Greece: 48 Hours to the End

[saxitoxin]

We haven't had a Greek thread for awhile.

Patches, waauw, Fruitcake, Dukasaur - calling all cars.

[DoomYoshi]

I just had my last crate of gold drachmas reopened.

[patches70]

Why the Greek bailouts have failed explained completely and thoroughly by cats.

[patches70]

On a more optimistic note, the ECB is going to learn exactly what this old saying means-

When someone owes a bank $10,000 and can't pay it back, then that someone has a problem. When someone owes a bank $352 billion, then the bank has a problem.


It will be painful for certain parties (those who are owed by the Greeks) and those parties will do everything they can to make things painful for everyone else, we shouldn't lose our heads over this. The poor dumb bastards who were stupid enough to keep giving loans to Greece to pay off previous loans deserve to go bankrupt. That's the risk part after all, since loaning money to anyone or any nation is a risk of some degree. Defaults happen all the time.

For Greece this is going to be particularly painful, but its the same as taking a really foul tasting medicine to get rid of a particularly nasty illness. It sucks going down but later they'll finally be on the road to a real recovery.
The ECB will no doubt attempt to pass the losses on to the taxpayers and the taxpayers will go along with it, that impulse should be discouraged IMO. Those holding Greek bonds deserve to get sent to the cleaners. They've contributed to years of economic torture and malaise upon the Greek people knowing full well that Greece entered into the EU in the first place by fraud.

Reality, its a hell of a thing. I plan to sit back, eat popcorn and watch on very well amused.

[waauw]

The ECB will no doubt attempt to pass the losses on to the taxpayers and the taxpayers will go along with it, that impulse should be discouraged IMO. Those holding Greek bonds deserve to get sent to the cleaners. They've contributed to years of economic torture and malaise upon the Greek people knowing full well that Greece entered into the EU in the first place by fraud.

I disagree, I think 'not saving Lehman Brothers' was evidence enough that how dangerous that plan is. Now supposedly, according to the tale they're spinning us which isn't per sé true, time was bought over the past few years to significantly lower any contamination risk from Greece. Businesses(governments?) did their best to save themselves and tie the knot just a little tighter around Greece's neck.

Of course it's still Greece's own fault. They implemented their measures too gradually, or just failed to carry them out completely, while countries like Ireland and Portugal did very good jobs. The greeks really just elected the wrong guy. Tsipras anticipated the other PIIGS countries to support them, in reality they were strongly opposed. And Tsipras has made himself extremely unpopular in the rest of europe by first begging europe for money and then insulting us in the media. The guy needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. But hell, a communist party failing is not exactly new to the world.

[mrswdk]

The Greek government lied to creditors and mismanaged its economy for years. It's now demanding that everyone else help it out of its mess. They deserve everything they're getting.

[nietzsche]

yes, and their citizens must suffer the consecuences.

[mrswdk]

It''s their fault too. Isn't that the whole point of Western democracy - all citizens play a role in running their country?

Greek people repeatedly voted for irresponsible governments and now they are paying the price for their irresponsible voting.

[GoranZ]

The Greek government lied to creditors and mismanaged its economy for years. It's now demanding that everyone else help it out of its mess. They deserve everything they're getting.

Hmmm I totally disagree with this... explained with the following pictures...





In less then 10 years after Greece joined the EU its debt jumped from ~25% to ~75%(in 12 years from 25% to 100%). European institutions were giving much more money to Greece then it was able to repay. Someone really fucked up the job in those first 10-12 years and only Greeks can not be hold responsible. After that it was a matter of time when Greek crisis will explode.

According to me the creditors should lose all their money, they deserve that. And the reason is simple, so they will work more on where borrowed money are being used. If they are used for repaying old debts next thing that will follow is bankruptcy.

[nietzsche]

i have no idea about what's happening, but i have a hunch that when everything is said and done, the richer will be richer and the poorer will be poorer. once again.

go on, discuss the details, the ending is the same as always. i bet the plot was already written by shakespeare.

[mrswdk]

i have no idea about what's happening, but i have a hunch that when everything is said and done, the richer will be richer and the poorer will be poorer. once again.

go on, discuss the details, the ending is the same as always. i bet the plot was already written by shakespeare.

The lives of 'the poor' have got consistently better over the last couple of centuries. It's only because these people sit around comparing themselves to their society's richest 1% or 0.1% that they think their life sucks - if they were to compare their lives to those of their grandparents or great-grandparents, they'd see just how good they really have it.

[waauw]

The Greek government lied to creditors and mismanaged its economy for years. It's now demanding that everyone else help it out of its mess. They deserve everything they're getting.

Hmmm I totally disagree with this... explained with the following pictures...





