Shed your chains, fly among the clouds

[mrswdk]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... rvey-finds

At the bottom of the list was China where only 6% of people said they were religious while 61% said they were convinced atheists

Hooray for China, nation of the future. Say goodbye to the past, embrace tomorrow!

[mrswdk]

Sweep out the cobwebs, free your minds!

"The Four Olds or the Four Old Things were Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas. One of the stated goals of the Cultural Revolution in the People's Republic of China was to bring an end to the Four Olds."

LIberation!

[khazalid]

would that be the same country which, despite stringent government efforts to discourage religious activity, including the demolition of churches, will very shortly be home to the largest population of christians in the world?

that is to say nothing of the muslims, taoists, buddhists and others...

lastly: that's a mixed metaphor. i figure you of all people must have read Marx

[khazalid]

According to the results of an official census provided in 1995 by the Information Office of the State Council of China, at that time the Chinese traditional religions were already popular among nearly 1 billion people.[65]
2005: a survey of the religiosity of urban Chinese from the five cities of Beijing, Shanghai, Nantong, Wuhan and Baoding, conducted by professor Xinzhong Yao, found that only 5.3% of the analysed population belonged to religious organisations, while 51.8% were non religious, in that they did not belong to any religious association. Nevertheless, 23.8% of the population regularly worshipped gods and ancestors, 23.1% worshipped Buddha or identified themselves as Buddhists, up to 38.5% had beliefs and practices associated with the folk religions such as feng shui or belief in celestial powers, and only 32.9% were convinced atheists.[66]
Three surveys conducted respectively in 2005, 2006 and 2007 by the Horizon Research Consultancy Group on a disproportionately urban and suburban sampling, found that Buddhists constituted between 11% and 16% of the total population, Christians were between 2% and 4%, and Muslims approximately 1%.[67] The surveys also found that ~60% of the population believed in concepts such as fate and fortune associated to the folk religion.[67][68]
2007: a survey conducted by the East China Normal University taking into account people from different regions of China, concluded that there were approximately 300 million religious believers (~31% of the total population), of whom the vast majority ascribable to Buddhism, Taoism and folk religions. Some scholars considered this number an underestimate, given possible higher numbers for the Chinese folk religion alone.[69]
2008: a survey conducted in that year by Yu Tao of the University of Oxford with a survey scheme led and supervised by the Center for Chinese Agricultural Policy and the Peking University, analysing the rural populations of the six provinces of Jiangsu, Sichuan, Shaanxi, Jilin, Hebei and Fujian, each representing different geographic and economic regions of China, found that followers of the Chinese folk religions were 31.9% of the analysed population, Buddhists were 10.85%, Christians were 3.93% of which 3.54% Protestants and 0.39% Catholics, and Taoists were 0.71%.[70] The remaining 53.41% of the population claimed to be not religious.[70]
2010: the Chinese Spiritual Life Survey directed by the Purdue University's Center on Religion and Chinese Society concluded that many types of Chinese folk religions and Taoism are practiced by possibly hundreds of millions of people; 56.2% of the total population or 754 million people practiced Chinese ancestral worship[note 2], but only 16% asserting to believe in the existence of ancestral shen; 12.9% or 173 million practiced Taoism on a level indistinguishable from the folk religion; 0.9% or 12 million people identified exclusively as Taoists; 13.8% or 185 million identified as Buddhists, of which 1.3% or 17.3 million had received formal initiation; 2.4% or 33 million identified as Christians, of which 2.2% or 30 million as Protestants (of which only 38% baptised in the official churches) and 0.02% or 3 million as Catholics; and an additional 1.7% or 23 million were Muslims.[72]

thanks, wikipedia. something was clearly amiss.

[waauw]

Vietnam is not in the top 6 most atheist countries

[mrswdk]

