Why is god mysterious?

Colossus · Post by **Colossus** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:35 pm

is it me or does some random comment that Jay makes seem to hijack every thread about God? Sorry for getting off-topic, all, but I couldn't leave the free will thing alone.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:40 pm

Colossus wrote:ok, so your explanation is that God can see what's going to happen for the next minute or so? gimme a break, man. If I see a guy I know well (as God knows us all well) walk up the stairs with a girl, I can guess with pretty high accuracy that he will kiss her. That's not 'seeing the future;' it's simple deduction.

point well missed.

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:06 pm

Don't bother Colossus, some time ago I already tried to explain to jay why omniscience and free will are incompatible. He didn't get it then either but lashed out at my definition of "knowledge" despite it being essentially the same as his, only spelled out.

cloud · Post by **cloud** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:07 pm

so that explains this topic lol

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
Colossus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.
You cannot be serious. How can God know what choice we will make if we have 100% free will? That is completely paradoxical. If God knows what we will choose, then we have no choice. If God knows what we will choose, then choices are already made. If God knows what choices we will make, then he cannot possibly have given us free will, nor can any person have faith in salvation. You are a believer in 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior', yes? Okay, so if you believe in salvation, then doesn't God already friggin' KNOW who he's gonna save and who he won't? Man, your version of God is a spoiled kid with an ant farm, a spotlight, and a magnifying glass.

Seriously, Jay, wake up.
You are 15 and you and your girlfriend are coming home from a date. You think to yourself, "Should I kiss her?". God seeing the future already knows that you will decide to kiss her, that she will slap you and that you will never date her again. Why? Because HE CAN SEE INTO THE FUTURE! And knows before hand what WE will do, before we do it. ITS STILL FREE WILL!

Bollocks.

The argument for free will is a strong one, but it immediately rids God of his omniscience.

If he has always known what choices we will make and he created the world, humanity and everything else then we are not exercising free will because our actions are pre-determined. From the very second he brought the world into existence our actions were determined, or else there are infinite possibilities and he cannot know which path we will take.

It is a paradox as old as theology itself I'm afraid, and it cannot be answered without resorting to 'We cannot understand God' which, to an Atheist, is absolute bullshit. You understand him enough to obey his every word in a 2000 year old text, and you seem to know in intricate detail his plans for the end of days, yet theists often resort to his transcendence in the face of logical and reasonable criticism.

Anyway, I'd like to bring back the fact that he is omnibenevolent and that is entirely contradicted by, to use your horrific example, the holocaust! Whether or not we have free will, he is still a sadistic and evil God if he is allowing such pain and suffering, such death, all to get us into heaven. He could put us all there to begin with, but he doesn't. Can you give me an answer to why he allows suffering at all without resorting to biblical babble? I want to hear a logical and well reasoned explanation from you, Jay, without insulting millions of Jewish families by excusing the holocaust as 'fulfilling prophecy'.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:32 pm

Backglass wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Prayer. God answers the prayers of His people.
Superstition. Millions of people pray and sometimes those prayers come true. You say it was the work of a god...I say it was random chance.

Either your god doesn't give a sh*t about the 99.9% he ignores...or this god doesn't exist.

jay_a2j wrote:God wishes that no man should perish (in hell).
If this is really all your god wants, then all it needs to do is appear in the sky (as we talked about before) with a voice heard planet wide. BOOM! Instant planet of worshipers, nobody perishes in hell, satan is out of work.

But that isn't going to happen, so evidently you are either wrong about what this god wishes...or this god doesn't exist.

jay_a2j wrote:One should not be concerned with the death of the body as much as the death of the spirit. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. If your spirit is right with God you will not fear a death of the body.
This is just Religious Valium. Many people have a hard time comprehending the finality of death so men have invented a magical afterlife and sky-daddy to take care of you when you die. This way you can sleep at night and go on with your life unburdened. But that doesn't make it real.

