Only for anti-evolutionists

[jonesthecurl]

After this post I intend to say no more in this thread. You other folks who continually engage lionz, viceroy, and others in debate stay out too. Anyone who believes that evolution is a bunch of lies and misinformation, please leap in.
See, the thing is that you seem to have little in common other than that "Darwin is wrong" and "Evolution is JUST a theory". Lets see how much common ground you actually have.

Below are some of the questions I would love to see you examine and see where you agree and where you don't. I'm really really not trolling, but genuinely interested. Please science-doesn't-need-God guys, and you too Player, stay out.

I. How old is the earth?
2. How old is the universe?
3. How old is humanity?
4. Were there ever dinosaurs?
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when?
6. Who built the pyramids?
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information?
8. Will there be a rapture?
9. Are these the last days?
10. Are there really angels?
11. Are there really aliens?
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens?
13. Is Satan real?

I'll leave it at 13 for aesthetic reasons. I have more questions I'd like to see you debate between yourselves, but let's see how this goes first.

Once again: anti-evolutionists only in this thread PLEASE. SO often they meet a barrage of questions which they seriously can't be expected to deal with all at once. I truly want to see how much common ground there is between these guys.

[Funkyterrance]

I'm not an anti-evolutionist but I'm not anti-creationist either. I'm open minded and I don't base my life on theories, one way or another. Theories are meant as tools, not restrictions, imho. Did I break the #1 rule of this thread? Wall me Jonesy if I did and I'll delete it.

[puppydog85]

I. How old is the earth? around 6000 years old
2. How old is the universe? -3 days from earth
3. How old is humanity? -5 days from earth
4. Were there ever dinosaurs? yes
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when? mostly (depends if you think there might be some in the Congo ect. ect.), the flood
6. Who built the pyramids? Egyptians
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information? Don't think I've heard of them
8. Will there be a rapture? Yes
9. Are these the last days? Too open ended, but to answer what I think you are asking: no, they already happened.
10. Are there really angels? strictly speaking angelos in the Bible just means messenger, humans are often called messengers of God. If you mean heavenly messengers though, then yes.
11. Are there really aliens? Not that I know of
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens? ? One is known to exist the other is not known
13. Is Satan real? Yes

[Funkyterrance]

I. How old is the earth? I don't care
2. How old is the universe? Really Don't care
3. How old is humanity? Don't care
4. Were there ever dinosaurs? Probably
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when? Are you talking about loch ness and stuff? If not I don't care
6. Who built the pyramids? People
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information? No Idea
8. Will there be a rapture? Hopefully
9. Are these the last days? Kinda Vague question
10. Are there really angels? Another vague one
11. Are there really aliens? No idea, but it's a cool thought
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens? I'm under the impression that they are not related
13. Is Satan real? Hopefully

[jonesthecurl]

OK, I'm bumping this thread at the specific request of Viceroy.

He said:

Honestly if you have a question that has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, then may I suggest that you start a new thread on that question and send me an invite to that thread and I would be happy to answer.

So: I only want people who believe the theory of evolution to be a mistake , a lie, a hoax, whatever, to post in here.
For the purposes of this thread we will assume that everyone who posts in here from now on accepts that. You don't need to convince anybody of that.
I don't want any mocking of those people. If you must mock them (and I have myself from time to time), do it in another thread.

I am seriously interested to see how far people who deny evolution agree on other things. You guys should be interested yourselves, surely.

[betiko]

i expected more from people in this thread.. the idea sure was interesting!

[Viceroy63]

I. How old is the earth?

This may sound like a simple question but to answer it requires understanding something about How science dates rocks and fossils and the imperfection of the science of Carbon dating. Here is a good link to read up on that.

http://www.foolishfaith.com/book_chap3_radio.asp

Also understanding something about how the Bible creation account is distorted by so many believers because the Bible is taken too literally and too many assumptions made where the Bible makes no such statements of any "facts."

So on both sides, Science and the Bible, you have very grave assumptions that distorts the truth.

