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Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.
saxitoxin wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.
What if, in cases 3, 4, 5, you were not free to move elsewhere? There aren't many countries in the world that will just let someone move in, no questions asked. For instance, nietzsche couldn't just move to the U.S. without proving he knew how to harvest the fall cabbage crop or play eclectic, psychedelic guitar.
Also, the mere act of moving usually entails some significant expense. If your freedom to engage in an exchange is contingent on your ability to pay a direct - or, in this case, indirect - financial penalty then wouldn't it be involuntary?
Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.
Haggis_McMutton wrote:I call false dichotomy.
There seem to be various degrees of voluntariness based on the existence of alternate choices and the cost incurred in taking those choices.
It's, of course, very hard to come up with exact percentages, but here's how I'd rank these from most voluntary to least:
1, 3, 4, 5, 2
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.
You're assuming a framework where the king or liberal democracy have unquestioned rights to your land or personhood, which is therefore not voluntary by definition. If, in cases of 4 and 5, they are truly democratic gov'ts, imposing taxes or conscription upon you is counter to a gov't of free individuals, i.e. their threat of force (which I assume is there should one not yield) makes the situation not voluntary and is, in fact, authoritarian.
-TG
Funkyterrance wrote:TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.
You're assuming a framework where the king or liberal democracy have unquestioned rights to your land or personhood, which is therefore not voluntary by definition. If, in cases of 4 and 5, they are truly democratic gov'ts, imposing taxes or conscription upon you is counter to a gov't of free individuals, i.e. their threat of force (which I assume is there should one not yield) makes the situation not voluntary and is, in fact, authoritarian.
-TG
Since the questions were not very explicit in the first place I did the best with the information I had. If the questions become more specific I may change my answers. How can you answer those questions as they are without assuming one thing or another? Besides, I consider a condition in which you are free to leave yet decide to remain as inherently voluntary.
_sabotage_ wrote:You have shed yourself of responsibility Funky. Each act is a choice, but you saying that you have no choice in your acts. If there is no choice, such as a tree falls on your head, it by definition wasn't voluntary.
DoomYoshi wrote:So, I will drop the bomb. Note: I don't actually care about the answer.
Question: How can any individual who lives in a physical world, and therefore subject to physical laws, be said to have a choice in anything? I mean this in two senses: the deterministic one and the fatalistic one. Being in a situation to make a choice is itself an involuntary exchange.
Or: if God knows everything that will happen, how can humans be said to have free choice?
BigBallinStalin wrote:DoomYoshi wrote:So, I will drop the bomb. Note: I don't actually care about the answer.
Question: How can any individual who lives in a physical world, and therefore subject to physical laws, be said to have a choice in anything? I mean this in two senses: the deterministic one and the fatalistic one. Being in a situation to make a choice is itself an involuntary exchange.
Or: if God knows everything that will happen, how can humans be said to have free choice?
Whoa, dude. This isn't a debate on Free Will v. Determinism. We examine the exchange, and deem if the exchange is voluntary or involuntary.
(@ DY and others--Haggis, TG).
Answer: You're thinking that "physical laws" are the only laws which involve human interaction, but this isn't the case for the social sciences. We're examining several examples of exchanges, and each exchange involves concepts such as property rights, contract law, and in some cases explicit v. implicit consent--which can differ in each example.
Haggis_McMutton wrote:I call false dichotomy.
There seem to be various degrees of voluntariness based on the existence of alternate choices and the cost incurred in taking those choices.
It's, of course, very hard to come up with exact percentages, but here's how I'd rank these from most voluntary to least:
1, 3, 4, 5, 2
BigBallinStalin wrote:1. A Story of Two Gentlemen
Bubba and Hotep wish to exchange goods with each other. Bubba brings some beer, and Hotep brings a book titled “Social Commentaries of the Unhelpful Kind.” Bubba offers a price of 10 beers, and since Hotep values the 10 beers more than his perceived benefits of the book, he agrees to the exchange.
This is an example of voluntary exchange—on the individual basis. However, some of us implicitly think that the word “voluntary” acquires the same meaning when mixed in the company of words like “government,” “common good,” and “national interest.”
