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oVo wrote:Do not confuse a person's limited options with a lack of free will.
chang50 wrote:oVo wrote:Do not confuse a person's limited options with a lack of free will.
Can you elaborate on that please?
crispybits wrote:If by "he" you mean Sam Harris Woodruff, then yes he is. There is a chain of causality leading to that pee and in essence you can do nothing other than what your own chain of causality leads you to. Thinking that you have the choice is an illusion, the societal pressures and biological pressures will interact in such a way that you peeing on the sidewalk is just as inevitable as the path of a ripple on a pond shortly after you throw a stone in the water.
Dukasaur wrote:chang50 wrote:oVo wrote:Do not confuse a person's limited options with a lack of free will.
Can you elaborate on that please?
No, don't. You must not.
BigBallinStalin wrote:I'm siding with Haggis on this one. If anyone wants to clearly define 'free will', then we can have a discussion about it.
Dukasaur wrote:I'm not bothered by the fact that free will is an illusion. As long as it's a good and tangible illusion, I can enjoy it....
As long as some combination of beer, schnitzel, and fellatio lets me pretend that I'm enjoying my life, I'm happy to maintain the pretense.
crispybits wrote:The ability to choose our own actions from whatever limited subset is actually possible for us to perform/act out/whatever?
BigBallinStalin wrote:I know what I'll be re-wwatching soon.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Suppose the speaker of the video wished to be a woman, but couldn't afford the operation and years of speech therapy.
Does this mean he/she doesn't have free will?
Or are financial/physical constraints distinct from free will?
If financial, physical, mental, etc. constraints are distinct from free will, then people have free will. Everyone is limited in some way when it comes to some imagined alternative life we can have (different job, banging scarlett johanson, not 100% control over one's brain/consciousness, etc.), but that's how the world is.
It's not deterministic, in that you could never bang scarlett johanson. If that was your goal, some people are capable of taking that opportunity through much planning and difficult work (other people might not have to face such a high barrier). This doesn't mean they we have 'different' free wills.
Free will is about making choices. The opposite--in my opinion--is the denial of choice. For example, the government attempts to prohibit you from exercising your choice when it comes to illegal drugs, settling outside of court with criminals, etc.
Metsfanmax wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:Suppose the speaker of the video wished to be a woman, but couldn't afford the operation and years of speech therapy.
Does this mean he/she doesn't have free will?
Or are financial/physical constraints distinct from free will?
If financial, physical, mental, etc. constraints are distinct from free will, then people have free will. Everyone is limited in some way when it comes to some imagined alternative life we can have (different job, banging scarlett johanson, not 100% control over one's brain/consciousness, etc.), but that's how the world is.
It's not deterministic, in that you could never bang scarlett johanson. If that was your goal, some people are capable of taking that opportunity through much planning and difficult work (other people might not have to face such a high barrier). This doesn't mean they we have 'different' free wills.
Free will is about making choices. The opposite--in my opinion--is the denial of choice. For example, the government attempts to prohibit you from exercising your choice when it comes to illegal drugs, settling outside of court with criminals, etc.
If free will is about making choices, then it doesn't matter what the range of possible choices is, as long as a person is capable of making a choice. I may be physically restrained in a state prison cell, but they can't stop me from making choices. If I believe I have free will even though I do not have a rocket with which I can go the moon and so I am stuck on the prison that is planet Earth, similarly I would believe that I have free will even though I am stuck in the prison that is Sing Sing. The debate about free will is really a question about whether we make choices at all, or whether everything we think and say is the inevitable result of our environment.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
Metsfanmax wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:Suppose the speaker of the video wished to be a woman, but couldn't afford the operation and years of speech therapy.
Does this mean he/she doesn't have free will?
Or are financial/physical constraints distinct from free will?
If financial, physical, mental, etc. constraints are distinct from free will, then people have free will. Everyone is limited in some way when it comes to some imagined alternative life we can have (different job, banging scarlett johanson, not 100% control over one's brain/consciousness, etc.), but that's how the world is.
It's not deterministic, in that you could never bang scarlett johanson. If that was your goal, some people are capable of taking that opportunity through much planning and difficult work (other people might not have to face such a high barrier). This doesn't mean they we have 'different' free wills.
Free will is about making choices. The opposite--in my opinion--is the denial of choice. For example, the government attempts to prohibit you from exercising your choice when it comes to illegal drugs, settling outside of court with criminals, etc.
If free will is about making choices, then it doesn't matter what the range of possible choices is, as long as a person is capable of making a choice. I may be physically restrained in a state prison cell, but they can't stop me from making choices. If I believe I have free will even though I do not have a rocket with which I can go the moon and so I am stuck on the prison that is planet Earth, similarly I would believe that I have free will even though I am stuck in the prison that is Sing Sing. The debate about free will is really a question about whether we make choices at all, or whether everything we think and say is the inevitable result of our environment.
betiko wrote:Well if you watched the video harris is clearly saying that our conscience is driven by our subconscience, which i think is untrue and it s the foundation of his theory.
Haggis_McMutton wrote:To the "no free will" people, I ask this: Is a universe where free will exists(according to your definition) even possible? What are the main characteristics of this universe? What empirical test could we do to distinguish between our universe and this hypothetical universe. If you can't imagine a universe where free will might exist, then I say your definition of free will is meaningless. If you can't think of an empirical test to distinguish between the 2 universes then I say that "a difference that makes no difference is no difference" and would conclude the two are the same.
crispybits wrote:Haggis_McMutton wrote:To the "no free will" people, I ask this: Is a universe where free will exists(according to your definition) even possible? What are the main characteristics of this universe? What empirical test could we do to distinguish between our universe and this hypothetical universe. If you can't imagine a universe where free will might exist, then I say your definition of free will is meaningless. If you can't think of an empirical test to distinguish between the 2 universes then I say that "a difference that makes no difference is no difference" and would conclude the two are the same.
This is not my proper answer either because I just woke up and still a bit bleary but I would say that this universe would have to be dualistic, and the empirical test would be to find a region of our brain that acts in a way that cannot be explained either by deterministic causality or quantum probability. I'm not a neuroscience expert so I don't know enough about how the brain works to say exactly how that test could be done as we're talking about things like "the good experience you had 7 years ago has a causal effect on the decision you make today" but the fundamental theory is that this would be the test.
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