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Education in the USA

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Tue May 14, 2013 8:51 pm

Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. Their aim is to teach students what to think, and not how to think. So far I have showed you a lot of clips from the last couple weeks where teachers and schools are putting the entire student body through a bunch of extreme experiences concerning even the mention of the word gun, or biting a pop tart into a gun shape, or pointing a pencil at someone and saying "bang bang", or wearing a second amendment t-shirt. All of those children are learning to be scared of something that is their constitutional right. Those are all great examples of how fear is used to control.


I agree and yet I disagree at the same time.

I really agree with the first sentence. I'm not sure that the gun case is an example. I think it is more of an outward manifestation of an inward political bias. Let's back up a few years before the incident last year. I knew someone who was a teacher. There was an incident with a student and a gun. Being a Vietnam Vet he handled the situation and relieved the student of the gun without incident. The faculty was happy and curious at how well he had handled the situation. He mentioned his experience as a Vietnam Vet. From that moment on (because he didn't discuss it before) they effectively effectively blacklisted him. Why? Because they basically feared him (outward manifestation of an inward bias). It wasn't a part of some complex plot, because he was neither pushing an agenda nor resisting one, but a pure example of an irrational fear.

So it's not really a case of a deliberate attempt to isolate boys from traditional mock combat play (in this case through mock guns) but a real inward irrational fear of "gun nuts."

The second amendment t-shirt is more complex, as that is an attempt to "control" speech. But then again, I used to go to Catholic Schools with uniforms.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Tue May 14, 2013 8:56 pm

Lootifer wrote:You never attended like Econ101 or Math101 or some other popular class where you sat in a lecture theater of 100+ students?


Freshman courses (at least in R.P.I.) was divided into the lecture time and the class session time; the later would be more like the 25-30 student range. This only occurred in Freshman courses because most of the Freshman class had to take that course and having the common lecture saved on resources. While the lecturer was in charge of the teaching assistants used in the smaller classes, he wasn't responsible for all of the students in the classes.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Tue May 14, 2013 9:04 pm

Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Well you would hope not.

Woodruff wrote:The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


It's literally baked into the course. You literally can't help that. History is the best example of bias within the course. Math, for the most part is math. But what and how history is covered makes all the difference. Frankly, history was crap in my day and it has become toxic waste today. I would expect that the average college student would totally fail the simple history test given in the 19th century to 8th graders.

Woodruff wrote:Everyone is teaching their curriculum as it is described in an effort to get the students ready for their mandated testing, as testing is what the teaching world sadly revolves around now.


I think this is one area where we probably agree. We are teaching to much "to the test" and not as much "beyond the test."

So, what is your opinion on "common core?"
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:19 am

tzor wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. Their aim is to teach students what to think, and not how to think. So far I have showed you a lot of clips from the last couple weeks where teachers and schools are putting the entire student body through a bunch of extreme experiences concerning even the mention of the word gun, or biting a pop tart into a gun shape, or pointing a pencil at someone and saying "bang bang", or wearing a second amendment t-shirt. All of those children are learning to be scared of something that is their constitutional right. Those are all great examples of how fear is used to control.


I agree and yet I disagree at the same time.

I really agree with the first sentence.


If you agree that it is "the norm today" for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values, then you are quite simply ignorant. There is no other way to put it, frankly. I am stunned to even see these sorts of statements typed out they're so far from reality.

But I am curious...exactly which anti-American values are you referring to, that are being taught so plainly in our high schools? Let's get into some specifics.

tzor wrote:I'm not sure that the gun case is an example. I think it is more of an outward manifestation of an inward political bias. Let's back up a few years before the incident last year. I knew someone who was a teacher. There was an incident with a student and a gun. Being a Vietnam Vet he handled the situation and relieved the student of the gun without incident. The faculty was happy and curious at how well he had handled the situation. He mentioned his experience as a Vietnam Vet. From that moment on (because he didn't discuss it before) they effectively effectively blacklisted him. Why? Because they basically feared him (outward manifestation of an inward bias). It wasn't a part of some complex plot, because he was neither pushing an agenda nor resisting one, but a pure example of an irrational fear.


As a 23-year veteran of the military who teaches a class on Air Force Junior ROTC and has taught it in three different public high schools (so obviously it's well known that I was in the military long enough for me to have retired), I have never felt ostracized by my fellow teachers, nor have I felt feared by them. In speaking with my fellow Junior ROTC teachers, I don't believe it happens in their schools either. I can't think of a SINGLE FELLOW TEACHER who has even hinted to me that they felt uncomfortable around me.

I would suggest that how he was treated had more to do with "Vietnam vet" than his having been in the military or his being a "gun nut" or anything else, given the high incidence of PTSD and how poorly it was treated for so long that came from that era. That plus general misunderstanding and ignorance of PTSD.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:23 am

tzor wrote:So, what is your opinion on "common core?"


Unfortunately, I don't really know much about it. I've heard the term, and seen advertisements for it (teachers get ALL KINDS of spam email). I am curious about it, but since our school district hasn't really (as far as I know) been looking to move in that direction, I haven't really taken the time to explore it.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:26 am

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Well you would hope not.

