were never pressured much, true, but your posts were aggressive, and you were a fan of OMGUS then as well.

As far as "goldfish memory" well, it was 6 months ago, sue me.

lool, you were the one who wanted to marry us with town? i did all the negociation with them while you were quite reluctant at first, i can try to pull out pms if you like or you can ask other towns from that game, which ended 2 month ago, not 6. anyway, this is off topic and I'm done defending myself, if you guys think it's the right decision to kill me go ahead. I've given enough arguments and as it's day 1 people start mental masturbation about anything. it will just be funny when you will see my role show up.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Ah yes, that was what it was. I recall it a little more clearly now. IIRC everyone else wanted to side with the Agents, while I was the one preaching that Neo could f*ck us up for that. We could talk at nights and behaved similar to a scum faction until I forced our cards and pretty married us to the town. You were never pressured much, true, but your posts were aggressive, and you were a fan of OMGUS then as well.

As far as "goldfish memory" well, it was 6 months ago, sue me.

So you are now saying that he was aggressive, OMGUSy and scummy even when he was playing a non-scum role? Sounds almost like a defense of his actions this game (even though thats not how you intend it). Do any of you guys wanna link me to some pages of the Matrix thread for reference? If not, I'll probably just read a random batch of it.

When I first read your post, edoc, I was glad that someone could come forth with some greater info on betiko. If what you said had been true, it would have made him a much more comfortable candidate for the day 1 lynch. But screwing up someone's alignment in your story is a pretty big mistake to make and it completely changes the way your argument sounds (especially since few people would actually go back and look). Not only that, but your post is basically calling for the lynch.

I really wish I could place votes on both of you right now. Thankfully most people already have Betiko under pressure so I can just vote edocsil.

[betiko]

Ah yes, that was what it was. I recall it a little more clearly now. IIRC everyone else wanted to side with the Agents, while I was the one preaching that Neo could f*ck us up for that. We could talk at nights and behaved similar to a scum faction until I forced our cards and pretty married us to the town. You were never pressured much, true, but your posts were aggressive, and you were a fan of OMGUS then as well.

As far as "goldfish memory" well, it was 6 months ago, sue me.

So you are now saying that he was aggressive, OMGUSy and scummy even when he was playing a non-scum role? Sounds almost like a defense of his actions this game (even though thats not how you intend it). Do any of you guys wanna link me to some pages of the Matrix thread for reference? If not, I'll probably just read a random batch of it.

When I first read your post, edoc, I was glad that someone could come forth with some greater info on betiko. If what you said had been true, it would have made him a much more comfortable candidate for the day 1 lynch. But screwing up someone's alignment in your story is a pretty big mistake to make and it completely changes the way your argument sounds (especially since few people would actually go back and look). Not only that, but your post is basically calling for the lynch.

I really wish I could place votes on both of you right now. Thankfully most people already have Betiko under pressure so I can just vote edocsil.

actually all his lies about matrix mafia are done in front of 5 or 6 witnesses who played/modded it now playing arkham. I'd just want to hear a single one of them backing up what he's saying!

[strike wolf]

Well this just got interesting. Edocsil mistook the situation. He corrected himself when prompted by Betiko but continued to suggest that Betiko was trying to align himself with scum. Honestly, this sounds a lot like a scum slip to me. I'll wait just a bit to see if Jonty or Jak or anyone else involved with that game have better insight into this though (I could possibly skim through the game but that would take too much time).

On the other side of the argument, that could technically be considered Betiko's second OMGus and it is true that 3rd parties often as not do not play like town however unlike the first the reason behind voting Edocsil seems solid and third parties often don't play like scum either. Most third parties will act mostly neutral and stay to the side, while at least experienced or smart third parties try to act more townish or give away that they are third party early on in hopes that town won't find them worth wasting a lynch and scum won't go out of their way to kill a potential future asset.

[betiko]

here is the list of players who were involved in both mafia and that can give their opinion about what actually happend in that game. also, note that I always do lists in all the games I play, it's just my gameplay.

safariguy5
betiko
ghostly447 (replaced)
edocsil
jontyt125
LSU Tiger Josh (replaced)
vodean
jak111

fastposted by strike. we mass claimed third party late in the game which narrowed down a lot scums and cult and made us win (town+third party) pretty easy.