I can't give you an exact answer to your query, at least not with out going into both the Science and the Bible and then only a very rough estimate.

If that is what you would like for me to do? Otherwise all I can say is that the earth is older than 6,000 Years old but not more than 4.5 billions.

I arrive at this from a some what detailed understanding of the observable facts in both Science and the Bible.

If you would like we could explore this questions further and what facts I am mentioning here. Otherwise tomorrow I will answer another question on your list.

[2dimes]

I. How old is the earth?

not more than 4.5 billions.

You can't know that.

Prove it to Jones!

Edit: I stand by my statement but probably should have wrote, "How do you know that?"

[kentington]

I. How old is the earth? I am not sure. The wording in the Bible suggest that the Earth was created before the first days.
2. How old is the universe? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." This doesn't really compare ages.
3. How old is humanity? I think about 6,000 years. I would have to actually count it out.
4. Were there ever dinosaurs? Yes. I believe Job mentions dinosaurs and possibly dragons.
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when? Good question, perhaps not all have gone. I would assume that they died before Noah created the arch.
6. Who built the pyramids? Are you asking this because of Aliens? I know Egyptians had slaves and they probably did most of the building.
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information? Never heard of it.
8. Will there be a rapture? I believe so.
9. Are these the last days? Depends on what you mean by the last days. If you mean, do I believe the Tribulation mentioned will happen soon, then yes.
10. Are there really angels? Yes
11. Are there really aliens? I don't believe so. In the sense of other beings living on another planet. But technically Angels are alien.
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens? ^
13. Is Satan real? Yes

[Viceroy63]

I. How old is the earth?

not more than 4.5 billions.

You can't know that.

Prove it to Jones!

Edit: I stand by my statement but probably should have wrote, "How do you know that?"

I did put the question to jones. I said, "If you would like we could explore this questions further and what facts I am mentioning here. Otherwise tomorrow I will answer another question on your list."

"If you would like..." are the operative words here. If Jones is satisfied with the answer then so be it. One down and twelve more to go.

By the way; Are you an "Anti-evolutionist?" If not, then what are you doing on this thread? Jones, I can't work like this, I'll have to call my agent and renegotiate this gig. LOL. =)

Kentington; You see where this is going right? Another beat up on the Creationist thread. =)

The things one suffers to bring wisdom and enlightenment to others. LOL

[kentington]

I. How old is the earth?

not more than 4.5 billions.

You can't know that.

Prove it to Jones!

Edit: I stand by my statement but probably should have wrote, "How do you know that?"

I did put the question to jones. I said, "If you would like we could explore this questions further and what facts I am mentioning here. Otherwise tomorrow I will answer another question on your list."

"If you would like..." are the operative words here. If Jones is satisfied with the answer then so be it. One down and twelve more to go.

By the way; Are you an "Anti-evolutionist?" If not, then what are you doing on this thread? Jones, I can't work like this, I'll have to call my agent and renegotiate this gig. LOL. =)

Kentington; You see where this is going right? Another beat up on the Creationist thread. =)

The things one suffers to bring wisdom and enlightenment to others. LOL

I don't believe that was Jones' intent. I think 2dimes was one of the uninvited ones. Please feel free to ignore him. Jones' wants to see how close Anti-Evolutionists beliefs are.

[Viceroy63]

I. How old is the earth? I am not sure. The wording in the Bible suggest that the Earth was created before the first days.

I am only focusing on one question at a time in hopes of fully resolving one issue at a time.

I agree with you here in that the earth had already been existing before the creation week of Genesis 1:2 and onward, and here is why.

There are several verses that I can and probably will use but right there in the 2nd verse is the key to understanding the translation. I have alluded to it before and I will now do so again. The word, "Was."

Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 can not and should not be placed in the same chapter together. The very first verse is a statement of the facts and it gets more complicated when you consider that the word heaven, mentioned here in the singular, can also be used in the plural. So that it should read, In The Beginning, God created the Heaven(s) and the earth. Not the heaven and the earth. So that this is just a statement and not an indication of when the earth was created. I can even provide more verses on this later on.