According to the results of an official census provided in 1995 by the Information Office of the State Council of China, at that time the Chinese traditional religions were already popular among nearly 1 billion people.[65]
2005: a survey of the religiosity of urban Chinese from the five cities of Beijing, Shanghai, Nantong, Wuhan and Baoding, conducted by professor Xinzhong Yao, found that only 5.3% of the analysed population belonged to religious organisations, while 51.8% were non religious, in that they did not belong to any religious association. Nevertheless, 23.8% of the population regularly worshipped gods and ancestors, 23.1% worshipped Buddha or identified themselves as Buddhists, up to 38.5% had beliefs and practices associated with the folk religions such as feng shui or belief in celestial powers, and only 32.9% were convinced atheists.[66]
Three surveys conducted respectively in 2005, 2006 and 2007 by the Horizon Research Consultancy Group on a disproportionately urban and suburban sampling, found that Buddhists constituted between 11% and 16% of the total population, Christians were between 2% and 4%, and Muslims approximately 1%.[67] The surveys also found that ~60% of the population believed in concepts such as fate and fortune associated to the folk religion.[67][68]
2007: a survey conducted by the East China Normal University taking into account people from different regions of China, concluded that there were approximately 300 million religious believers (~31% of the total population), of whom the vast majority ascribable to Buddhism, Taoism and folk religions. Some scholars considered this number an underestimate, given possible higher numbers for the Chinese folk religion alone.[69]
2008: a survey conducted in that year by Yu Tao of the University of Oxford with a survey scheme led and supervised by the Center for Chinese Agricultural Policy and the Peking University, analysing the rural populations of the six provinces of Jiangsu, Sichuan, Shaanxi, Jilin, Hebei and Fujian, each representing different geographic and economic regions of China, found that followers of the Chinese folk religions were 31.9% of the analysed population, Buddhists were 10.85%, Christians were 3.93% of which 3.54% Protestants and 0.39% Catholics, and Taoists were 0.71%.[70] The remaining 53.41% of the population claimed to be not religious.[70]
2010: the Chinese Spiritual Life Survey directed by the Purdue University's Center on Religion and Chinese Society concluded that many types of Chinese folk religions and Taoism are practiced by possibly hundreds of millions of people; 56.2% of the total population or 754 million people practiced Chinese ancestral worship[note 2], but only 16% asserting to believe in the existence of ancestral shen; 12.9% or 173 million practiced Taoism on a level indistinguishable from the folk religion; 0.9% or 12 million people identified exclusively as Taoists; 13.8% or 185 million identified as Buddhists, of which 1.3% or 17.3 million had received formal initiation; 2.4% or 33 million identified as Christians, of which 2.2% or 30 million as Protestants (of which only 38% baptised in the official churches) and 0.02% or 3 million as Catholics; and an additional 1.7% or 23 million were Muslims.[72]

thanks, wikipedia. something was clearly amiss.

I'm going to trust my population survey conducted in 2015 over a Wikipedia article mashed together from a variety of old, contradictory sources.

[mrswdk]

Soaring so high we can literally see the future. Try not to get dizzy.

[nietzsche]

What happened in russia when communism collapsed? Yes they became openly religious again, as soon as they were allowed to say it.

[khazalid]

Soaring so high we can literally see the future. Try not to get dizzy.

i've got it. it's all a piece of dubious performance art, and you are going to ride the coattails of this confabulated meta-satire all the way to the today show, Mao willing.

[waauw]

I have a question. Is buddhism a religion or a philosophy? Most people seem to call it a religion though buddhism doesn't actually worship a deity.

[tzor]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/12/uk-one-of-worlds-least-religious-countries-survey-finds

At the bottom of the list was China where only 6% of people said they were religious while 61% said they were convinced atheists

There is an odd irony about both the UK and China. You see, in the United Kingdom, a very long time ago, King Henry VIII took over all the churches (and distributed the property to his friends) and claimed to be in charge of religion.

In China, all religion is controlled directly by the government and those not kissing central government's ass are generally persecuted. "Unregistered religious groups—including house churches, Falun Gong, Tibetan Buddhists, underground Catholics, and Uyghur Muslims—face varying degrees of harassment, including imprisonment, torture, and forced religious conversion."

So, think of it. If you are an Underground Catholic, are you going to admit that to a poll taker?

"China is home to an estimated 12 million Catholics, the majority of whom worship outside the official Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (CPA)."

[mrswdk]

What happened in russia when communism collapsed? Yes they became openly religious again, as soon as they were allowed to say it.

The difference being that China didn't collapse in the retarded way that Russia did.

[mrswdk]

I have a question. Is buddhism a religion or a philosophy? Most people seem to call it a religion though buddhism doesn't actually worship a deity.

In terms of actual, true Buddhism it seems to be stuck somewhere in the middle. People pray to the buddhas in a way that would suggest the buddhas still exist somewhere up in the heavens (which I think is the belief), but then none of the buddhas are regarded as actual deities. Buddhism seems to be caught half way between philosophy and religion, much like Confucianism is.

And then there is 'Buddhism' as seen by the Chinese. One of my friends goes to the same (Buddhist) temple every Spring Festival to pray. I asked him who he prays to he said he doesn't know. He also pays some regards to his ancestors (which is a Confucian thing), and I get the impression that if a Catholic church opened up around the corner from his apartment he'd go there to pray on Sundays as well. Ask him directly and he'll tell you he isn't religious and doesn't believe in any kind of supreme being. The Chinese approach to religion and spirituality is pretty unique.