Woodruff wrote:The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


It's literally baked into the course. You literally can't help that. History is the best example of bias within the course. Math, for the most part is math. But what and how history is covered makes all the difference. Frankly, history was crap in my day and it has become toxic waste today. I would expect that the average college student would totally fail the simple history test given in the 19th century to 8th graders.


There's a big difference between "teaching history with a liberal or conservative viewpoint" (which probably happens, as you say, depending on the author of the particular textbook) and "teaching history with conservative or liberal values". I don't at all believe that history is being taught with conservative or liberal values, and I certainly don't believe that history TEACHERS are (and it's ludicrous to think that teachers unions are) implementing this philosophy. Teachers what they're told to teach, and they really don't have time to put any "spin" on it.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 15, 2013 7:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. .

Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.

in other words, you missed a BIG section of your basic government studies..the parts about how it actually works and WHY.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 4:28 pm

Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.

You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 4:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. .

Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.

in other words, you missed a BIG section of your basic government studies..the parts about how it actually works and WHY.


Player, the government can be the people's enemy, or our servent, or anywhere on a scale from 1-10 on either of those things. How can you even imply that, no matter how evil a leader may be, or how anti-American a leader may be, that they are still our servants?? You imply that no matter what they do, they are our servants. That is completely thoughtless and demands zero accountability. When people think like you do, is when corrupt leaders can most easily get away with whatever they want. Their people are ignorant.

I didn't miss anything, and I think you are missing a BIG section of common sense. Only one who worships big government and holds they can do no wrong could believe what you said, which is why at least I have always found you to be honest.

"When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is Liberty" - Thomas Jefferson

You think Jefferson was anti-American too? If anything, can you at least realize that Jefferson is showing that the government can be either or, not always one or the other?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.
You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.


Given your views on...well, pretty much every subject I've seen you post on...I'm just going to go ahead and state that I firmly believe that was simply your own preconceptions being tied into what you expected them to be like and every time anything happened that could possibly support your view, you bought into it with all of the fervor you have for a Glen Beck video. The fact that so many of your teachers seemed to do so only supports that view. Your cognitive bias seems to so overwhelm you that it's ridiculous.

Oh, and...MATH is a subject that difficult it is difficult to politicize more than? Good Lord man, get help.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 10:13 pm

Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 12:52 am

Phatscotty wrote:Image


Different words, same nonsense.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby thegreekdog on Thu May 16, 2013 10:46 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.

You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.


Did they succeed in their attempts to indoctrinate you into their thinking?

I think many teachers and professors lean left (in my anecdotal experience... of which there is actually a lot).

So there are really two questions here:

- Is the federal government (or some other institution) directing the indoctrination of students into a certain viewpoint? There does not appear to be any proof of that in this thread or anywhere else, so I think we can safely answer no.

- If the answer to the first question is yes, has the indoctrination been successful or effective? I think we can also answer no to that question. You and I have both had left-leaning teachers and professors and we remain staunchly anti-left.

Moderators, since those were rhetorical questions that have effectively ended debate in this thread, this thread can now be locked. Thanks!
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 16, 2013 11:27 am

Phatscotty wrote:Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.


But you prove that I could be more wrong than I am every time you post.

Phatscotty wrote:If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.


You have a major malfunction here. Logic doesn't care about religion. Religion is irrelevant to logic.

If YOU are really serious about this topic, you would actually educate yourself.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 16, 2013 7:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.


But you prove that I could be more wrong than I am every time you post.

Phatscotty wrote:If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.


You have a major malfunction here. Logic doesn't care about religion. Religion is irrelevant to logic.

If YOU are really serious about this topic, you would actually educate yourself.


Greekdog, can I get a ruling on Woodruffs' debate style?

I want to learn
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 7:24 pm

Sorry just had a look at the last few posts and tears are rolling down my face with laughter at the "fact" that the christian right feels attacked by logic. Next thing I'll be reading is that the persecution of proud American christians is proved by the fact the government hasn't switched everyone over to speaking ancient Hebrew, the language of our Lord Jesus Christ! :lol:
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 16, 2013 7:27 pm

That's a lot of conclusion jumping based on a false premise to being with. But I know those things crack you up

more evidencez
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby thegreekdog on Fri May 17, 2013 7:02 am

Phatscotty wrote:Greekdog, can I get a ruling on Woodruffs' debate style?


No. You have questions to answer (rhetorical though they may be).

Phatscotty wrote:I want to learn


I'm not convinced that you want to learn and I certainly don't want to be accused of indoctrinating you.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby crispybits on Fri May 17, 2013 8:18 am

Phatscotty wrote:That's a lot of conclusion jumping based on a false premise to being with. But I know those things crack you up


Hey you're the one that said it. "Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked."