Some may allude to the words of Jesus when He makes references to "The Beginning" (Matthew 19:8) and fail to take into context that Jesus was not or may not necessarily have been referring to the creation week beginning but simply the beginning of Man in the shape and image of God. Just like the word World does not necessarily mean our world or all the world (Matthew 24:3). Our world began 6,000 years ago but before then there was another world. And After the return of the Lord this world will end and a new world will begin. It's just that simple.

So rightly interpreting the words is important. God did not create just one heaven but all the heavens. This means that the proper translation of "In The Beginning" makes it a separate Statement of the Facts and not a part of Genesis 1:2. And in Genesis 1:2 the word "Was" is the word that really drives this home.

The word "Was" is the Hebrew word, "Hayah." It is word H1961 in Strong's Bible Concordance and it can be interpreted in several ways least of which is "was." More to the point it can and is most likely translated or best translated as "Became." So that Genesis 1:2 should read...

"And the earth [BECAME] formless and void..."

Surely anyone can see that if the earth 'Became' formless and void then it must have existed in a previous state when it was not formless and void. The earth was not created in desolation but teaming with life and beautiful (Isaiah 45:18). It must surely have been a glorious creation for all the angels to shout out praises (Job 38:4-7). For why would a great God and creator of life, create a dead world?

So what had happened there? An enormous gap of time between the creation of the heavens and the earth and the earth becoming formless and void is what happened. A time of war in heaven (Revelation 12:7) or the heavens when worlds were destroyed and knocked on their sides. When planets were thrown of their courses and caused to collide with other celestial bodies. What had happened in that great gap of time? is a question for another thread. But we are witnesses to the results of that war.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[2dimes]

By the way; Are you an "Anti-evolutionist?" If not, then what are you doing on this thread? Jones, I can't work like this, I'll have to call my agent and renegotiate this gig. LOL. =)

I'm not really anti much.

I made a thread for regular folks to hang out in but I didn't like it so now I'm loitering here. Plus I don't believe you can know the age of the earth.

[GoranZ]

I. How old is the earth?

not more than 4.5 billions.

You can't know that.

Prove it to Jones!

Yes he can... The Sun formed about 4.6 billion years ago, value received by spectral analysis of the sun... Read it all on Wikipedia, its common knowledge

By the way; Are you an "Anti-evolutionist?" If not, then what are you doing on this thread?

Someone needs to defend common knowledge.

Answers are common knowledge, free for all, even for Anti evolutionists

I. How old is the earth? Earth formed ~4.5 billion of years but changed a lot over time
2. How old is the universe? Almost 14 billions
3. How old is humanity? ~200 000 years
4. Were there ever dinosaurs? Yes
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when? They are "gone" ~65 million years ago, but we might be able to clone some of them in the future
6. Who built the pyramids? Egyptians
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information? I have never heard of this before
8. Will there be a rapture? No
9. Are these the last days? Not for now
10. Are there really angels? No
11. Are there really aliens? Statistically there should be, it will be sad if there are none and we are alone in the universe.
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens? Other that they both start with A, there is nothing else in common.
13. Is Satan real? Nope its imaginary for some people, and non existing for the rest

[jonesthecurl]

I. How old is the earth?

not more than 4.5 billions.

You can't know that.

Prove it to Jones!

Yes he can... The Sun formed about 4.6 billion years ago, value received by spectral analysis of the sun... Read it all on Wikipedia, its common knowledge

By the way; Are you an "Anti-evolutionist?" If not, then what are you doing on this thread?

Someone needs to defend common knowledge.