I always loved this quote: "Since time immemorial, the powerful have used religion to distract the oppressed, to encourage them to focus on the next world so that they will acquiesce to the injustices of this world. If you would have your slaves remain docile, teach them hymns." - Ed Weathers

You forget freedom of will, which you happen to be exercising now. But heavycola, good point. the whole 'God works in mysterious ways' is a cop-out. God will only effect us here at an individual level, as was His plan.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:35 pm

Daring Overlord5 wrote:In a response to the first post, God gave all of us free will to do what we choose. If he interveins, we don't have free will. You can think what you like and disreguard my post, that's your choice to do so.

And in response to another post, it takes faith. If we knew everything, what good would that do? There would be noreason to believe, we would just take it for granted.

As I just stated. Again, we have the simple but hard choice to either love God as He loves us or to spit in His face by living in sin.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:48 pm

chewyman wrote:The existence of God is constantly argued about in philosophy. I came to the conclusion long ago that any debate was pointless. Atheists use logical arguments. God is illogical (as is the very notion of omnipotence) and therefore cannot be proven through logic, some other form of rationing is required, in this case: faith. I'm not really concerned which one of these you choose, and I'm not saying that either one is better than the other, that's you're decision.

That is kinda the whole point of faith, we cannot save ourselves.

heavycola wrote:
Daring Overlord5 wrote:In a response to the first post, God gave all of us free will to do what we choose. If he interveins, we don't have free will. You can think what you like and disreguard my post, that's your choice to do so.
What does catching smallpox have to do with free will? God DOES intervene all the time, apparently, so why does he do it so randomly?

Look i think my point is being missed.

I'm not very good at religeous matters, but basically you guys are asking and answering why, if there is so much evil and death (and that god loves us so much) why doesnt he step in.
yeah, almost - the question is why has his personality changed so much since biblical times? he intervened all the time back then, saved his people (and made them slaves), got angry, destroyed cities, the red sea thing, etc etc. And we UNDERSTAND him because he is behaving in a RECOGNISABLY HUMAN WAY. But not any more. Name me one compassionate human being you know who, given the right powers, would not wipe out malaria? or would not warn those pacific islanders that a tsunami was on its way?

This is not quite an argument about why god allows evil, it is about why such an anthropomorphic being, according to the bible, behaves today in such a different, arbitrary and cruel way. He is supposed to be timeless and immutable - but he's changed. What i want to know is how you explain this schizophrenia?

Didn't you just say that the OT Covenent was ended by the Passion? I remember you used that arguement in a thread on homosexuallity. So, one moment you're using the Bible to justify an un-biblical positon, and now here you are forgetful of your own position. What happened?

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed May 23, 2007 5:00 pm

unriggable wrote:Religion wasn't made to control. It was made to give answers. Look up 'Jhn Frum' on wikipedia.

Agreed.

Wind Warrior · Post by **Wind Warrior** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:26 pm

Question if you believe in god would you follow all of his/her orders?

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:29 pm

Neutrino wrote:I would like to point out that the Da Vinci Code was a work of fiction and should be treated as such. I am endlessly amazed at people who can get so worked up about something that was never meant to be true.

I would like to point out that the Bible was a work of fiction and should be treated as such. I am endlessly amazed at people who can get so worked up about something that isn't true.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:30 pm

Wind Warrior wrote:Question if you believe in god would you follow all of his/her orders?

Anyone who doesnt ask the questions....what nature of God and what are the nature of the orders...probably isnt thinking hard enough about the question you ask.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:38 pm

Jay what the hell is the point of prayer if the future is already there?

God isn't going to re-write the future just because a guy in Nevada wants to have sex with a waitress.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:55 pm

Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Colossus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.
You cannot be serious. How can God know what choice we will make if we have 100% free will? That is completely paradoxical. If God knows what we will choose, then we have no choice. If God knows what we will choose, then choices are already made. If God knows what choices we will make, then he cannot possibly have given us free will, nor can any person have faith in salvation. You are a believer in 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior', yes? Okay, so if you believe in salvation, then doesn't God already friggin' KNOW who he's gonna save and who he won't? Man, your version of God is a spoiled kid with an ant farm, a spotlight, and a magnifying glass.

