Americans

[Titanic]

It's happening. Bush will be gone soon, the boys will come home, Iraq will take care of itself

You mean decend into worse chaos and violence then at the moment, become flooded with extremists backed by violent terrorist organisations and funded by Iran, which ultimately will lead into civil war and create a haven for terrorists and help the militant cause?

Be careful, your starting to sound like John Bolton.

[b.k. barunt]

Yes folks, the republican party is proud of their Brit supporters (i.e. "Wankers for Bush).

[DirtyDishSoap]

It's happening. Bush will be gone soon, the boys will come home, Iraq will take care of itself

You mean decend into worse chaos and violence then at the moment, become flooded with extremists backed by violent terrorist organisations and funded by Iran, which ultimately will lead into civil war and create a haven for terrorists and help the militant cause?

Be careful, your starting to sound like John Bolton.

its either that or another 10 freaking years of sending people to try and modernize the eastern world with western influence

[b.k. barunt]

In the Islamic religion, anyone who is not a follower of Allah is an infidel. Sadam Hussein may have been a monster, but he was not an infidel, which is worse. We are not only a nation of infidels to the arab world, we are "The Great Satan". This belief is held by Islam as a whole, both Shiites and Sunnis. The Sunnis collaborate with us as a means to an end - which is how Sadam came to power, but they still consider us the Great Satan. Now think about it - how is the arab world going to view any government installed by The Great Satan? Anyone who takes part in it will be viewed as a traitor to Islam. Terrorists are "freedom fighters" to the majority of most young arabs, and many of the old. All the energies of all these terrorists are going to be focused on Iraq as long as we are there, because we are The Great Satan, forcing ourselves on an Islamic nation. With all this in mind, what kind of brain dead wanker would advocate our staying there?

[helmut]

In the Islamic religion, anyone who is not a follower of Allah is an infidel. Sadam Hussein may have been a monster, but he was not an infidel, which is worse. We are not only a nation of infidels to the arab world, we are "The Great Satan". This belief is held by Islam as a whole, both Shiites and Sunnis. The Sunnis collaborate with us as a means to an end - which is how Sadam came to power, but they still consider us the Great Satan. Now think about it - how is the arab world going to view any government installed by The Great Satan? Anyone who takes part in it will be viewed as a traitor to Islam. Terrorists are "freedom fighters" to the majority of most young arabs, and many of the old. All the energies of all these terrorists are going to be focused on Iraq as long as we are there, because we are The Great Satan, forcing ourselves on an Islamic nation. With all this in mind, what kind of brain dead wanker would advocate our staying there?

All too true.

[Titanic]

It's happening. Bush will be gone soon, the boys will come home, Iraq will take care of itself

You mean decend into worse chaos and violence then at the moment, become flooded with extremists backed by violent terrorist organisations and funded by Iran, which ultimately will lead into civil war and create a haven for terrorists and help the militant cause?

Be careful, your starting to sound like John Bolton.

its either that or another 10 freaking years of sending people to try and modernize the eastern world with western influence

Eastern world? What exactly is the eastern world?

Also, pulling out is not an option, neither is setting a timetable. They need to boost the Iraqi Police, army and security numbers, train them properly, then put them in charge and keep the coalition troops to back them up. Slowly, over a number of months the coalition troop numbers drop, but they keep the helicopters and other advanced artillery there to support them whilst the Iraqis slowly take control of their own country.

In the Islamic religion, anyone who is not a follower of Allah is an infidel. Sadam Hussein may have been a monster, but he was not an infidel, which is worse. We are not only a nation of infidels to the arab world, we are "The Great Satan". This belief is held by Islam as a whole, both Shiites and Sunnis. The Sunnis collaborate with us as a means to an end - which is how Sadam came to power, but they still consider us the Great Satan. Now think about it - how is the arab world going to view any government installed by The Great Satan? Anyone who takes part in it will be viewed as a traitor to Islam. Terrorists are "freedom fighters" to the majority of most young arabs, and many of the old. All the energies of all these terrorists are going to be focused on Iraq as long as we are there, because we are The Great Satan, forcing ourselves on an Islamic nation. With all this in mind, what kind of brain dead wanker would advocate our staying there?

Absolute and utter bullshit. You are saying that Islam itself is evil, and that the majority of Arabs are united in our destruction. If that is so, why was there widespread condemnation of 9/11 throughout the majority of the Arab world? If that is so, why have there been protests in Turkey recently with upto 1 million people to MAKE SURE THE ISLAMIC COUNTRY STAYS SECULAR, AND DOES NOT TURN RELIGIOUS. If that is so, why were the Iraqis jubilent after the overthrow of Saddam? If that is so, why did the Northern Allaince and Pakistan fully support the overthrow of the Taliban and the implementation of an American led system? If that is so, why is Dubai, Qatar and Bahrain such a hot spot for the western world and the richest people in the world?

