Dropping Major Clan Events

[chapcrap]

This has become an issue lately and I think that something should be done to stop it from happening in the future.

If a clan signs up for an event, they should either be compelled to finish it or not be allowed to participate in future events. Clans need to know what they are getting themselves into. If they don't, then others shouldn't have to suffer a worse event and complications because of their failure. I know that if I have a player drop out of tournaments I am running, I don't freely let that person into the next tournament. Especially if the tournaments are running concurrently. Why would I screw over one of my tournaments to appease that person and let them into another tournament?


I'll be honest, I'd rather not be in the Random League right now and our contact for that league is extremely busy in real life at the moment and apparently we're behind in making games. However, I think that we should honor our commitment or be punished for dropping out. But, if we aren't going to be punishing clans for not following through with the commitments that they've signed up for, then I guess we can just drop out and not have to suffer anything.

EDIT:

Possible solutions from this thread:

1. No punishment
2. Punish on a case by case basis
3. Have a different punishment for every event
4. Have a clan wide punishment policy that includes all events

Possible Punishments from this thread:

1. Ban offending clan from the same event for next year.
2. Ban offending clan from next major event.
3. Ban until sufficient recruiting has been done.
4. Ban offending clan for a given time period. This could include major events or all wars, events, etc.
   
   1. 2 months
   2. 3 months
   3. 6 months

[comic boy]

I dont have huge problems with your proposition but there is a potential downside which you , and others , seem to have ignored. Lets use the Premier League as an example , half way through a particular clan may have had unexpected success and convincingly beaten some of the favourites in their first 6 matches.
Then suddenly , and this is a common scenario , all hell breaks loose and for a myriad of reasons 5 or 6 of the best players in the clan leave. The clan , under threat of penalty , soldiers on but forfeits some games , loses most others and fails to win another match.
Those clans fortunate enough to play these later matches have been given a huge advantage , yet nothing can be done , whereas if the clan had withdrawn halfway , an equitable and fair solution could have been found.

[chapcrap]

So, in your scenario, you have a clan with 15 players and all of a sudden the 5 or 6 best players leave? First of all, how likely is that? A clan with that low of players isn't likely. A clan losing that many players is also unlikely. Those players being the best is more unlikely.

So, if the unlikely scenario happens, then yes, they can drop and be punished for not being better equipped or they can soldier on. I don't have a problem with either scenario. If they had their stuff together, they probably wouldn't be losing the best 33% of their clan. And clan changes happen on the time. So, if you have a 4-5 month event (CL5 and RL), then obviously different clans are going to get different levels of competition anyway. New maps are released, new players come, some players leave. It happens all across the board. So, yes, even after talking through your scenario in my head, I am still in favor of some kind of punishment.

[Gunn217]

One can "what if" a scenario to death. There is a lot of time and effort put into the events and when someone drops out in the middle it sucks for everyone else. "What if" everyone that didn't make the premiere league said "f*ck it, we can't win the whole thing, let's just quit."

I'm not a stickler for the rules most of the time but Chap is right. If you drop out of an event without a great excuse you should be banned from joining that event the next time. I'll put an emphasis on without a great excuse. Things happen and exceptions can always be made for the right reasons.

[Genoke]

we've got only 13 players in our clan...14 before, but 1 left due busy RL.
If we would lose another 4 players, then we still have 9 left...may we stay in the clan event? Since 15 games max participation comes around mostly...
that's another angle/perspective. What happens then?

[benga]

we've got only 13 players in our clan...14 before, but 1 left due busy RL.
If we would lose another 4 players, then we still have 9 left...may we stay in the clan event? Since 15 games max participation comes around mostly...
that's another angle/perspective. What happens then?

Good point, seems we have to raise the bar to 20 minimum per clan and 10 active to be in war or still participate in events.

Also there is this little thing that clan leaders should do, go and be proactive in taking more members

[Dako]

You should also note that CC clans had 22 events so far (4 x CCup, 5 x CL, 3 x RL, 2 x ACC, 4 x NC, 2 x 1v1, 1 x Random, 1 x TLO) and they were composed of roughly 500+ clans in total. So far there were less than 10 issues when a clan resigned from an event.

