Fog and Obscurity

[Mr Changsha]

There are currently 1321 active dubs, trips or quads games in the fog.
There are 856 active dubs, trips or quads games being played sunny.

Now that's quite a difference, but of course could simply be put down to player's preferences.

What interests me more, is that I would say 80%+ of the clan games that MM are involved in are played foggy. It is perfectly normal for me to scan the opposition's home list for trips and find not one sunny game.

Added to the fact that I seem to be just about the only player who plays basic geographical maps in clan competition (heh heh..at least clans MM are playing), one can't help but feel that CC (at the sharp end of clan wars) has moved beyond the game I know and become something else.

Clan wars now seem to me to be about choosing the most complicated\obscure maps and settings (if allowed), throwing in fog so that the opposition has even less chance of competing and hoping that map knowledge trumps strategic ability.

I accept that is a gross generalisation (not all foggy games are played on that basis), but as an overall view of the clan scene today I think it is accurate.

I was asked a while ago how I would reform clan wars. Well, I would limit the fog option to 50% of games. Frankly, I would also require clans to play 33% of their games on basic maps (assuming one could define a basic map). My main point is that this game shouldn't be about beating others because they happen to be ignorant of the obscure map and settings combination you have worked on. It should be about playing a fair and even game and then beating the opposition square.

[Armandolas]

What is wrong with fog and "complicated maps"? Just because you dont know how to play them it doesn mean they are really complicated.
For me is a pleasure to play fog. Imo is much enjoyable than sunny.I Found boring to know allready where all the enemies are.People need to be more focused. Do calculations.Try to guess where oppo as deployed.Wich neutral did the guy take...etcSo i find it much more challenging .

In clan games, clans choose their maps to win the games. You cant force a clan to choose some maps or settings just to make sure u have more chances to win

[Mr Changsha]

What is wrong with fog and "complicated maps"? Just because you dont know how to play them it doesn mean they are really complicated.
For me is a pleasure to play fog. Imo is much enjoyable than sunny.I Found boring to know allready where all the enemies are.People need to be more focused. Do calculations.Try to guess where oppo as deployed.Wich neutral did the guy take...etcSo i find it much more challenging .

In clan games, clans choose their maps to win the games. You cant force a clan to choose some maps or settings just to make sure u have more chances to win

This isn't about me personally 'having more chances to win'; I play what I play.

I am just far from convinced that the way CC has evolved (clans searching for ever more variations on the obscure) is right.

It seems that many clans aspire to have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.

[benga]

So you are lazy and others are not.

[iAmCaffeine]

You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.

[BigBallinStalin]

I don't like fog because it introduces too much risk. It makes me upset.

[BigBallinStalin]

You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.

Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.

[Mr Changsha]

You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.

Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.

There is a lot of truth to this BBS!

But I wonder if you are entirely comfortable (in terms of the overall state of the game) with a clan playing 100% of their games in the fog when about 39% of total team games are played sunny.

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

However, if we consider the first 20 games LEGION have sent us in our challenge 19 out of 20 (95%) of those games are foggy. I'm not picking on LEGION btw, I would think this is pretty standard stuff.

So roughly 46% of non tournament\clan team games on this site are actually played sunny, but conservatively I would say 80% of clan games are played foggy. Now I don't have anything against foggy games, but I think the difference between clan and non-clan games on this point is very interesting. Combined with clans also choosing complicated or obscure maps with further unusual settings, then we begin to approach clan strategy number 1:

To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.

I'm not saying clans get that with every game and war, but I think it is what most are aiming for. Btw, I consider foggy team games on otherwise standard settings and typical maps to be as valid as anything else we play. My issue is with the combination of fog and exploiting the vast number of maps we now have and the ridiculous number of settings to win games through taking advantage of obscurity.

[iAmCaffeine]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

[Mr Changsha]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.

But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.

Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy

Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?

That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)

[BigBallinStalin]

You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.

Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.

There is a lot of truth to this BBS!

But I wonder if you are entirely comfortable (in terms of the overall state of the game) with a clan playing 100% of their games in the fog when about 39% of total team games are played sunny.

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

However, if we consider the first 20 games LEGION have sent us in our challenge 19 out of 20 (95%) of those games are foggy. I'm not picking on LEGION btw, I would think this is pretty standard stuff.