In less then 10 years after Greece joined the EU its debt jumped from ~25% to ~75%(in 12 years from 25% to 100%). European institutions were giving much more money to Greece then it was able to repay. Someone really fucked up the job in those first 10-12 years and only Greeks can not be hold responsible. After that it was a matter of time when Greek crisis will explode.

According to me the creditors should lose all their money, they deserve that. And the reason is simple, so they will work more on where borrowed money are being used. If they are used for repaying old debts next thing that will follow is bankruptcy.

Actually you're both right. Greeced did 'officially' lie, however the other european countries knew they were lieing, which makes responsible as well.
The problem with Greece is that they used a lof of the money they received for mere expenditures rather than strong structural investments. Their social security system was out of proportion, illegal labour was allowed to run its course, the government had too many employees, etc. The truth is, Greece didn't even meet the requirements to join the eurozone and hence should have never been permitted.

[GoranZ]

i have no idea about what's happening, but i have a hunch that when everything is said and done, the richer will be richer and the poorer will be poorer. once again.

go on, discuss the details, the ending is the same as always. i bet the plot was already written by shakespeare.

The lives of 'the poor' have got consistently better over the last couple of centuries. It's only because these people sit around comparing themselves to their society's richest 1% or 0.1% that they think their life sucks - if they were to compare their lives to those of their grandparents or great-grandparents, they'd see just how good they really have it.

You are correct but you are excluding many variables, way too many actually.

If we include the differences between rich and poor of our grandparents or great-grandparents times we will notice the real scale of the inequality in the world. And the word never seen such big inequality.
Enjoy the video.


Greece should have bankrupted in 2008, since then a lot of its debt was in private investors... now it is in the hands of IMF or Europe's state hands. So in reality poor people will pay the bill for the mistakes of the rich people or corrupted governments.

Bottom line... Even now Greece should pay 0(nothing) from its debt. Why? Because in order for things to be changed Europe must start from 0 with proper set of rules. If Greece pays its bills nothing will change and nothing will be learned by Europe. Better to "sacrifice" small country(if you can say it sacrifice) in order to learn something while there is time then to get burned totally from bigger EU member.

Atm Greece has two options:
1. If they continue to pay back their debt to get burned today, tomorrow and after tomorrow
2. To not pay their debt and to get burned today and maybe tomorrow but they will be much better after tomorrow.

P.S. I would chose 2.

[GoranZ]

Greeced did 'officially' lie, however the other european countries knew they were lieing, which makes responsible as well.
The problem with Greece is that they used a lof of the money they received for mere expenditures rather than strong structural investments. Their social security system was out of proportion, illegal labour was allowed to run its course, the government had too many employees, etc. The truth is, Greece didn't even meet the requirements to join the eurozone and hence should have never been permitted.

In other words...
-You can get new loan if you make profitable investment.
-You wont get new loan if you intend to pay back other loan with it or you make nonprofitable investment.

This is proper, and this should have been done, and should be done from now on.

If Europe doesn't learn the lesson with Greece it deserves to be burned again, from larger member like Italy or Spain. But then it will be very serious, and EU might fall apart.



As a side note why EU is making a big favor to Russia by its enforced financial sanctions? It forces Russia to figure out more intelligent ways of financing its projects... and that is the best filtering for only the most profitable projects. If done properly Russia will come out as winner out of the sanctions war on long run... If it isn't done properly current Russian government doesn't deserve to lead Russia.

[waauw]

Bottom line... Even now Greece should pay 0(nothing) from its debt. Why? Because in order for things to be changed Europe must start from 0 with proper set of rules. If Greece pays its bills nothing will change and nothing will be learned by Europe. Better to "sacrifice" small country(if you can say it sacrifice) in order to learn something while there is time then to get burned totally from bigger EU member.

Atm Greece has two options:
1. If they continue to pay back their debt to get burned today, tomorrow and after tomorrow
2. To not pay their debt and to get burned today and maybe tomorrow but they will be much better after tomorrow.

P.S. I would chose 2.

Reality is much more complex than that. If Europe or Greece were to purposelly let itself go bankrupt and refuse to pay its bills, the market would react very negatively to this. You would be setting a precedence, which private investors would use as a motive not to invest in PIIGS bonds AT ALL. When Argentina did this, they were unable to find sufficient funds on the financial markets afterwards. The only ones willing to loan to Argentina were big, well-connected and extremely powerful Hedgefunds that are even more strict than the average investor. After more than 10 years, Argentina is still in trouble.

Who in their right minds would ever want to loan money to a country, that not just can't pay back their loans, but refuses to pay back their loans. When dealing with private investors, image is everything! This is not just a european structural problem. This is how the GLOBAL capitalist system works.

[mrswdk]

i have no idea about what's happening, but i have a hunch that when everything is said and done, the richer will be richer and the poorer will be poorer. once again.

go on, discuss the details, the ending is the same as always. i bet the plot was already written by shakespeare.