Do you really think we need a rule for 1% case scenario? I think we should have a simple description and deal with it case by case.

[freakns]

i dont like it, but i cant prevent it. for me, biggest loser in dropping out is a clan that dropped out, so i dont see how any rule would change things. if that however become a trend, then just ban that clan.
for example, we had AOC, EMP and TOFU dropping out from CL5 this year(for different reasons, but still drop out). if they do the same thing in future events, ban them from every competition, because while once can be bad luck, twice is a trend and we cant no longer have faith in that clan.

[eddie2]

i hate to say but you are saying and this is the highlighted part.

This has become an issue lately and I think that something should be done to stop it from happening in the future.

what is the new issue that has caused this as it has never been a problem in the past ?

i am sorry but no harm meant to clan mods or other organisers by my post but we have

cl5 (this is run by qwert but clan moderators are telling him what to do.)
cl4 (run by clan mods ) and i will not go into what happened there. my thoughts are because they run it we do not have a last line of defense to protect us against bad running of tournaments(which happened in previous events so clan moderators stepped in at the request of us and went overboard not allowing public players to run these without full following of rules they set down instead of making them follow the rules they started the event on(dako running cl4 is evidence) instead of the request by us to moderate and make sure rules are being followed without one rule for one and another for more favored members. because the only people we can report it to is the people running it, and we cannot really go to admin because they will usually back up clan moderation with there rulings. so what this has lead to is that if a clan does not like something that they do not like they will just withdraw from the event instead of fighting a pointless issue that will not be resolved by the rules of the event but by favoritism of members it is not going to work. i proberly could word this differently but i have had a couple of drinks and am just voicing my opinion on what has happened to clan events and how rules get bent for different clans and not others.

[L M S]

When did CC become obligatory rather than voluntary?
If I enter into a game that isn't full, then decide later I don't want to play for whatever reason and drop...am I to be punished?

[danryan]

When did CC become obligatory rather than voluntary?
If I enter into a game that isn't full, then decide later I don't want to play for whatever reason and drop...am I to be punished?

Yes, because you're a bad boy.

[L M S]

When did CC become obligatory rather than voluntary?
If I enter into a game that isn't full, then decide later I don't want to play for whatever reason and drop...am I to be punished?

Yes, because you're a bad boy.

I'm dirty too.
Dan, are you naked?
Do you like gladiator movies?

[danryan]

When did CC become obligatory rather than voluntary?
If I enter into a game that isn't full, then decide later I don't want to play for whatever reason and drop...am I to be punished?

Yes, because you're a bad boy.

I'm dirty too.
Dan, are you naked?
Do you like gladiator movies?

Do you have a camera in my office?

[L M S]

When did CC become obligatory rather than voluntary?
If I enter into a game that isn't full, then decide later I don't want to play for whatever reason and drop...am I to be punished?

Yes, because you're a bad boy.

I'm dirty too.
Dan, are you naked?
Do you like gladiator movies?

Do you have a camera in my office?

Yes but, it's the feed I get from the one in your shed that is most disturbing.

[Qwert]

eddie
cl5 (this is run by qwert but clan moderators are telling him what to do.)

Well this its not true.

[eddie2]

eddie
cl5 (this is run by qwert but clan moderators are telling him what to do.)

Well this its not true.

qwert the format was yours but the rules you had to follow what cd/s told you to do.. this can be proven by the fact dako would not follow the demands of the clan moderation to follow there rules they wanted and got removed from running the event.... so even though you think you are in charge you are not because if you ever go against something that you are told to do you face being removed from organization,, how does it feel to be a puppet.

