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Lootifer wrote:Likely nothing more than similar articles to what he's submitted previously, as far as I am concerned the end result of my investigation is:
- There is a minor amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system, mostly at the tertiary level
- There is a surprisingly (?) high proportion of liberal instructors at the tertiary level, the impact of this is, as yet, seemingly unquantified
- There is a vocal minority that appear to be sensationalising data in order to progress a political agenda
- Without further evidence the counterfactual conclusion (that education is primarily about education) still seems perfectly valid
Agree?

Not dodging - didn't notice. Was that in this thread someplace? Sorry.Woodruff wrote:Well, that's an interesting dodge, but were you going to entirely avoid the point then? Or did you just want to pretend that I'm speaking of some historical-but-long-dead-animal when I speak of a "classic liberal"?Nobunaga wrote:Classic: (from Merriams) : typical <a classic example of chicanery> <a classic error>Woodruff wrote:What about my point regarding "classic liberalism"? Nothing?Nobunaga wrote:Typical, personal attack in lieu of argument. The classic liberal deflection.PLAYER57832 wrote:... Too bad, you have not been educated enough to really understand that hatred of disputing ideas is not a substitute for thought.
Indeed. That's why I've seen you so often disagree strongly with Phatscotty methodologies in these fora. Oh, wait...Nobunaga wrote:I have no hatred for disputing ideas, only for the blind faith put in those ideas by people with very selective awareness.
I did not intend the use of the word as it would have been used with say, classical Greece. Why do I have to explain this? This thread is about education... maybe this misunderstanding reveals to us problems with our system of education in the US.
Hell no!! LOLLootifer wrote:Likely nothing more than similar articles to what he's submitted previously, as far as I am concerned the end result of my investigation is:
- There is a minor amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system, mostly at the tertiary level
- There is a surprisingly (?) high proportion of liberal instructors at the tertiary level, the impact of this is, as yet, seemingly unquantified
- There is a vocal minority that appear to be sensationalising data in order to progress a political agenda
- Without further evidence the counterfactual conclusion (that education is primarily about education) still seems perfectly valid
Agree?
Think harder.Phatscotty wrote:Hell no!! LOLLootifer wrote:Likely nothing more than similar articles to what he's submitted previously, as far as I am concerned the end result of my investigation is:
- There is a minor amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system, mostly at the tertiary level
- There is a surprisingly (?) high proportion of liberal instructors at the tertiary level, the impact of this is, as yet, seemingly unquantified
- There is a vocal minority that appear to be sensationalising data in order to progress a political agenda
- Without further evidence the counterfactual conclusion (that education is primarily about education) still seems perfectly valid
Agree?
There is a major amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system. I have seen it myself, and not just one time or in one school, but many times in every school I've been in.
There is a high proportion of liberal instructors. We haven't got into teachers unions yet, but that is one of the sources. My best friends wife is a teacher, and she gets the union mail out every month, and inside there are specific instructions on how to teach children about the wonders of Leftism, and how to deal with and oppress Conservative ideas. There are also specific instructions to "teach" children how to vote the "right" way.
There is a growing number of people who are not indoctrinated that are pointing out data in order to recognize a political agenda of Leftism that is and has been shoved down the throat of millions of students.
also, there is a minority of people who have not went through the US education system, have no first hand evidence or examples or experience, are not surrounded by people who can confirm this based on their own first hand experiences, and willingly dismiss all evidence contrary to what they want to believe. They are also usually people who do not live in America
Phatscotty wrote:Really BBS? Why respond to a post where you didn't even watch the video or get the example I showed? My posts are filled with example after example after example. All you and your ilk are doing is "nu-uh, nu-uh". Any dolt can do that.
Think of ways you can participate in the subject matter. For example, you could show us how Universities are dominated by Conservatives....
Give us something worth reading/viewing, and it will be read or viewed. We already have enough Woodruff's and Andy's. There is no demand for more.
How about an opinion from you BBS. You have shown you are highly interested in this subject, so you probably have an opinion. Are our universities dominated by Conservatives? Or Liberals? Are you able to make a statement one way or the other? What do you think the ratio is?
There really isn't, no. I can't speak for what you've seen, but without declaring it as "cognitive bias", I can only say that it's probably marginal instances rather than a consistent theme. Particularly given how you view...well...pretty much every other issue, it really is difficult not to think that you may be seeing this in a similar way.Phatscotty wrote: There is a major amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system. I have seen it myself, and not just one time or in one school, but many times in every school I've been in.