[mrswdk]

In China, all religion is controlled directly by the government and those not kissing central government's ass are generally persecuted. "Unregistered religious groups—including house churches, Falun Gong, Tibetan Buddhists, underground Catholics, and Uyghur Muslims—face varying degrees of harassment, including imprisonment, torture, and forced religious conversion."

The issues that the government has had with Falun Gong, Tibetan monks and Uyghur Muslims are not strictly related to their religion. Whoever you're quoting there is extrapolating in a not particularly accurate way.

So, think of it. If you are an Underground Catholic, are you going to admit that to a poll taker?

lol. Underground Catholics? Are they the people in berets who went round blowing up Nazis in 1940s France?

[tzor]

lol. Underground Catholics? Are they the people in berets who went round blowing up Nazis in 1940s France?

LOL all you want but you can't hide from us damn Papists! So I'll start with Wikipedia and work my way from there.

Wikipedia Quote

Since the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949 by the Communist Party of China, Catholicism, like all religions, has been permitted to operate only under the supervision of the State Administration for Religious Affairs. All worship must legally be conducted through state-approved churches belonging to the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (CPA), which does not accept the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. In addition to overseeing the practice of the Catholic faith, the CPA espouses politically oriented objectives as well. Liu Bainian, chairman of the CPA and the Bishops Conference of the Catholic Church in China, stated in a 2011 interview that the church needed individuals who "love the country and love religion: politically, they should respect the Constitution, respect the law, and fervently love the socialist motherland.’’[17]

Clergy who resisted this development were subject to oppression, including long imprisonments as in the case of Cardinal Kung, and torture and martyrdom as in the case of Fr. Beda Chang, S.J. Catholic clergy experienced increased supervision. Bishops and priests were forced to engage in degrading menial jobs to earn their living. Foreign missionaries were accused of being foreign agents, ready to turn the country over to imperialist forces.[18] The Holy See reacted with several encyclicals and apostolic letters, including Cupimus Imprimis, Ad Apostolorum principis, and Ad Sinarum gentem.

Some Catholics who recognize the authority of the Holy See choose to worship clandestinely due to the risk of harassment from authorities. Several underground Catholic bishops have been reported disappeared or imprisoned, and harassment of unregistered bishops and priests is common.[19] There are reports of Catholic bishops and priests being forced by authorities to attend the ordination ceremonies for bishops who had not gained Vatican approval.[17] Chinese authorities also have reportedly pressured Catholics to break communion with the Vatican by requiring them to renounce an essential belief in Roman Catholicism, the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. In other instances, however, authorities have permitted Vatican-loyal churches to carry out operations.[19]

A major impediment to the re-establishment of relations between the Vatican and Beijing has been the issue of who appoints the bishops. As a matter of maintaining autonomy and rejecting foreign intervention, the official church has no official contact with the Vatican, and does not recognize its authority. However, in recent years the CPA has allowed for unofficial Vatican approval of ordinations. Although the CPA continues to carry out some ordinations opposed by the Holy See, the majority of CPA bishops are now recognized by both authorities.[20]

In a further sign of rapprochement between the Vatican and Beijing, Pope Benedict XVI invited four Chinese bishops, including two government recognized bishops, one underground bishop, and one underground bishop recently emerged into the registered church, to the October 2005 Synod on the Eucharist.[21] However, Beijing ultimately denied the four bishops the right to attend the meeting.

Here is an article from Crisis Magazine, a very good Catholic news source.

Crisis Magazine Article

The Catholic Church in China is divided between the Underground Roman Catholic Church that has sworn its allegiance to the Vatican, and the Patriotic Church, which supports the Pope but has not sworn an allegiance to him publicly. The Patriotic Church is registered under the Chinese government, while the Underground is not.

...

To fully comprehend the complex nature of the Catholic Church in the country, one should look at the Chinese government and how it influences much of Chinese society. A wealthy Chinese property developer explained:

“The Beijing government has two hands, one that is generous to shake your hand and the other that could grab you with an iron grip if necessary,” he said. “China has two faces, one real and one fake. The real face loves to smile, but the fake one never stops growling.”

He claimed that China could only stay strong if “its government acts as peacemaker on the one hand and an enforcer on the other hand.” He hoped that all Chinese citizens “could be happy, but they should never forget they must accept their boundaries.”

He added his thoughts on religious tolerance: “whether the West believes it or not, the Chinese government is sincere when it says it hopes religion could flourish here, but the people are not permitted to use religion to ignite political rebellions.”

Many Westerners have argued that China is intolerant, undemocratic and dictatorial. Some call for the Vatican to take a tougher stance against Beijing and offer no compromises. Yet that won’t resolve anything. There’s a need to understand Chinese culture better to figure out how to resolve thorny issues.