[jonty125]

I can confirm, I was third party with betiko; but I don't remember him playing like that; but it was six months ago.

[betiko]

here is the link to that game:

viewtopic.php?f=610&t=166863&start=0

it finished just before july, so that's exactly 2 and a half month ago not 6 (although i guess it depends if you count when it actually started, which might have been april or may.. still relatively fresh in memories although you guys play way too many mafia games at the same time! )

[safariguy5]

I suppose I have to be...flattered you guys are still talking about my game. For the record, pmc was recruited by cult, so you all knew who cult was. At that point, with mafia seriously diminished, third party just had to see which side between town and cult was going to win.

But that's beside the point.

What I find exceedingly curious is that you guys are bringing in a full discussion of an archived game that really has no bearing on this game. Not only are you guys overanalyzing the meta on a pretty old game (I consider anything that get's moved to archive old), but other people are actually trying to use it build cases on one of you two. Really??!!! I personally reference older games if I see similarities, but I wouldn't use meta reasons based solely on an old game to construct an entire case.

FOS edoc for arguing with betiko about it.
unvote vote betiko for bringing it up in the first case and then trying to redirect pressure onto edoc using an alignment argument.
IGMEOY strike for seriously buying into it.

[betiko]

I suppose I have to be...flattered you guys are still talking about my game. For the record, pmc was recruited by cult, so you all knew who cult was. At that point, with mafia seriously diminished, third party just had to see which side between town and cult was going to win.

But that's beside the point.

What I find exceedingly curious is that you guys are bringing in a full discussion of an archived game that really has no bearing on this game. Not only are you guys overanalyzing the meta on a pretty old game (I consider anything that get's moved to archive old), but other people are actually trying to use it build cases on one of you two. Really??!!! I personally reference older games if I see similarities, but I wouldn't use meta reasons based solely on an old game to construct an entire case.

FOS edoc for arguing with betiko about it.
unvote vote betiko for bringing it up in the first case and then trying to redirect pressure onto edoc using an alignment argument.
IGMEOY strike for seriously buying into it.

so basically edoc brings it up skimming about the fact that we were scums together, and inventing stuff from that game and I have no right to respond? reread this thread for christ sake before trying to find a bad axcuse to vote for me!

Alright, few things here. I have been scum with betiko once, and this hyper-aggressive attitude (gameplay, not personal attacks) was the same when he was scum. The list didn't make sense, especially with the knowledge of fakes in limbo, and the abrupt retaliation less so. Always best to leave that until a scum gets killed/hung with a fake.

Also, bane is a VERY minor character in Asylum imo. Not worth the early claim, especially when he is likely a strongman or something. IMO claims without role will be pointless here. There are many more characters then there are players in the game, and we will need to trace night actions to determine guilt in many cases.

Unvote Vote Betiko

Pardon the brief post, in a rush and needed to get it out.

[edocsil]

Betico, no one could look at the logs and see my point.

Merovingen (Third Party Survivor)- betiko
Persephone (Third Party Survivor)- SPARTACUS1974
Trainman (Third Party Busdriver)- edocsil
Twin 1 (Third Party Sibling with Twin 2, Bodyguard)- Leehar
Twin 2 (Third Party Sibling with Twin 1, Bodyguard)- jonty125

Were the people who had access to our conversations, none of the other players would have been able to see a thing. Jonty is the only one who verify the story at all, though others are not playing here. Our WC was to kill the oracle or survive, and for the rest of the 3rd parties there was little desire to work with the town due to the alt wc. Late game once it was obvious that the town had the power and we could easily win with them you were perfectly inclined to not kill the rolecop and side with the town. Informed minor faction is close enough to scum that I was having difficulty remembering the exact circumstances without double checking. In any event, I will refrain from discussing my opinions on meta if this is dropped, my comments were in error.