[Doc_Brown]

I was thinking about this some last night, and I'm not sure that the proposed punishment concepts will produce the desired results. Follow me on this: If a clan is midway through a tournament and loses a group of players and find themselves unable to continue (in Genoke's example if they lose 4 players, they wouldn't be able to compete in CL5 according to the tournament rules), a punishment would fall on the remnants of the clan that presumably would prefer to continue with the event rather than on the guilty parties that left them hanging. What if that group of players was recruited to join a different clan? That second clan would be the guilty party in destroying the first clan's ability to participate. Punishing the first clan means they're suffering not just the loss of members but also punitive penalties on top of it. Punitive penalties of this sort make the clan a less desirable home for potential recruits which makes it even harder for them to recover.

I also understand the flip side of all this is that a clan is responsible for its players and its commitments. But clan members have varying levels of familiarity and commitment to each other, and smaller clans that are concerned about the consequences of losing members would have to be much more careful in screening members for their level of commitment before allowing new recruits to join.

Another aspect of all of this is that the clan tournaments are annual events. Yet, how stable is a clan's membership over the course of a year? I know there are well-established clans that have members that have there for years. There are also quite a few players that have switched clans every year or two. Josko brought up ACC1 and said that TOFU had dropped out of it partway through. I don't know anything about it - I wasn't involved in clans when that happened two years ago - and as far as I can tell, a good 2/3-3/4 of the current TOFU membership weren't part of that decision. Or take PACK. They dropped out of CC4 because they don't have enough active members. Assuming they remain as a clan and actively recruit, they could be 3-4 times their current size by next year when CC5 starts. Should all those new recruits be prevented from playing in the new war? Punitive penalties should fall on the guilty, not the innocent, and I can't figure out a good way to assign guilt. If a clan is forced to drop because several of their members left to join a different clan, that new clan could be penalized, but if members leave for multiple clans, which departure(s) are actually to blame for causing the clan to drop out, and who should be penalized?

I think the only approach that makes any sense is to say that if you drop out of a clan event you've signed up for (and the event has already started), your clan should have to complete a war before signing up for the next version of that event (or maybe before signing up for any new events). That falls in line with the requirement on new clans to complete a clan war before joining some of the premier events.

At the same time, I think we're blowing out of proportion how much impact these sorts of things have. PACK leaving CC4 resulted in a bye in the first round. How many clans did it impact? It meant one of the clans in the play-in round would have gone straight through if PACK has simply never signed up, or when compared to PACK staying in, the only difference was a bye for one clan. Compared to the alternatives, you either have 1 clan slightly positively impacted, or you have 1 clan marginally negatively affected. AOC and Empire leaving mid-way through CL5 qual round was a bit more disruptive since the qualification groups were a bit smaller, but they probably would have been that size to begin with if AOC and Empire hadn't joined. I'm sure it was a record-keeping hassle for qwert, but it wasn't a major impact. TOFU withdrawing from CL5-PL results in a bye for each of the other PL clans (a slight positive for the other clans) compared to if TOFU stayed in.

In any case, Conquer Club is about having fun. If you start penalizing people for things other people did a year ago, it just makes it a lot less fun. Supposedly CClub is declining. I don't know about that, but I know if you start obligating people to do things their real-life commitments won't let them, or if you start punishing them for placing a higher priority on the things in life that actually matter, you're not going to ultimately see a positive outcome.

[shoop76]

When did CC become obligatory rather than voluntary?
If I enter into a game that isn't full, then decide later I don't want to play for whatever reason and drop...am I to be punished?

I agree cc is voluntary when it comes to regular pick up games. However, when someone joins a tournament or clan you make a deeper commitment. Dropping an event has consequences for more people than just yourself. RL happens but I believe clan leaders need to take this into account. Some clans can function with few members (we were down to 11 a couple months back), while others can't. Clans should plan accordingly for this.

[Qwert]

eddie
cl5 (this is run by qwert but clan moderators are telling him what to do.)

Well this its not true.

qwert the format was yours but the rules you had to follow what cd/s told you to do.. this can be proven by the fact dako would not follow the demands of the clan moderation to follow there rules they wanted and got removed from running the event.... so even though you think you are in charge you are not because if you ever go against something that you are told to do you face being removed from organization,, how does it feel to be a puppet.