So roughly 46% of non tournament\clan team games on this site are actually played sunny, but conservatively I would say 80% of clan games are played foggy. Now I don't have anything against foggy games, but I think the difference between clan and non-clan games on this point is very interesting. Combined with clans also choosing complicated or obscure maps with further unusual settings, then we begin to approach clan strategy number 1:

To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.

I'm not saying clans get that with every game and war, but I think it is what most are aiming for. Btw, I consider foggy team games on otherwise standard settings and typical maps to be as valid as anything else we play. My issue is with the combination of fog and exploiting the vast number of maps we now have and the ridiculous number of settings to win games through taking advantage of obscurity.

Sure, it's a bit disconcerting, and it does obscure our ability to separate Great Strategists from Great Exploiters.

Most people will reject having to play more sunny clan games because they want to avoid costs (and they're afraid). The opening move requires more intensive study; the enemy can see all possible mistakes you've made; and the enemy can more easily follow the map.

Then again the sunny-siders are scared about more risk. "What lurks behind those shadows? Is he building there for the counterattack, or is he building over there to secure that bonus?" Sweat pours from the sunny-sider's brow as uncertainty wreaks his feeble mind.

Why do I play foggy games? Only for the sheer joy of giving people like Mr C headaches.

[Mr Changsha]

You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.

Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.

There is a lot of truth to this BBS!

But I wonder if you are entirely comfortable (in terms of the overall state of the game) with a clan playing 100% of their games in the fog when about 39% of total team games are played sunny.

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

However, if we consider the first 20 games LEGION have sent us in our challenge 19 out of 20 (95%) of those games are foggy. I'm not picking on LEGION btw, I would think this is pretty standard stuff.

So roughly 46% of non tournament\clan team games on this site are actually played sunny, but conservatively I would say 80% of clan games are played foggy. Now I don't have anything against foggy games, but I think the difference between clan and non-clan games on this point is very interesting. Combined with clans also choosing complicated or obscure maps with further unusual settings, then we begin to approach clan strategy number 1:

To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.

I'm not saying clans get that with every game and war, but I think it is what most are aiming for. Btw, I consider foggy team games on otherwise standard settings and typical maps to be as valid as anything else we play. My issue is with the combination of fog and exploiting the vast number of maps we now have and the ridiculous number of settings to win games through taking advantage of obscurity.

Sure, it's a bit disconcerting, and it does obscure our ability to separate Great Strategists from Great Exploiters.

Most people will reject having to play more sunny clan games because they want to avoid costs (and they're afraid). The opening move requires more intensive study; the enemy can see all possible mistakes you've made; and the enemy can more easily follow the map.

Then again the sunny-siders are scared about more risk. "What lurks behind those shadows? Is he building there for the counterattack, or is he building over there to secure that bonus?" Sweat pours from the sunny-sider's brow as uncertainty wreaks his feeble mind.

Why do I play foggy games? Only for the sheer joy of giving people like Mr C headaches.

[iAmCaffeine]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.

But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.

Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy

Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?

That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)

I disagree. In clan games you obviously want to field the strongest home roster possible, whilst sharing the love amongst your clan members. However, the majority play competitively in or out of clan wars and would play the same maps and settings public or not.

If you can find cases of people playing on a map without fog in public games and then with fog in clan wars then prove me wrong, but I doubt there will be many results.

[Mr Changsha]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.

But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.

Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy

Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?

That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)

I disagree. In clan games you obviously want to field the strongest home roster possible, whilst sharing the love amongst your clan members. However, the majority play competitively in or out of clan wars and would play the same maps and settings public or not.

If you can find cases of people playing on a map without fog in public games and then with fog in clan wars then prove me wrong, but I doubt there will be many results.

I don't think I have to do that at all. The same people who play clan games also play public and private games and are doing both at the same time. If a clan makes 95% of their games foggy, do you seriously believe that those same clan members are playing overall 95% foggy, bearing in mind that only 54% of total public and private games are foggy? And forget about an individual clan. Let's say the great majority of clans are creating 80%+ foggy clan games (as they are) but they also play non clan team games (which they of course do), it makes no sense to suggest that clan players are playing as many clan games foggy as they are public or private, if you accept my (rough) estimate that 80% of clan games are foggy and my (exact) 54% of public and private games are played foggy.

But you did stumble on to something important when you wrote...

In clan games you obviously want to field the strongest home roster possible

Indeed!