What are some of these areas of disagreement? The Vatican has raised legitimate concerns over Beijing’s hardline stance against some Catholic beliefs. Government officials refuse to allow Chinese Catholics to recognize the authority of the Pontiff. The Vatican insists that all its faithful in the nation enjoy the rights to “pray freely and remain loyal to the Pope.”

The Vatican asserts its rights to appoint its own bishops, and not let Chinese officials assume this responsibility, because it’s a spiritual not a political act. Catholics abhor the one-child policy in which Chinese families are punished for having multiple children, while forced and voluntary abortions have become commonplace.

The Vatican calls for unity between Underground and Patriotic Catholics, which sounds reasonable since both churches appear to enjoy an unspoken alliance already. The moment is now for Beijing to soften its stance with the Vatican.

China’s government remains reluctant to smooth relations with the Vatican, even though there can be much room for compromise, but Beijing just lacks trust. It continues to fear that a stronger Catholic faith could encourage political dissent or a Chinese Arab Spring.

Yet these fears are groundless, because Chinese Catholics focus on spiritual matters not politics. The Vatican has made a tremendous effort to improve ties with China’s government, and Beijing should demonstrate the same good will or risk a long-term and unnecessary freeze in relations.

[AndyDufresne]

The survey is interesting, but I think there are likely to be some flaws, as definitions for things like "religious" or "not religious" aren't the same to everyone, as they are pretty broad and generic. If they were more clear in their definitions like they were with "convinced atheist" I'd be more interested probably.


--Andy

[macbone]

The numbers are similar to the figures in the CIA World Factbook:

Religions: Buddhist 18.2%, Christian 5.1%, Muslim 1.8%, folk religion 21.9%, Hindu < .1%, Jewish < .1%, other 0.7% (includes Daoist (Taoist)), unaffiliated 52.2%
note: officially atheist (2010 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/ch.html

If you want to be a party member, you have to be an atheist. That's kind of the reverse of American politics. =)

Applicants to the Communist Party of China (CPC) will be rejected in future if they are found to embrace any religion, and existing members forced to denounce their beliefs.

Li Yunlong, a professor at the Party School of the CPC Central Committee told The Global Times: "Party members are banned from joining religions. Believing in communism and atheism is a basic requirement to become a Party member."

Current CPC recruitment procedures state that checking on religious beliefs is the first step towards approving applicants to the Party, and members who are found to have participated in or religions will be required to "rectify" their beliefs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 24034.html

The CCP's official anthem is The Internationale (also used during the Tiananmen Square protests). Here's the second verse of the Chinese version:

從來就沒有什麼救世主，
也不靠神仙皇帝。
要創造人類的幸福，
全靠我們自己！
我們要奪回勞動果實，
讓思想衝破牢籠。
快把那爐火燒得通紅，
趁熱打鐵才能成功！

這是最後的鬥爭，
團結起來到明天，
英特納雄耐爾
就一定要實現。

There has never been any saviour of the world,
Nor deities, nor emperors on which to depend.
To create Mankind's happiness
We must entirely depend on ourselves!
We shall retake the fruits of our labour,
And let the mind burst free from its prison cell.
Let the flames in the furnace burn red-hot,
For only when the iron is hot will we succeed in forging it!

This is the final struggle,
Unite together towards tomorrow,
The Internationale
Shall definitely be realised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intern ... in_Chinese

And Tang Dynasty's version:



Man, I'm tearing up, and I'm not even Communist. =)

[mrswdk]

That links says it's the de facto anthem of the CCP, not official. They're Chinese government officials, not WWE wrestlers.

Now I see why you're so insistent that Taiwan is a country - it's all a simple confusion over the difference between 'de facto' and 'de jure'!

[tzor]

They're Chinese government officials, not WWE wrestlers.

Perhaps that is the problem?

What if politics was more like a soap opera, with writers telling officials, "you have to play the role of the villain this term" and inventing interesting emotional conflicts among the politicians in order to keep us all interested in an otherwise dull and lifeless circus that is politics?

Feel free to ignore this rant, I just came from a town supervisor screening committee meeting yesterday. I really starting to prefer the entertainingly fake drama of the WWE over the not entertaining at all half lying and half crying babies that generally tend to be elected to politics.

[RD5]

Soaring so high we can literally see the future. Try not to get dizzy.

Or drunk on American/European consumerism.

[muy_thaiguy]

Soaring so high we can literally see the future. Try not to get dizzy.

And the future is filled with orange colored smog!

I think the dizziness may not be from the height...

[RD5]

Housecat kabobs! FTW!

[macbone]

Mrswdk, I'm surprised at you! I thought you of all people would know the CCP's de facto anthem! No wonder you still think Taiwan's a "rogue province." =)

[Phatscotty]

Soaring so high we can literally see the future. Try not to get dizzy.

I am dizzy from all the climate change!