Answers are common knowledge, free for all, even for Anti evolutionists

I. How old is the earth? Earth formed ~4.5 billion of years but changed a lot over time
2. How old is the universe? Almost 14 billions
3. How old is humanity? ~200 000 years
4. Were there ever dinosaurs? Yes
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when? They are "gone" ~65 million years ago, but we might be able to clone some of them in the future
6. Who built the pyramids? Egyptians
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information? I have never heard of this before
8. Will there be a rapture? No
9. Are these the last days? Not for now
10. Are there really angels? No
11. Are there really aliens? Statistically there should be, it will be sad if there are none and we are alone in the universe.
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens? Other that they both start with A, there is nothing else in common.
13. Is Satan real? Nope its imaginary for some people, and non existing for the rest

Not appropriate in this thread, thank you.

[thegreekdog]

Jones - I know you would violate your own thread rules if you answered your own questions, but just for the sake of completeness, how would you answer questions # 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 11?

[Funkyterrance]

I think a strong point that needs to be made here is that most people believe evolution is fact because they heard it from a textbook, from a teacher, on the internet, etc.. All of the information regarding evolution is gathered from a handful of scientists yet it's considered so concrete by so many. Gravity, thermodynamics and such can be proven through experiments in any ordinary lab yet evolution requires great leaps of faith in the certainty of a relatively small scientific community. Why then is evolution accepted by so many so readily?

Jones - I know you would violate your own thread rules if you answered your own questions, but just for the sake of completeness, how would you answer questions # 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 11?

The question is, tgd, are you going to fill in the list? Seriously though, I think that number 11 is one of the most interesting since a great deal of people believe there are aliens despite the complete and total lack of evidence of such a thing. I'm imagining it was included in the list because creationists aren't supposed to believe in aliens but I'm not really sure why anyone would.

[chang50]

[quote="Funkyterrance"]I think a strong point that needs to be made here is that most people believe evolution is fact because they heard it from a textbook, from a teacher, on the internet, etc.. All of the information regarding evolution is gathered from a handful of scientists yet it's considered so concrete by so many. Gravity, thermodynamics and such can be proven through experiments in any ordinary lab yet evolution requires great leaps of faith in the certainty of a relatively small scientific community. Why then is evolution accepted by so many so readily?

Not sure I agree that I would understand experiments to illustrate,prove is the wrong word,gravity or thermodynamics any more than evolution.Science in general is hard for me to get my head around.A major reason evolution is accepted is the sheer scale of the conspiracy that would be involved in fabricating the evidence.

[Haggis_McMutton]

I think a strong point that needs to be made here is that most people believe evolution is fact because they heard it from a textbook, from a teacher, on the internet, etc.. All of the information regarding evolution is gathered from a handful of scientists yet it's considered so concrete by so many. Gravity, thermodynamics and such can be proven through experiments in any ordinary lab yet evolution requires great leaps of faith in the certainty of a relatively small scientific community. Why then is evolution accepted by so many so readily?

So you're saying that that there are far fewer biologists than physicists or geologists ?

Also, I've posted this 10 times and I'm gonna post it 100 times more. Evolution has been shown in the lab: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

The question is, tgd, are you going to fill in the list? Seriously though, I think that number 11 is one of the most interesting since a great deal of people believe there are aliens despite the complete and total lack of evidence of such a thing. I'm imagining it was included in the list because creationists aren't supposed to believe in aliens but I'm not really sure why anyone would.

If you believe life can be created naturally and you see how mind boggling huge the universe is then it is not unreasonable to conclude that life might have also formed on some other planet.

[PLAYER57832]

. Gravity, thermodynamics and such can be proven through experiments in any ordinary lab

Sorry for breaking your rule, Jones, but I have moved a question about the above quote to another thread, here:

posting.php?mode=edit&f=8&p=4030519

I really would like an answer Funkyterrance

[Balsiefen]

I. How old is the earth? 512 years.
2. How old is the universe? 512 years minus 4 days.
3. How old is humanity? 4.5 billion years.
4. Were there ever dinosaurs? Yes, oh God yes.
5. If "yes" to 4, have they all gone and when? I don't know. I lost track with all the running and screaming. They could be anywhere right now so keep your guard up.
6. Who built the pyramids? Phoenicians who snuck over the border at night and put them up on the quiet.
7. Is or was the Radio Church of God a reliable source of information? Yes but only the commercial breaks.
8. Will there be a rapture? Actually they hunt in packs so there will probably be several of them at once. We should be okay though as long as they don't work out how to open doors.
9. Are these the last days? Only if they get in.
10. Are there really angels? Yes.
11. Are there really aliens? Yes.
12. What is the relationship between angels and aliens? Friends with benefits.
13. Is Satan real? Yes, he is Viktor Yanukovych, president of the Ukraine.