Format are mine,and rules are build together with community(even you participate in this, and some of your suggestion are implement). There its no secret rules, and i work by rules ,and Cd not overturn any rule in CL5.
And i dont follow how rules for CC4 are build, and this its between CD and Dako.
Im not puppet, and CD not give me orders, and we work strictly by rule(who are build together). I even have some demands, and they accept that. Of course you can have opinion like that, but this its wrong opinion.
We are partners in this competition, but if you dont believe in that, then this its your problem.

[comic boy]

Further to Docs point , the membership of this site is down around 30 % from its peak , you think more rules ( on a supposedly fun site ) will reverse that trend I have been Conqueror and part of 2 CC cup winning clans , you think Im going to pay money to be told what games I have to play in future ?
We are being told this is a major problem but as Dako has pointed out it is in fact minimal , I am told that my scenario is unlikely yet 2 major clans have experienced such in the last few weeks , a bit more pragmatism and a lot less bullshit would be most welcome.
As Freakns has pointed out both PACK and TOFU have already been punished , by losing key members , thats the reason they both pulled out of competitions. Do you really think kicking clans when they are down is fair or justified , for every bile spitting clown that it pleases , 10 other site members will be disgusted.

[Foxglove]

Further to Docs point , the membership of this site is down around 30 % from its peak , you think more rules ( on a supposedly fun site ) will reverse that trend I have been Conqueror and part of 2 CC cup winning clans

When were you in KORT? If memory serves me correctly, THOTA didn't win CC1 or CC2.

, you think Im going to pay money to be told what games I have to play in future ?
We are being told this is a major problem but as Dako has pointed out it is in fact minimal , I am told that my scenario is unlikely yet 2 major clans have experienced such in the last few weeks , a bit more pragmatism and a lot less bullshit would be most welcome.
As Freakns has pointed out both PACK and TOFU have already been punished , by losing key members , thats the reason they both pulled out of competitions. Do you really think kicking clans when they are down is fair or justified , for every bile spitting clown that it pleases , 10 other site members will be disgusted.

I don't believe there are any realistic punishments that would have any sort of useful effect. So we'll just have to stick to hurtful words and name-calling.

Though perhaps a clan that drops out of a major event shouldn't be allowed to join and participate in another major event unless they demonstrate actual increased clan membership. So if a clan says that they can't compete because they don't have enough members, they shouldn't be allowed to participate in the next event unless they actually demonstrate that they have recruited more players. And simply saying "our people are back from vacation now!" shouldn't be enough, because presumably some of those people might go on vacation again at some point.

[comic boy]

Foxie you are probably right , I had it in my head that we won the first cup but in retrospect I think that was before it became official. As to name calling , you need to look closer to home to see who started that this time around , nobody from TOFU was spamming threads regurgatating past grievances.
As for your last point i feel it has some merit , if a clan becomes dangerously low on members then it seems reasonable to ask them to demonstrate a change in circumstances before joining new competitions.

[The Voice]

Both sides have merit. For those who are in favor of a punishment, is a slight point deduction in the F400 worth considering? Just throwing it out there.

[Foxglove]

As to name calling , you need to look closer to home to see who started that this time around , nobody from TOFU was spamming threads regurgatating past grievances.

Shhhhhhshhhhhhhh, I was making a funny joke. It obviously went over well.

As for your last point i feel it has some merit , if a clan becomes dangerously low on members then it seems reasonable to ask them to demonstrate a change in circumstances before joining new competitions.

Yes, I meant that as a legitimate comment - particularly when so many clans are joining these months and year+ long competitions.

[Doc_Brown]

Both sides have merit. For those who are in favor of a punishment, is a slight point deduction in the F400 worth considering? Just throwing it out there.

I think IcePack vetoed that already. The problem is that the ranks are re-calculated based on a list of results. You can't just add a point penalty in there without re-writing the algorithm. Maybe you could create a dummy "war" that gives the desired point loss for the clan in question, but that would require entering a new dummy clan into the list that would receive points for the win, and as that dummy clan receives more "wins" the effective penalty changes for future clans, and it becomes a huge mess.