So let's take foggy, add in the most complicated maps, then drop a pinch of new settings into the pot and what is a clan aiming for?

To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.

I'm not saying all clans are doing that, not at all. But I think the expansion in maps and settings plus allowing clans to use them almost without limit (or not enough limit) is encouraging it.

[loutil]

I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.

[iAmCaffeine]

@MrC (I don't want quotes to get too long) - Yes, I do believe that the majority of players starting clan games in the fog would play more or less the same percentage of public games.

[BigBallinStalin]

I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.

That's because you're no good at sunny. The suns beats out your brain cells, so you always faint.. I've seen it, and frankly, it's embarrassing.

With fog, you do get a higher chance of recovery--e.g. building up somewhere unexpected. What I like about sunny is that you really have to plan the first move very well; with fog, you have a little bit more room for bullshitting.

[AndyDufresne]

As a proponent of spy satellites and drones and aerial reconnaissance in general, I much prefer sunny.


--Andy

[Mr Changsha]

I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.

That's because you're no good at sunny. The suns beats out your brain cells, so you always faint.. I've seen it, and frankly, it's embarrassing.

With fog, you do get a higher chance of recovery--e.g. building up somewhere unexpected. What I like about sunny is that you really have to plan the first move very well; with fog, you have a little bit more room for bullshitting.

It is certainly possible to come back from a bad drop or dice playing sunny. I won't be as rude about your sunny skills as BBS, but I do know that if one is a 'proper sunny player' then great comebacks can be achieved. For example in this game against iamcaffeine Game 13031520 my team were 24 down on dice entering the mid.game and came back to win.

Generally I equate skill at a setting as 'the ability to absorb bad dice and come back'. You can do it foggy, because you are very skilled at that. If you can't do it sunny then you aren't as skilled at sunny. I know that if I am playing for some strange reason a foggy game I will need some good dice to win, while playing sunny I am confident I can absorb bad dice and still prevail.

So no, I don't accept the idea that foggy takes more skill than sunny. It takes a different kind of skill.

[iAmCaffeine]

I love how you choose a game against me just because I disagree, even if it is over a different point of the debate.

[Mr Changsha]

I love how you choose a game against me just because I disagree, even if it is over a different point of the debate.

I chose a game against you because you are in the thread AND happen to have played in an example of a sunny game which reversed sharply in the mid.game.

Don't be so sensitive iAmCaffeine!

[Arama86n]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.

But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.

Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy

Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?

That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)

I've always thought you a very smart man Mr Changsha. This thread, and your questions puzzle me, if it was Someone else of experience asking them I'd think them trolling.
I have begun several replies to different posts in this thread, but cut myself off from irritation when I find myself stating the obvious.

My opinion would be that foggy games require more effort, thus the clan that puts in more effort into their games profits from their use. Why the best clans use fog thus becomes apparent. Why the mid-level clans use it needs only slightly more imagination. They imitate the strategies of the top clans and practice them in the hopes of one day becoming a top clan. (with a little more imagination it could be argued that trying to beat a clan you know to be superior at it's own game is a fools task, and other tactics might be used here, but I shall leave that avenue unexplored)
Why bottom ranked clans use fog is a question without a definitive answer I'd say, the reasons vary and are not always sound perhaps.
If I was tasked with leading 20ish likely privates and sergeants against TOFU I would probably stay in the sun, and the likes of Waterloo and Conquer Rome would NOT be found on the list of our homes games... And with that little hint I'll rest my case.

I could give you an A4 in clarification of this, but I believe you already know the answer. And I don't care to waste my time arguing with fools that would disagree with the obvious.

[loutil]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.

But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.

Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy

Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?

That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)

I've always thought you a very smart man Mr Changsha. This thread, and your questions puzzle me, if it was Someone else of experience asking them I'd think them trolling.
I have begun several replies to different posts in this thread, but cut myself off from irritation when I find myself stating the obvious.

My opinion would be that foggy games require more effort, thus the clan that puts in more effort into their games profits from their use. Why the best clans use fog thus becomes apparent. Why the mid-level clans use it needs only slightly more imagination. They imitate the strategies of the top clans and practice them in the hopes of one day becoming a top clan. (with a little more imagination it could be argued that trying to beat a clan you know to be superior at it's own game is a fools task, and other tactics might be used here, but I shall leave that avenue unexplored)
Why bottom ranked clans use fog is a question without a definitive answer I'd say, the reasons vary and are not always sound perhaps.
If I was tasked with leading 20ish likely privates and sergeants against TOFU I would probably stay in the sun, and the likes of Waterloo and Conquer Rome would NOT be found on the list of our homes games... And with that little hint I'll rest my case.