2. Bandits
Suppose a group of bandits—like the Mafia—come into your town, wave their guns around, and offer their security services in exchange for $100 per month. Since it is ‘an offer you can’t refuse’, you accept the exchange. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?
3. The King
Suppose you reside in a highly esteemed city of King Shekel’s humble empire. The municipal government provides and/or funds basic services like justice, policing, ‘national’ defense, etc. Regardless of how much of these services you use--if at all, you are levied $100 per month. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?
4. The Liberal Democracy
Suppose you live in a particular boundary over which a democratic government was formed some time before you were born (e.g. the US, GER, JPN, S Korea, France, etc.). Regardless of your voting habits and your proportional use of government-provided goods and services, you are taxed at a $100 per month. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?
5. The Liberal Democracy
You live in a liberal democracy, but you are unwillingly drafted into the armed services. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?
Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?
1. Voluntary
2. Involuntary, unless free to leave
3. Involuntary, unless free to leave
4. Involuntary, unless free to leave
5. Involuntary, unless free to leave
DoomYoshi wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:DoomYoshi wrote:So, I will drop the bomb. Note: I don't actually care about the answer.
Question: How can any individual who lives in a physical world, and therefore subject to physical laws, be said to have a choice in anything? I mean this in two senses: the deterministic one and the fatalistic one. Being in a situation to make a choice is itself an involuntary exchange.
Or: if God knows everything that will happen, how can humans be said to have free choice?
Whoa, dude. This isn't a debate on Free Will v. Determinism. We examine the exchange, and deem if the exchange is voluntary or involuntary.
(@ DY and others--Haggis, TG).
Answer: You're thinking that "physical laws" are the only laws which involve human interaction, but this isn't the case for the social sciences. We're examining several examples of exchanges, and each exchange involves concepts such as property rights, contract law, and in some cases explicit v. implicit consent--which can differ in each example.
For an exchange to be voluntary, does that not demand that the participants both have free will?
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:_sabotage_ wrote:You have shed yourself of responsibility Funky. Each act is a choice, but you saying that you have no choice in your acts. If there is no choice, such as a tree falls on your head, it by definition wasn't voluntary.
The tree falling on your head doesn't comply with the scenarios presented; one is a happenstance occurrence between a person and non-sentient organism. I think BBS was interested in events between people and the results therefrom.
-TG
saxitoxin wrote:"Voluntary" is an absolutism. Either something is a voluntary act or it is an involuntary act. If it's an involuntary act, it can have varying degrees of involuntariness (i.e. slavery, servitude, compromise, contract commitment, etc.). There cannot be varying degrees of volunteerism.
"Death" is an absolutism. Either something is dead or it is alive. If it's alive, it can have varying degrees of life (i.e. vitality, coma, etc.). There cannot be varying degrees of death.
BigBallinStalin wrote:voluntary exchange
Let's say I want to join a gym. They offer access to their facilities in exchange for $30 per month. The formal laws (codified) are written on some billboard (e.g. don't run around the pool; wear protective footwear whilst in the weight room; etc.). The informal laws are implicitly understood and usually don't need to be written (e.g. don't enter the building while screaming ferociously, and other variously understood laws within the Golden "Don't Be a Dick" Rule).
I'm generally aware of what kind of behavior they expect in a gym, and since I value the gym membership more than $30 per month, then I voluntarily agree to the exchange.
involuntary exchange
If an exchange involves coercion, i.e. made under duress by threat of physical violence, if one other party has not previously agreed upon the exchange, thus not upon the previous rules, then this is an involuntary exchange.
So, with this in mind, what contract did you sign when you were born into a liberal democracy?
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Buying your kid a McDonalds - voluntary?
Well if you factor in the cost you would incur if you didn't buy it i.e. your kid having a tantrum in the middle of the store, then there is some element of coercion - involuntary
Going on holiday to Paris - voluntary?
Maybe you really wanna just stay home and engage into a sleep/eat/watch TV marathon, but what about the fact that the neighbors went to Vienna last summer? Will staying home be interpreted by all your friends as financial troubles ? Not to mention what the wife is going to say when you mention your vacation plans to her. - again some elements of coercion are present
Haggis_McMutton wrote:What if your girlfriend says to get your fat ass in the gym or she's dumping you. is that not a form of coercion ?
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