Them damn logicians with their supersets and subsets, their predicates and sillyjisms and apist... apostemalogical arguments, they're persecuting our true and proud christian values. We are under attack from those who have the arrogance to question our obviously totally infallibull arguments by calling the bible circular! Are they stoooopid or something, I have a bible right here and it's clearly rectangular! Them damn logicians don't believe in the power of God, they's all atheests or muslims or something, commies and enemies of 'Murica to the last man! Freedom of (christian) religion dammit!!
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 12:53 am

so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.

but, if you wanted to see how it really is, and not just listen to Woodruffs imagination talking, you would see teachers from all fields say they were required to give each class 5 minute "current events" lectures daily. Obviously, what kind of class it is has nothing at all to do with the ability for it to be an opportunity to indoctrinate. It just shows another way that Woodruff cannot even begin to see the conversation correctly.

yuh, Crispy, you got yourself a joke there, but it's out of context. I'm not really interested in it other than to say that's what happened in my logic class.

Crispy, opinion: Is religion Logical?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 12:55 am

Phatscotty wrote:That's a lot of conclusion jumping based on a false premise to being with.


You mean your premise that religion is being attacked?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 12:57 am

Get the education you missed!
FREEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 1:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.


Actually, that's really not what I said, though I can certainly see why you would want to pretend that it was. To anyone actually paying attention, it was clear that I was speaking of the idea that the math teacher (as a general occurrence) was teaching either liberal or conservative values. I stand by that statement. The math teacher simply does not have time to bother with that.

I know you like to throw your personal ancedotes around like they're facts, but honestly I don't think anyone believes what you're saying about your logic class anyway. I certainly don't.

Phatscotty wrote:but, if you wanted to see how it really is, and not just listen to Woodruffs imagination talking, you would see teachers from all fields say they were required to give each class 5 minute "current events" lectures daily.


This is your proof that liberal values are permeating our classrooms? The fact that current events are discussed?

Phatscotty wrote:Obviously, what kind of class it is has nothing at all to do with the ability for it to be an opportunity to indoctrinate. It just shows another way that Woodruff cannot even begin to see the conversation correctly.


You never did explain how my hard-core Fox-news-watching Mormon conservative co-teacher and I could possibly discuss current events in complete harmony while advancing our curriculum exactly as expected by our Principal, our Superintendent and the Air Force. How could that be possible, if what you say is true, Phatscotty? Were you going to, or is just another thing that you ignore in your desperation to score points?

By the way, aren't I foed? Wanting to hit the Baker's Dozen, are you?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 1:10 am

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.


Actually, that's really not what I said, though I can certainly see why you would want to pretend that it was. To anyone actually paying attention, it was clear that I was speaking of the idea that the math teacher (as a general occurrence) was teaching either liberal or conservative values. I stand by that statement. The math teacher simply does not have time to bother with that.


I already posted a clip of a math teacher who was instructed to make time, 5 minutes, everyday....Go ahead and stand by your statement. All you are standing by is a steaming pile of bullshit.

clearly, there is no time...... :roll: Do you ever listen to yourself???


How is it that you speak for the time of every teacher in America? Fascinating the dribble you utter, even in the face of evidence of which you clearly ignored. See why you are such a waste of time? I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I would be stupid to keep going on with a fool such as yourself.

Go back and look at the evidence, and let that math teacher smack it right in your face. Then come back and talk something else out of your ass.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 1:17 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.


Actually, that's really not what I said, though I can certainly see why you would want to pretend that it was. To anyone actually paying attention, it was clear that I was speaking of the idea that the math teacher (as a general occurrence) was teaching either liberal or conservative values. I stand by that statement. The math teacher simply does not have time to bother with that.


You are insane. I already posted a clip of a math teacher who was instructed to make time, 5 minutes, everyday....


I understand that you have difficulty following the context of a thread, but I would have thought that you'd have the ability to follow the context of a single post. It's interesting that you apparently cannot.

Phatscotty wrote:clearly, there is no time...... :roll: Do you ever listen to yourself???


You should really try to get some self-awareness.

Phatscotty wrote:How is it that you speak for the time of every teacher in America?


I didn't speak for the time of every teacher in America. This thread is not about every individual teacher in America. This thread is about teachers in general and whether there is some liberal conspiracy to subvert our children to progressive thinking, which is precisely what my postings have been in reference to. You are the only one who seems to believe that anecdotal statements about some alleged professor you had equate to this liberal conspiracy.

Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating the dribble you utter, even in the face of evidence of which you clearly ignored.


Evidence? I don't believe you actually understand what the term "evidence" entails. In fact, I'm quite certain of it.

Phatscotty wrote:See why you are such a waste of time? I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I would be stupid to keep going on with a fool such as yourself.


You really should try to find some self-awareness.

Phatscotty wrote:Go back and look at the evidence, and let that math teacher smack it right in your face. Then come back and talk something else out of your ass.


Or, alternatively, you could actually discuss the issue that's been talked about by the adults in the thread. You know you don't have to sit at the kiddie table all by yourself. You could join us from time to time.

By the way, aren't I foed? Wanting to hit the Baker's Dozen, are you?
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