The lives of 'the poor' have got consistently better over the last couple of centuries. It's only because these people sit around comparing themselves to their society's richest 1% or 0.1% that they think their life sucks - if they were to compare their lives to those of their grandparents or great-grandparents, they'd see just how good they really have it.

You are correct but you are excluding many variables, way too many actually.

If we include the differences between rich and poor of our grandparents or great-grandparents times we will notice the real scale of the inequality in the world. And the word never seen such big inequality.

So? These people should be happy that their lives are getting better, not whining that their levels of wealth and comfort are not growing at the exact same pace as richer people's.

Greece should have bankrupted in 2008, since then a lot of its debt was in private investors... now it is in the hands of IMF or Europe's state hands. So in reality poor people will pay the bill for the mistakes of the rich people or corrupted governments.

How do you figure that? Public money = poor people's money?

Bottom line... Even now Greece should pay 0(nothing) from its debt. Why? Because in order for things to be changed Europe must start from 0 with proper set of rules. If Greece pays its bills nothing will change and nothing will be learned by Europe. Better to "sacrifice" small country(if you can say it sacrifice) in order to learn something while there is time then to get burned totally from bigger EU member.

That's exactly why Greece should be required to pay its debt. Let Greece go belly up as an example to everyone else of what happens if you screw around.

And as waauw points out, if Greece says that it's not going to be paying the debts it owes then it is going to find it extremely difficult to find creditors in the future. No one wants to lend money to someone who's not going to repay them.

[GoranZ]

i have no idea about what's happening, but i have a hunch that when everything is said and done, the richer will be richer and the poorer will be poorer. once again.

go on, discuss the details, the ending is the same as always. i bet the plot was already written by shakespeare.

The lives of 'the poor' have got consistently better over the last couple of centuries. It's only because these people sit around comparing themselves to their society's richest 1% or 0.1% that they think their life sucks - if they were to compare their lives to those of their grandparents or great-grandparents, they'd see just how good they really have it.

You are correct but you are excluding many variables, way too many actually.

If we include the differences between rich and poor of our grandparents or great-grandparents times we will notice the real scale of the inequality in the world. And the word never seen such big inequality.

So? These people should be happy that their lives are getting better, not whining that their levels of wealth and comfort are not growing at the exact same pace as richer people's.

I guess you didn't watch the video I posted... Watch it then we can talk.

Greece should have bankrupted in 2008, since then a lot of its debt was in private investors... now it is in the hands of IMF or Europe's state hands. So in reality poor people will pay the bill for the mistakes of the rich people or corrupted governments.

How do you figure that? Public money = poor people's money?

No, you are twisting my sentences to what you see fit...
Example:
-Before 2007 Greece was borrowing money from private funds/banks meaning the percentage of poor people's money in those funds was close to 0 if not equal to 0.
-Now after two debt reconstructions majority of the Greeks debt is in the hands of IMF/European governments... that literally means that poor people invested their money to save rich peoples funds/banks.
That is the difference.

Bottom line... Even now Greece should pay 0(nothing) from its debt. Why? Because in order for things to be changed Europe must start from 0 with proper set of rules. If Greece pays its bills nothing will change and nothing will be learned by Europe. Better to "sacrifice" small country(if you can say it sacrifice) in order to learn something while there is time then to get burned totally from bigger EU member.

That's exactly why Greece should be required to pay its debt. Let Greece go belly up as an example to everyone else of what happens if you screw around.

And as waauw points out, if Greece says that it's not going to be paying the debts it owes then it is going to find it extremely difficult to find creditors in the future. No one wants to lend money to someone who's not going to repay them.

Oh really? Are you sure that what you are saying is correct?
For example now Greece is borrowing money so it will return the money that they borrowed previously. If they dont have debt they wont be forced to borrow money in the first place. So in reality Greece wont need to borrow money so those "potential" creditors can put their finger where sun doesn't shine.

In reality if Greece has debt of ~25% there would be a lot more creditors then now, that would be willing to borrow money, since those money wont be used for repaying old debts but for profitable structural projects.

P.S. mrswdk your understanding of Economy and how it works is simply said... POOR

[patches70]

It''s their fault too. Isn't that the whole point of Western democracy - all citizens play a role in running their country?

Greek people repeatedly voted for irresponsible governments and now they are paying the price for their irresponsible voting.

This is a misnomer, it is also a stawman.

The voter has zero say on a central bank's policies and balance sheet. When was the last time the American voter voted about how the Fed operates?

If Greece goes through with its referendum it will be one of the first times in living memory such a thing has happened. Central Banks operate completely divorced from from the public yet it is the central banks that are the most important element of the global economic system.