I'll tell you why, because wherever you got that belief from is utter and compelte bullshit. Its biased, its factually wrong, its stereotyping, its the attitude which is not helping peace.

[steve-O]

in civics we watched some video on what msulin extremists showed thier "soldiers" and it had the statue of liberty with burning eyes and a satan tail thing and in its hand that spear thing that satan would hold.

I personally thought that it was funny

[Backglass]

You mean decend into worse chaos and violence then at the moment, become flooded with extremists backed by violent terrorist organisations and funded by Iran, which ultimately will lead into civil war and create a haven for terrorists and help the militant cause?

I disagree with your fortune telling. WE are the fuel for the fire. We leave and the biggest reason for them to keep on fighting leaves with us. Would they settle down, hold hands and sing love songs? Of course not but WE are invaders in their eyes...not liberators.

Be careful, your starting to sound like John Bolton.

And you sound like George W. Bush.

[DirtyDishSoap]

It's happening. Bush will be gone soon, the boys will come home, Iraq will take care of itself

You mean decend into worse chaos and violence then at the moment, become flooded with extremists backed by violent terrorist organisations and funded by Iran, which ultimately will lead into civil war and create a haven for terrorists and help the militant cause?

Be careful, your starting to sound like John Bolton.

its either that or another 10 freaking years of sending people to try and modernize the eastern world with western influence

Eastern world? What exactly is the eastern world?

Also, pulling out is not an option, neither is setting a timetable. They need to boost the Iraqi Police, army and security numbers, train them properly, then put them in charge and keep the coalition troops to back them up. Slowly, over a number of months the coalition troop numbers drop, but they keep the helicopters and other advanced artillery there to support them whilst the Iraqis slowly take control of their own country.

the iron curtain thats still present even after the cold war is what im talking about (The east and the west)
Pulling out IS an option because were staying there for the wrong reasons

see the whole thing you just talked about there is western influence
The thing we are actually trying to do to them is trying to convert them into a Christian order which is pretty wrong considaering we only came there looking for Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Lets not forget we put in power a faction thats already dominating everyone else and will pretty much wipe everyone else out (From my point of veiw, Bush wants this to happen, to have all factions to kill eachother fighting until only one is left, he just boosted it quite a bit)
Another reason we are there is for oil, im pretty sure i dont want to die for oil when i join the army

What im saying is that the option of pulling out is valid and should be used ASAP

[0ojakeo0]

pulling out of iraq is like pulling out of sex....it works sometimes

[Wind Warrior]

sigh... The fighting between the "Eastern" and "Western" world's have been going on for centuries each having the upper hand over the other in one point or another Bush is focusing so much on the middle East there's quite a bit of room for Russia, China, Japan or another country that can utilize the shadows the best. (espionage and/or Imperial talk)

[b.k. barunt]

Titanic, i have never heard a British right winger rant before - you sound just like the Bush loving wankers we have here. I mean, you quote the same contrived "news" stories and all. Go figure.

[dcowboys055]

What im saying is that the option of pulling out is valid and should be used ASAP

Well what do you think would happen then?

[b.k. barunt]

Probably the same thing that's happening now - but we wouldn't be spending billions of dollars on it. Oh, and Haliburton stock would go down.

[Titanic]

Titanic, i have never heard a British right winger rant before - you sound just like the Bush loving wankers we have here. I mean, you quote the same contrived "news" stories and all. Go figure.

I hate Bush. Right wing rant? If thats so, answer these questions which all of you have convieniantly avoided.

You are saying that Islam itself is evil, and that the majority of Arabs are united in our destruction. If that is so, why was there widespread condemnation of 9/11 throughout the majority of the Arab world? If that is so, why have there been protests in Turkey recently with upto 1 million people to MAKE SURE THE ISLAMIC COUNTRY STAYS SECULAR, AND DOES NOT TURN RELIGIOUS. If that is so, why were the Iraqis jubilent after the overthrow of Saddam? If that is so, why did the Northern Allaince and Pakistan fully support the overthrow of the Taliban and the implementation of an American led system? If that is so, why is Dubai, Qatar and Bahrain such a hot spot for the western world and the richest people in the world?

I disagree with your fortune telling. WE are the fuel for the fire. We leave and the biggest reason for them to keep on fighting leaves with us. Would they settle down, hold hands and sing love songs? Of course not but WE are invaders in their eyes...not liberators.