Seriously, Jay, wake up.
You are 15 and you and your girlfriend are coming home from a date. You think to yourself, "Should I kiss her?". God seeing the future already knows that you will decide to kiss her, that she will slap you and that you will never date her again. Why? Because HE CAN SEE INTO THE FUTURE! And knows before hand what WE will do, before we do it. ITS STILL FREE WILL!
Bollocks.

The argument for free will is a strong one, but it immediately rids God of his omniscience.

If he has always known what choices we will make and he created the world, humanity and everything else then we are not exercising free will because our actions are pre-determined. From the very second he brought the world into existence our actions were determined, or else there are infinite possibilities and he cannot know which path we will take.

It is a paradox as old as theology itself I'm afraid, and it cannot be answered without resorting to 'We cannot understand God' which, to an Atheist, is absolute bullshit. You understand him enough to obey his every word in a 2000 year old text, and you seem to know in intricate detail his plans for the end of days, yet theists often resort to his transcendence in the face of logical and reasonable criticism.

Anyway, I'd like to bring back the fact that he is omnibenevolent and that is entirely contradicted by, to use your horrific example, the holocaust! Whether or not we have free will, he is still a sadistic and evil God if he is allowing such pain and suffering, such death, all to get us into heaven. He could put us all there to begin with, but he doesn't. Can you give me an answer to why he allows suffering at all without resorting to biblical babble? I want to hear a logical and well reasoned explanation from you, Jay, without insulting millions of Jewish families by excusing the holocaust as 'fulfilling prophecy'.

It is not "pre-determined"! Pre-known yes but God has not determined what actions we choose! Its like going back to December 7th 1941 in a time machine. We would know that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked but we aren't controlling it! It isn't pre-determined, we just know what is going to happen! (Does not understand why this is so hard to grasp)

The Holocaust was man's FREE WILL! You talk as if God himself rounded up the Jews! Don't get mad at God for the evil that men do! I do not even pretend to follow your reasoning.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:03 pm

unriggable wrote:Jay what the hell is the point of prayer if the future is already there?

God isn't going to re-write the future just because a guy in Nevada wants to have sex with a waitress.

Just as with anything else, God knows the future. When people pray they can effect the future. (but God will know this before hand) Lets say a bunch of Christians pray that China becomes a Christian nation. Provided it is in God's will it may come to pass. But God already would know that the prayers for this were coming and the results thereof. If the same people did not pray, it may not come to pass. And again God would know this beforehand.

Aries · Post by **Aries** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:04 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:Jay what the hell is the point of prayer if the future is already there?

God isn't going to re-write the future just because a guy in Nevada wants to have sex with a waitress.
Just as with anything else, God knows the future. When people pray they can effect the future. (but God will know this before hand) Lets say a bunch of Christians pray that China becomes a Christian nation. Provided it is in God's will it may come to pass. But God already would know that the prayers for this were coming and the results thereof. If the same people did not pray, it may not come to pass. And again God would know this beforehand.

Good point

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:34 pm

Aries wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:Jay what the hell is the point of prayer if the future is already there?

God isn't going to re-write the future just because a guy in Nevada wants to have sex with a waitress.
Just as with anything else, God knows the future. When people pray they can effect the future. (but God will know this before hand) Lets say a bunch of Christians pray that China becomes a Christian nation. Provided it is in God's will it may come to pass. But God already would know that the prayers for this were coming and the results thereof. If the same people did not pray, it may not come to pass. And again God would know this beforehand.
Good point

So you're saying prayer is essentially futile because you aren't changing the future.