I could give you an A4 in clarification of this, but I believe you already know the answer. And I don't care to waste my time arguing with fools that would disagree with the obvious.

This is just a more eloquent way of expressing my thoughts. Fog takes more skill as I already stated even if you disagree Mr C. If you and I played 20 random games with half being fog and half sunny I do believe, everything else being equal (the dice) you would come out behind. You supposed advantage with sunny would be less (my opinion) than my supposed advantage in the fog. You think I avoid sunny games because I am not as good at it. This is patently false. I do not play sunny because I find my tactical skills increase my probability of a win when playing in the fog.

[Dukasaur]

I prefer to play Sunny most of the time. Not in all situations or on all maps, but most of the time. It has nothing to do with being unable to analyze logs, but with resenting the time that it takes.

Now, if I was in the delectable position of owning a business that runs itself while I play Conquer Club, I might feel differently, but being a working-class joe who's expected to actually work while at work, I want my games to be pleasure, not more work. By the time I come home, I've already spent 14 hours carefully analyzing GPS data to see why my trucks didn't meet their circuit times. The last thing I want to do is more painstaking analysis. I want to just look at the map, see instantly that some fucknuts is building up to take London from me or whatever, and go, <click, boom>, "There ya go, fucknuts! How do you like me now?" while pounding back a couple quick rye-and-cokes, getting ready to jerk off and go to sleep and be ready for another gruelling 14 hour day tomorrow.

People who have time to analyse logs = Idle Rich Class.

[Mr Changsha]

Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)

You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.

Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.

But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.

Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy

Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?

That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)

I've always thought you a very smart man Mr Changsha. This thread, and your questions puzzle me, if it was Someone else of experience asking them I'd think them trolling.
I have begun several replies to different posts in this thread, but cut myself off from irritation when I find myself stating the obvious.

My opinion would be that foggy games require more effort, thus the clan that puts in more effort into their games profits from their use. Why the best clans use fog thus becomes apparent. Why the mid-level clans use it needs only slightly more imagination. They imitate the strategies of the top clans and practice them in the hopes of one day becoming a top clan. (with a little more imagination it could be argued that trying to beat a clan you know to be superior at it's own game is a fools task, and other tactics might be used here, but I shall leave that avenue unexplored)
Why bottom ranked clans use fog is a question without a definitive answer I'd say, the reasons vary and are not always sound perhaps.
If I was tasked with leading 20ish likely privates and sergeants against TOFU I would probably stay in the sun, and the likes of Waterloo and Conquer Rome would NOT be found on the list of our homes games... And with that little hint I'll rest my case.

I could give you an A4 in clarification of this, but I believe you already know the answer. And I don't care to waste my time arguing with fools that would disagree with the obvious.

This is just a more eloquent way of expressing my thoughts. Fog takes more skill as I already stated even if you disagree Mr C. If you and I played 20 random games with half being fog and half sunny I do believe, everything else being equal (the dice) you would come out behind. You supposed advantage with sunny would be less (my opinion) than my supposed advantage in the fog. You think I avoid sunny games because I am not as good at it. This is patently false. I do not play sunny because I find my tactical skills increase my probability of a win when playing in the fog.

I was merely responding to your own words loutil...

I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.

I overcome bad drops and dice regularly playing sunny. The idea that if you can't do it then no one can is flawed. But then I specialise in a narrow form of the game and it is all I do. Let's be real here, I wouldn't play it if I couldn't overcome bad drops and dice.

However I of course accept that in the match-up you described you would win. There can be absolutely no doubt about it. I am a pathetic foggy player, and while I would think my sunny skills are sharper than yours on geographical maps (and I would) you would crush me foggy, just as you would crush me sunny on complex maps. But then you are a far more-rounded player than I and I salute you for it. However, I'm not sure what that proves with regards to this thread. IF the argument is that clan players play foggy because it is inherently more skillful than sunny then I would reject it. They require different skills.

Clans play foggy (and obscure maps + settings don't forget that element to this) for a different reason and I will come on to that in a little while..