The majority of the deaths does not involve coalition troops. Its suicide bombings against Iraqi citizens. The bombing of markets and streets and mosques and houses is not because we are there. Its because its sectarian warfare. Their fighting between themselves now, and if we go it will be all out war because there is no major force stopping them coming out onto the street and openly fighting.

the iron curtain thats still present even after the cold war is what im talking about (The east and the west)

Iraq was never in the Iron Curtain...A lot of the former USSR is now in the EU, and quite a few of the others are voluntarily democracising and tackling human rights and corruption.

The thing we are actually trying to do to them is trying to convert them into a Christian order which is pretty wrong

What?!? We're trying to make Afghans and Iraqis Christian? Wtf are you on about?

What im saying is that the option of pulling out is valid and should be used ASAP

No because of the disastrous effects it would have upon Iraq, which is our fault and we should try to at least give the Iraqis a chance when we leave.

[b.k. barunt]

Obviously the meaning of the word "question" eludes you. But i will reply to one of your statements. The Iraqi citizens who are being attacked is not "sectarian" warfare, but Moslems attacking those of their own who collaborate with the "Great Satan". Once we leave, these attacks will continue until the collaborators are dead. I have no soft spot in my heart for traitors, so this doesn't faze me a whole lot. Basically though, i say enough of our young men have died - let them fend for themselves. Oh, and when you look up "question" in the dictionary, you might want to see how to spell "conveniently. I'm not a grammar nazi, but you have no idea how stupid that makes you look.

[civver]

pulling out of iraq is like pulling out of sex....it works sometimes

Not really

[Titanic]

Obviously the meaning of the word "question" eludes you. But i will reply to one of your statements. The Iraqi citizens who are being attacked is not "sectarian" warfare, but Moslems attacking those of their own who collaborate with the "Great Satan". Once we leave, these attacks will continue until the collaborators are dead. I have no soft spot in my heart for traitors, so this doesn't faze me a whole lot. Basically though, i say enough of our young men have died - let them fend for themselves. Oh, and when you look up "question" in the dictionary, you might want to see how to spell "conveniently. I'm not a grammar nazi, but you have no idea how stupid that makes you look.

This coming from a person who said this?

Titanic, i have never heard a British right winger rant before - you sound just like the Bush loving wankers we have here. I mean, you quote the same contrived "news" stories and all. Go figure.

Show me a source from any expert who has studied the Iraq war and show me where they say that the violence there is because of the collaboration of Muslims with the "Great Satan". Thats just racist. Muslims do not believe that, and the violence there is not because of that. How come the Saudi Royal family have not been overthrown by the Muslims as they work a lot with the west and the USA. As do Dubai, as do Lebonan, as do the rest of UAE, as do Qatar, as do Bahrain, as do Turkey, as do Pakistan. They all cooperate and worl witht he west, yet theres no threats of them heling the "Great Satan" is there? Why? Because its not true, its sectarian warfare in Iraq. Shia vs Sunni mainly. Some Shia and Sunni do also attack coalition troops, but some of them also help out the coalition troops and are in the government.

[Guiscard]

OK... I'm ignoring the bollocks DirtyDishSoap has been spouting, because it is obviously childish, ignorant and uneducated (and makes absolutely no sense - convert them to Christianity? Cold War?)...

But I would like to deal with the contention (by Backglass and others) that the violence in Iraq is solely down to foreign presence there.

There are numerous and varied splits and grudges between elements of the Iraqi population, as well as in relation to other Muslim nations, and resistance to the occupation is only one of them.

Barunt, for one, has managed to completely ignore the incredibly divisive split within the Muslim world of Shia and Sunni Muslims. To say that they are entirely united in their opposition to those who work with 'the great satan' is entirely ridiculous and shows an ignorant black-and-white view of the world. The Sunni Muslim minority previously held power of the Shiite majority, and now the tables have been turned. Shia Muslims are now in power and this alienates the Sunni. Although there are elements of both groups fighting the occupation, there are also significant elements fighting each other for control of the country and of local areas. Previously mixed neighbourhoods are rapidly becoming segregated, with Sunni and Shia separating. Shia death squads are prowling the streets executing Sunni men not because they are somehow 'in league' with the Americans but because they are Sunni. Some see it as the rumblings of ethnic cleansing. Do we really want to have the blood of a genocide on our hands if we leave Iraq now?

We can also look at the Kurdish north, long subdued and abused by Saddam, which would move for separatism as soon as the last American left the country. The Kurds are not Arabs, and they do not consider themselves united in any way with those in the rest of Iraq. They do, however, consider themselves a nation whose people are, in reality, part of Turkey, Syria and Iran as well as Iraq. Turkey, for one, is very much scared of the possibility of a Kurdish uprising to unite with a nationalised Kurdish movement in Iraq if the Americans leave. Iran may have a tighter hold on its Kurdish population, but the same issue does exist there. This is an example of how sectarian divisions in Iraq will not just effect the country itself.