Makes no sense since God can see the future, yet by making the Jews his Chosen people and interfering in their lives he makes them go through with tons of shit.

Splash · Post by **Splash** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:39 pm

god is a mystery, i don't belive it, but can't there be a god?

Colossus · Post by **Colossus** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:54 pm

okay, I'm taking MeDeFe's advice and not wasting my breath trying to enumerate the paradoxical things that Jay has said. heretoforth, when Jay shows up in one of these threads, I guess I'll just move on elsewhere. Jay, you, sir, have clearly chosen to abandon logic for blind, unthinking dogmatism which you claim is faith. True faith is the willingness to ask the questions with an open mind and trusting that the Lord will help you find new truths. I simply do not understand how you can divest yourself of your reasoning mind, a mind which is arguably the greatest gift that God gave you.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:33 pm

I accept your concession.

2dimes · Post by **2dimes** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:48 pm

Because Chuck Norris says so.

I guess this wasn't on fox so Jay hasn't seen it.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Thu May 24, 2007 12:21 am

Jesus ate my baby!

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:19 am

That's not Chuck Norris! He didn't kick anyone's head off!

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Thu May 24, 2007 12:24 pm

jay_a2j wrote: It is not "pre-determined"! Pre-known yes but God has not determined what actions we choose! Its like going back to December 7th 1941 in a time machine. We would know that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked but we aren't controlling it! It isn't pre-determined, we just know what is going to happen! (Does not understand why this is so hard to grasp)

To observe and to know is, naturally, to determine what will happen in the future. If we went back in time to December 7th 1941 then the very act of our being there would change the future in a certain way. We would breathe air which would have been un-interrupted otherwise... Ever watch 'Back to the future'? How the hell can God know what is going to happen and yet we still have free choice? This is a recognised theological paradox, and you haven't yet attempted to answer it in any form, not even the standard rebuttals given by the major scholars. If I have to choose either a cheese or ham sandwich I seem to have free choice, but God know I will choose Cheese and so, in reality the choice was already pre-determined. There was no way I could have chosen ham, else God would have to limit himself to 'knowing' a series of possibilities rather than the choice itself. It is not a hard paradox to understand, and it is one studied in any basic philosophy or theology course. Jay, you don't even seem to be able to grasp the problem so I seriously doubt whether this is worth debating any further.

jay_a2j wrote: The Holocaust was man's FREE WILL! You talk as if God himself rounded up the Jews! Don't get mad at God for the evil that men do! I do not even pretend to follow your reasoning.

As for this, again bollocks! If I see my child with his finger over a button which will murder 6 million people what do I do? I do everything in my power to stop him pressing that button because I am benevolent and I have the power to stop him. THAT is the problem. I can accept that man perpetrated the holocaust through free will, but I cannot accept or believe in a God who allowed man to do that. I don't know whether you bothered to read or digest the quote I posted earlier, but I'll post it again:

Dostoyevsky's Ivan Karamazov wrote:Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature- that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance- and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect on those conditions?

And perhaps this Buddhist passage may also help illustrate what I'm saying:

The Bhûridatta Jataka wrote:If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!

You are perfectly willing to believe God intervened in the world to aid the birth of the United States by providing complementary weather, but you will not consider the fact that he could have intervened to stop the holocaust. The problem of evil is a massive one, and it has severe repercussions for theists as a valid and accepted rebuttal has yet to be proposed either in this thread or by academia in general.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Thu May 24, 2007 12:30 pm

hey guis...admittedly i havent done as much theological mumbo jumbo lately. I was wondering if you knew any good places to look (either internet or not) for good stuff on either one of the issues you presented in the last post. Im pretty familiar with the argument of evil (and i find it highly unlikely it will be able to be dealt with by theist here - not necesarily a knock against the theist so much as its a pretty strong argument) and with free will/Theodicy but i could always use some more info, and i think you categorically know more than i do lol.

Why is god mysterious?

Re: Why is god mysterious?