Teachers unions? Do teachers unions do the hiring, Phatscotty? Do teachers unions tell their members how to vote, Phatscotty?Phatscotty wrote:There is a high proportion of liberal instructors. We haven't got into teachers unions yet, but that is one of the sources.
I'm just going to go ahead and call you a liar here.Phatscotty wrote:My best friends wife is a teacher, and she gets the union mail out every month, and inside there are specific instructions on how to teach children about the wonders of Leftism, and how to deal with and oppress Conservative ideas. There are also specific instructions to "teach" children how to vote the "right" way.
There is a growing level of batshit crazy? And all this time, I just thought it was you.Phatscotty wrote:There is a growing number of people who are not indoctrinated that are pointing out data in order to recognize a political agenda of Leftism that is and has been shoved down the throat of millions of students.
Your paranoia is painful.Phatscotty wrote:also, there is a minority of people who have not went through the US education system, have no first hand evidence or examples or experience, are not surrounded by people who can confirm this based on their own first hand experiences, and willingly dismiss all evidence contrary to what they want to believe. They are also usually people who do not live in America.
Given that your original premise is highly irrational plus the method for which you typically respond to valid criticism, that may be the only valuable response.Phatscotty wrote:Really BBS? Why respond to a post where you didn't even watch the video or get the example I showed? My posts are filled with example after example after example. All you and your ilk are doing is "nu-uh, nu-uh". Any dolt can do that.
Yes, you should definitely continue to hide from my points. It's really all you've got at this point.Phatscotty wrote:Give us something worth reading/viewing, and it will be read or viewed. We already have enough Woodruff's and Andy's. There is no demand for more.
Well that's just patently dishonest.Phatscotty wrote: None of this is based on my ideology or my bias.
What is it that you believe teachers unions are doing to further this oppression of conservatism in education, Phatscotty?Phatscotty wrote: Teachers unions are dominated by the left. That's just a fact, and I don't have to spend hours an billions of dollars proving it time and again.
I don't think you even understand most of your posts.Phatscotty wrote:I try to make my posts comprehensible to the average person.
What about when a post is 0% correct?Phatscotty wrote:Your posts may be intelligent from time to time, but that doesn't mean many people understand them, or don't just ignore them. Even if your post is 100% correct, if few people can understand it, then it's not going to make an impact.
I don't think the term you're looking for is "dominated", because it's really not applicable.Phatscotty wrote:Our education system is as dominated by the Left as the sky is blue.
It is in the education systems best interest to elect and promote individuals who are actually seriously concerned about education. In the past, that wasn't necessarily Democrats or Republicans. However, when VIEWED AS A GROUP (rather than individuals), these days that does seem to be more of a Democrat thing than a Republican thing. That has nothing at all to do with trying to "dominate the system with liberals", but rather to do with "trying to make the educational process a good one".Phatscotty wrote: Would you like to offer your opinion if our education system leans left or right?
Is it in an educations system's best interest to elect and promote electing Democrats, or Republicans?
nice red shirts!A new book by Kyle Olson of Education Action Group exposes the progressive agenda in many of America's government schools. It reveals the curriculum, who the activists are and how to fight back.
I pledge allegiance to the earth
Yeah, funny thing about him and his group (if you're interested in the truth): http://eagtruth.wordpress.com/Phatscotty wrote:A new book by Kyle Olson of Education Action Group exposes the progressive agenda in many of America's government schools. It reveals the curriculum, who the activists are and how to fight back.
It kind of clashes with your brown one, does it?Phatscotty wrote:nice red shirts!
So you don't believe we should take care of the planet or treat all men as equals either?Phatscotty wrote:I pledge allegiance to the earth
Phatscotty wrote:I am showing plenty of examples and reports and studies, and will continue for months. You can say they don't matter, or don't show anything one way or the other, or whatever you want to say. They are examples that support my premise. There are tons more examples too, while not so many that oppose my premise. Why is that, if you had to take a guess?
Firstly we need to see evidence of the underlined.Phatscotty wrote: Hell no!! LOL
There is a major amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system. I have seen it myself, and not just one time or in one school, but many times in every school I've been in.
There is a high proportion of liberal instructors. We haven't got into teachers unions yet, but that is one of the sources. My best friends wife is a teacher, and she gets the union mail out every month, and inside there are specific instructions on how to teach children about the wonders of Leftism, and how to deal with and oppress Conservative ideas. There are also specific instructions to "teach" children how to vote the "right" way.
There is a growing number of people who are not indoctrinated that are pointing out data in order to recognize a political agenda of Leftism that is and has been shoved down the throat of millions of students.
also, there is a minority of people who have not went through the US education system, have no first hand evidence or examples or experience, are not surrounded by people who can confirm this based on their own first hand experiences, and willingly dismiss all evidence contrary to what they want to believe. They are also usually people who do not live in America
20-100? Egad, don't give them any ideas. <grin>Lootifer wrote:lets assume that the class size ranges from what? 20-100?