Due to school starting up and the release of Guild Wars 2 I have had less time for mafia and some of my posts have been less solidly thought through and I apologize. As Saf said the meta on a game that started 6 months ago is likely a poor choice for extrapolation. I rescind all the comments on the Meta, however my points and the points of others with the early claim, minor character, and no role remain uncontested. To my eyes it screams of a fake. My role at least came with enough context to realize where the characters were coming from, and I am not much of a batman guy. I see the assumption that Bane was so important as a fake claim fake claim due to the lack of flavor often included with fakes. If someones claim sticks out like this it should be pursued, not allowed to slide because I made a foolish mistake on meta .

[Nendreel]

Well, I've been re-reading the thread and I'm starting to wonder if Betiko might actually have a Fool role. It would explain the aggressive responses and half-assed claim, especially the "fine, then lynch me" lines I saw a couple of times.

eh either way, Betiko has made it clear that the only way we get more info is through a lynch or investigation.

So do we push for a lynch or look at someone else?
I'd like to see what other cases are floating around so far.

[jonty125]

I'd like to see what other cases are floating around so far.

Why don't you look for yourself, or construct one?

[Nendreel]

I'd like to see what other cases are floating around so far.

Why don't you look for yourself, or construct one?

I am looking myself, but it would hardly be amiss if someone posted something in the meantime.

[vodean]

my my, defensive aren't you?
You make it sound like an either/or senario, "shut up and talk about unrelated subjects!"
And yet, you completely gloss over my actual critique, I asked, how does it help to list potential town names?

This early on day 1 this is good enough for me. Vote betiko.

this post is stupid enough for me spiesr. unvote vote spiesr. You feel like pressuring me, I think you sound like a good client with all the mod ass licking and the quick stuborn bandwagoning.

I had a specific, albeit not explicitly mentioned, goal in mind when I joined the bandwagon on you. That was to ensure to the the game quickly made the full transition to serious discussion and that we had something to talk about. As Shaggy just said, we only have four days left until the deadline. In order to achieve a "good" lynch today we need the discussion to start as soon as it can. (Especially if we want to option of pursuing someone other than the first candidate we find to remain viable.) As such I decided to move on the first halfway serious case anyone comes up with, either supporting and pushing it forward, or attacking it's maker. /'s thing on you came up first, I decided that hitting you looked more favorable than the reverse. It is of course a shit case, but you know Day 1, however it seems to be accomplishing my goal and things are starting to move forward. If you have a compelling argument for how this makes me scummy please present it as soon a possible so that we may have more things to work with. As it stands your weak OMGUSesc reaction isn't really helping you much in my view.

I dont remember exactly what i saw, and in truth, i dont fully see it any more. but it was to do with jumping on whatever BW that came along, and you also do what you are accusing me of, voting without reason -- except worse. you quote another person, jump on their BW, and give no reason.

I suspect that edoc and betiko are actually talking about a currently active game and are just trying to cover their asses. I was in matrix mafia as a VT, not 3rd party. but you all seemed rather aggressive. betiko does not ALWAYS play aggressively, however, as he seems to want us to think, just in games where he is anti-town and two currently active ones. here i'd say they are both scum or town (or 3rd party) and are trying to get on the same page. they might be masoned. FOS betiko, but i think my vote stays on spiesr

[edocsil]

Here I'd say they are both scum or town (or 3rd party) and are trying to get on the same page. they might be masoned. FOS betiko, but i think my vote stays on spiesr

Werp? Me and Betiko? We are trying to hang one another, not make friends.

[betiko]

my my, defensive aren't you?
You make it sound like an either/or senario, "shut up and talk about unrelated subjects!"
And yet, you completely gloss over my actual critique, I asked, how does it help to list potential town names?

This early on day 1 this is good enough for me. Vote betiko.

this post is stupid enough for me spiesr. unvote vote spiesr. You feel like pressuring me, I think you sound like a good client with all the mod ass licking and the quick stuborn bandwagoning.