It is a mixed up situation, and there is certainly a great deal of violence directed at the occupation, but you cannot categorically dismiss the myriad causes of sectarian violence in Iraq.

Basically though, i say enough of our young men have died - let them fend for themselves.

This is what makes me the most fucking angry... We went in and caused this conflict. We created the insurgency and we destabilised the country to the very brink of civil war. However many of your young men die fighting in Iraq, it pails in comparison to the civilians losing their lives even now - around 3000 US soldiers compared to anywhere between 70,000 - 600,000 Iraqi citizens. Do you think when we leave that figure will just disappear? No. it will escalate. Their blood is on our hands already, and it will be all over our fucking arms if we pull out just because our golden boys are dying out there.

We started it, rightly or wrongly, and we should finish it, else we'll have a sea of blood at our door. 'Leaving them to it' is not an option. Not by any stretch.

[helmut]

Obviously the meaning of the word "question" eludes you. But i will reply to one of your statements. The Iraqi citizens who are being attacked is not "sectarian" warfare, but Moslems attacking those of their own who collaborate with the "Great Satan". Once we leave, these attacks will continue until the collaborators are dead. I have no soft spot in my heart for traitors, so this doesn't faze me a whole lot. Basically though, i say enough of our young men have died - let them fend for themselves. Oh, and when you look up "question" in the dictionary, you might want to see how to spell "conveniently. I'm not a grammar nazi, but you have no idea how stupid that makes you look.

This coming from a person who said this?

Titanic, i have never heard a British right winger rant before - you sound just like the Bush loving wankers we have here. I mean, you quote the same contrived "news" stories and all. Go figure.

How come the Saudi Royal family have not been overthrown by the Muslims as they work a lot with the west and the USA. As do Dubai, as do Lebonan, as do the rest of UAE, as do Qatar, as do Bahrain, as do Turkey, as do Pakistan.

Actually, the Saudi government has been overthrown several times in coups. Cousins taking over from cousins, etc. And there actually is a lot of anger directed at the Saudi royal family by the common citizens. Because Saudi Arabia is a very, very, very rich country, the citizens are not as prone to desperate violence as those in Iraq. When Iraq invaded Kuwait a few years back, Osama Bin Laden volunteered his enormous, multinational extremist Arab militia to defend Saudi Arabia should Iraq invade there. The King refused, opting instead to allow a quarter million U.S. troops into the country to defend its oil supplies. Needless to say, this offended Bin Laden. It also offended many Saudis, including royals, who were uncomfortable with so many infidels so near the holy land. Bin Laden has carried out small scale attacks periodically since then.

Please do some research before spouting trash about subjects you don't know anything about. I suggest you read Blood and Oil, by Michael T. Klare.

[Stopper]

Toto! I've got a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!

[Avron]

Thank you Dirtydishsoap, I actually laughed my ass off when I read that, no I'm not trying to make fun of you I just found it funny. Was that serious man?

[Jenos Ridan]

You guys are seriously starting to piss me off. Why don't you get off your fucking high horses and contribute something to society for once instead of just stealing knowledge and wealth from 3rd world countries. All you're good for is hate and pron.

Seriously, f*ck off!

Yeah, well, historically we have been a 'melting pot' of ideas. Barring some societial travasty, that we never change. A great many of the greatest inventions of human history were patented in the US sortly after 1777 AD (I refuse to date with that BCE-crap). Art, Science, Industry, Medicine, a lot of advances have been made in the past and alot still are. Also, we have a hold on the global market and communication networks in addition to many top-notch universities and myriad decent colleges.

Jealous? You should be, and thus you should be trying to have what we have or better. Don't like it, well then here is what you should do: cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it!

[Humous]

You actually owe an awful lot more to france than most probably realise.
But then again, the War did kind of bakrupt Necker and Louis the XVI, so you did actually, if only indirectly, contribute to the glorious missed oppurtunity that was the French Revolution.
In fact, most people owe alot to France...
This should be a new topic.
Maybe.
Nah.

[Iz Man]

You actually owe an awful lot more to france than most probably realise.
But then again, the War did kind of bakrupt Necker and Louis the XVI, so you did actually, if only indirectly, contribute to the glorious missed oppurtunity that was the French Revolution.
In fact, most people owe alot to France...
This should be a new topic.
Maybe.
Nah.

We did owe France quite a bit.
We also payed them back on 6-Jun-44....