I respect your willingness to have an honest conversation with honor.Lootifer wrote:Firstly we need to see evidence of the underlined.Phatscotty wrote: Hell no!! LOL
There is a major amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system. I have seen it myself, and not just one time or in one school, but many times in every school I've been in.
There is a high proportion of liberal instructors. We haven't got into teachers unions yet, but that is one of the sources. My best friends wife is a teacher, and she gets the union mail out every month, and inside there are specific instructions on how to teach children about the wonders of Leftism, and how to deal with and oppress Conservative ideas. There are also specific instructions to "teach" children how to vote the "right" way.
There is a growing number of people who are not indoctrinated that are pointing out data in order to recognize a political agenda of Leftism that is and has been shoved down the throat of millions of students.
also, there is a minority of people who have not went through the US education system, have no first hand evidence or examples or experience, are not surrounded by people who can confirm this based on their own first hand experiences, and willingly dismiss all evidence contrary to what they want to believe. They are also usually people who do not live in America
Secondly lets run through your evidence to get a feel for how representative it is of the overall education system. We'll have to use high level assumptions but that should be fine to get a feel for how representative your sample is (i.e. how big the sample size is).
There are roughly 14.6 million full time students. Lets say that they take what 5-10 papers/classes per year? With 2-5 classes per week? Thats between 300-1500 classes per year per student; lets assume that the class size ranges from what? 20-100?
All works out to roughly 44-1095 million classes (nice range due to hugely variable assumptions, but thats fine). Lets be pessimestic and take the lower end of the assumptions. 44 million classes per year.
Say you have ample evidence that you can keep turning out. Say its 50-100 professors indoctrinating in 50-100 classes (lets say you only video tape the worst 10% or something). Thats 2500-10000 indoctrinating classes (lets say you only video tape the worst 1% or something meaning you should be able to find 25 clips of lessons quite easily). Thats 0.006-0.023% of all classes are indoctrinating with some very indoctrination favourable assumptions
For reference: To be convinved of a serious issue I would want to see at least 1% of classes showing serious forms of indoctrination. That would mean each year there should be 438000 classes where serious indoctrination is occuring. If this was the case I think you would have slightly more focus on the topic (rather than one bias research book, and a handful of activist websites).


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Sorry, I was thinking more in terms of high school. My bad.Lootifer wrote:You never attended like Econ101 or Math101 or some other popular class where you sat in a lecture theater of 100+ students?
You want know what we talk about in the teachers' lounge? We talk about how Dylan isn't particularly smart, but he sure works hard. We talk about how Jeff is lazy and how can we possibly get him to complete and turn in his homework. We wonder why Jane has missed the last week and a half of school and we hope she's ok. We talk about "what do you do in class to make historical segments of your material less boring?". It sure as hell isn't about politics or how we can indoctrinate kids. It's laughable that you think we even might EVER have either of those conversations you're implying.Phatscotty wrote:So let's explore that environment, in the teachers lounge, at the union meetings, preparing for PTA meetings, school councils.
No. Not right. At all.Phatscotty wrote:We still know it's true there are hardly any Conservatives involved with any of that,the thinking, the perspectives, the jargon, the direction they collectively try to move a student or parents or an education board, is about as linear as it can get. Right?
That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The civics teacher, whether you want to believe it or not, isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. Everyone is teaching their curriculum as it is described in an effort to get the students ready for their mandated testing, as testing is what the teaching world sadly revolves around now. Hell, I probably have more affect on the students as far as "values" go than most teachers in the school, because I have the ability to be flexible in my curriculum (no federal or state standards, only USAF standards, yay!), and the extent of my "teaching values" are self-discipline, respect for yourself and others, and community service is a good thing. That's pretty much it. There is no time for teaching any conservative or liberal bias, there is no time for trying to convince kids to ignore what their parents say, there is no time for trying to steal the kids soul and sell it to Satan. There's no time for all of this bullshit that you want to pretend is happening in our schools.Phatscotty wrote:Do you at least concede, concerning the number of Liberal teachers, they are most likely not teaching Conservative values, and probably not accurately describing Conservative values, and as I have shown, many times, actively mock and attack Conservatives and Conservative values in the classroom.
Your "groundwork" is all sand. Why don't you try to pour a little concrete instead?Phatscotty wrote:Just take it one thing at a time, pleas don't jump to conclusions. Just laying the groundwork.