I had a specific, albeit not explicitly mentioned, goal in mind when I joined the bandwagon on you. That was to ensure to the the game quickly made the full transition to serious discussion and that we had something to talk about. As Shaggy just said, we only have four days left until the deadline. In order to achieve a "good" lynch today we need the discussion to start as soon as it can. (Especially if we want to option of pursuing someone other than the first candidate we find to remain viable.) As such I decided to move on the first halfway serious case anyone comes up with, either supporting and pushing it forward, or attacking it's maker. /'s thing on you came up first, I decided that hitting you looked more favorable than the reverse. It is of course a shit case, but you know Day 1, however it seems to be accomplishing my goal and things are starting to move forward. If you have a compelling argument for how this makes me scummy please present it as soon a possible so that we may have more things to work with. As it stands your weak OMGUSesc reaction isn't really helping you much in my view.

I dont remember exactly what i saw, and in truth, i dont fully see it any more. but it was to do with jumping on whatever BW that came along, and you also do what you are accusing me of, voting without reason -- except worse. you quote another person, jump on their BW, and give no reason.

I suspect that edoc and betiko are actually talking about a currently active game and are just trying to cover their asses. I was in matrix mafia as a VT, not 3rd party. but you all seemed rather aggressive. betiko does not ALWAYS play aggressively, however, as he seems to want us to think, just in games where he is anti-town and two currently active ones. here i'd say they are both scum or town (or 3rd party) and are trying to get on the same page. they might be masoned. FOS betiko, but i think my vote stays on spiesr

loooooooooool we are either town, scum or 3rd party! you blow my mind again vodean.

[jak111]

loooooooooool we are either town, scum or 3rd party! you blow my mind again vodean.

Nooo... I thought they were 4th party, damn it! Why am I wrong!

Vote Betico though. "I am Bane, you wont get anything else out of me" isn't going to fly. We can wifom whether or not he is in the game, but just claiming a name wont work for a full claim.

Keeping my vote on Betico, looking for a full claim there, not a name claim only.

FOS Edoc

[ghostly447]

Please dont act silly you two. It is clear that Vodean is trying to link Betiko and Edoc as both being partners, not stating that they are mafia town or 3rd party in general. FOS both you for that. That is just being stupid or skimming- Pick your poison.

[spiesr]

Please dont act silly you two. It is clear that Vodean is trying to link Betiko and Edoc as both being partners, not stating that they are mafia town or 3rd party in general. FOS both you for that. That is just being stupid or skimming- Pick your poison.

Of perhaps intending to dismiss Vodean's statement and bury it with a joke?

Ok, the basic parts are that Bane uses a chemical called Venom to make himself stronger. TITAN is a derivative of Venom developed by the Joker, and Bane doesn't like that. He offers to team up with Batman to destroy the last twelve containers of it (each taking six). Once Batman has destroyed his six and meets back up with Bane, we find that (big surprise) Bane has double crossed the Bat and instead of destroying his six Bane has collected them and attacks Batman. A dodge roll and a batarang later and Bane is contained.

That is the total sum of Bane's role in the game.

Okay thanks. This coupled with his desire to avoid claiming his exact role leaves me with the feeling that betiko may be some sort of third party here. Of course, the necessary followup question to that thought is: "Is a a threat to the town in that role, thus necessitating that he be lynched now, or is he a role that we can live with so that our time would be better spent looking for a straight up scum?"

[gregwolf121]

well at the very least lots of discussion which is good, im sure that this will help us, but i see lots of flak flying but i will wait for a more clear distinction before voting, ie it seems to me that two players are going at one another, one or the other may be right but i can't tell which now

yes im just posting so all know that im here and watching

[new guy1]

In my opinion, we should have done what Betiko was saying to do and moved on to see if there was a better case instead of arguing whether he is lynchworthy or not. If at the end of the day we have a better lead, lynch them, if at the end of the day we came up with the shit end of the stick and didnt get anything, pressure Betiko for an actual role claim. Of course I am a little bit late on this, but this is a lesson to be learned for future days to come, since unless night actions prove to be efficient and get us a lead, we will have nothing but betiko, speiser, vodean or edocsil to go on, which even though there are alot of names on that list, there is not alot of information on any of them.

[ShaggyDan]

Internet is playing up. Can post tomorrow.