[Viceroy63]

I think a strong point that needs to be made here is that most people believe evolution is fact because they heard it from a textbook, from a teacher, on the internet, etc.. All of the information regarding evolution is gathered from a handful of scientists yet it's considered so concrete by so many. Gravity, thermodynamics and such can be proven through experiments in any ordinary lab yet evolution requires great leaps of faith in the certainty of a relatively small scientific community. Why then is evolution accepted by so many so readily?

So you're saying that that there are far fewer biologists than physicists or geologists ?

Also, I've posted this 10 times and I'm gonna post it 100 times more. Evolution has been shown in the lab: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

The question is, tgd, are you going to fill in the list? Seriously though, I think that number 11 is one of the most interesting since a great deal of people believe there are aliens despite the complete and total lack of evidence of such a thing. I'm imagining it was included in the list because creationists aren't supposed to believe in aliens but I'm not really sure why anyone would.

If you believe life can be created naturally and you see how mind boggling huge the universe is then it is not unreasonable to conclude that life might have also formed on some other planet.

That germs can mutate into other types of germs is not Darwinian evolution but mutations pure and simple. I think that a large part of the problem is defining the words. Evolution, as in the Theory of Evolution, is one species of animal rising out of another such as a dinosaur turning into a bird over time; And not simply breeding a Bull-dog with a shiatsu to come up with "Bull-shiat."

If you believe that life can be created naturally then you agree that life can arise out of mud??? Very scientific?

This is what confuses people. And this is what in fact has been proven by science. That life can only beget life and that no evolutionary phase of the Darwinian order has ever been observed either in nature or in a lab. I once saw Bread turn into mold. Now to you that may be evolution but to me it is simply garbage. It all has to do with how we define our words.

[Haggis_McMutton]

That germs can mutate into other types of germs is not Darwinian evolution but mutations pure and simple. I think that a large part of the problem is defining the words. Evolution, as in the Theory of Evolution, is one species of animal rising out of another such as a dinosaur turning into a bird over time; And not simply breeding a Bull-dog with a shiatsu to come up with "Bull-shiat."

So what you're saying is: "Sure: you can add 1 to 1 and get 2. You might even be able to add another 1 to 2 and go from 1 to 3. But going from 1 to 1000 ??? That's just impossible."

The entire metabolism of e-coli has changed. That is not "micro".

If you believe that life can be created naturally then you agree that life can arise out of mud??? Very scientific?

So you believe the invisible sky daddy made us out of mud? That's even more scientific.

This is what confuses people. And this is what in fact has been proven by science.[citation needed] That life can only beget life and that no evolutionary phase of the Darwinian order has ever been observed either in nature or in a lab. I once saw Bread turn into mold. Now to you that may be evolution but to me it is simply garbage. It all has to do with how we define our words.

If after 30 pages of people explaining what evolution is to you you can still say stuff like this then you are completely hopeless.
You are unable and unwilling to even attempt to comprehend something outside of what your intuition tells you is true. You cannot grow, you cannot learn.
I'm not gonna further derail this thread, quote me in your own thread if you want to.

[jonesthecurl]

Oh dear. The thread has evolved into ANOTHER ARGUMENT WITH THE ANTI-EVOLUTIONISTS. That's not what it was for. Time to abandon ship.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Oh dear. The thread has evolved into ANOTHER ARGUMENT WITH THE ANTI-EVOLUTIONISTS. That's not what it was for. Time to abandon ship.

yeah sorry, know I shouldn't have answered. won't post anymore of that shit here.