The real problem is that the Greeks, the EU, the creditors all don't want to admit that the math doesn't work. That's why people yelling this-

That's exactly why Greece should be required to pay its debt.

is so laughable. Greece can't pay the money back. Every loan only puts her deeper and deeper into the hole. The only way Greece gets out of this is debt repudiation. But that ain't gonna happen because if the ECB, IMF, and the rest of the creditors repudiate Greece's debt then the PIIGS (who supposedly oppose Greece according to waauw) will then raise their hands yelling "Where's our repudiation!" and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

As this mess of a house of cards should come tumbling down. Its a travesty, the whole system is unsustainable and immoral. It should all be burned to the ground.

The real kick in the face, as well as a good glimpse into the true nature of the IMF and the usurer in general, was when a few weeks ago the IMF announced that they would give the Ukraine loans even if Ukraine couldn't repay those loans.

Which brings us to the immorality of the system. The purpose of money has long been abused and perverted from its original design. Fiat currencies are unstable, throughout history have had a 100% failure rate and has put nations and the world into the very problems we are seeing now. Virtually every ill of the world can ultimately be traced back to the fiat currency system and it all needs to go down in the flames that fiat currencies always ultimately lead to.


Greece committed fraud to get into the EU, the IMF and the ECB have committed fraud lending to the Greeks. This whole mess is one big example of massive, criminal fraud of the likes that would get any of us regular people tossed straight into prison for and its been and being perpetrated by all parties involved.

I think 'not saving Lehman Brothers' was evidence enough that how dangerous that plan is.

President Bush- "I had to abandon free market principles to save the free market". Remember that one? Ha! Disregarding the fact that we aren't really talking about a free market for a moment, what Bush really meant was- "I had to abandon the free market to protect vital (in our estimation) economic institutions and national security".

What happened to Lehman was natural and what would have happened had there been no intervention would have been a natural market correction that would have left some of the biggest financial players in the world bankrupt. How would the world look today had Bush let the correction happen?
Most likely not much different than today, minus the crippling world wide debt. It would have been a good thing to let it all go down as it should have because it was the financial institutions that abandoned free market principles in the first place and tried (and succeeded) in shifting the consequences of their malinvestments onto other parties.

In a bankruptcy, no wealth is destroyed (unlike shooting wars which actually destroy real wealth). The wealth is simply shifted to other parties. The parties that owned said wealth at the time didn't want that to happen. We'll never know how it would have turned out if we had let things run their course but I can safely say that it wouldn't have been the end of the world. The world would have spun on oblivious with new jockeys riding familiar horses.
This is what will happen with this event as well. There will be hysterics, exaggerations and fear mongering but the world will keep spinning around the sun and people will still be living on her and making due as we always have.
This is a mess, no doubt and it will eventually conclude how it was always going to conclude. Its not like there haven't been plenty of warnings and plenty of precedents throughout history regarding debt, fiat currencies and our current world economic system. It happened back in 1971 the last time and I bet not a one of you even remembers it happening, do you?

Thus as it goes when the webs are spun, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. In the words of Nuland-
"f*ck the EU'.
Touche miss Nuland, and to that I add, "f*ck the fiat currency system". Let it all burn. I'll bring the marshmallows. There will be plenty of sticks lying around, the ones they used to use to beat Greece and other malcontents with.

[mrswdk]

So? These people should be happy that their lives are getting better, not whining that their levels of wealth and comfort are not growing at the exact same pace as richer people's.

I guess you didn't watch the video I posted... Watch it then we can talk.

cba. What's the gist of it?

Greece should have bankrupted in 2008, since then a lot of its debt was in private investors... now it is in the hands of IMF or Europe's state hands. So in reality poor people will pay the bill for the mistakes of the rich people or corrupted governments.

How do you figure that? Public money = poor people's money?

No, you are twisting my sentences to what you see fit...
Example:
-Before 2007 Greece was borrowing money from private funds/banks meaning the percentage of poor people's money in those funds was close to 0 if not equal to 0.
-Now after two debt reconstructions majority of the Greeks debt is in the hands of IMF/European governments... that literally means that poor people invested their money to save rich peoples funds/banks.
That is the difference.

Wrong wrong wrong wrooooooong (to the tune of the Count Dracula song)

The public money being given to Greece is not 'poor people's money'. You think tax money only comes from poor people? And in any case, the IMF/EU money was being invested to stop Greece from collapsing, defaulting and making a messy exit from the Eurozone (i.e. it was to save Greece along with all the other countries tied to Greece).

Bottom line... Even now Greece should pay 0(nothing) from its debt. Why? Because in order for things to be changed Europe must start from 0 with proper set of rules. If Greece pays its bills nothing will change and nothing will be learned by Europe. Better to "sacrifice" small country(if you can say it sacrifice) in order to learn something while there is time then to get burned totally from bigger EU member.

That's exactly why Greece should be required to pay its debt. Let Greece go belly up as an example to everyone else of what happens if you screw around.

And as waauw points out, if Greece says that it's not going to be paying the debts it owes then it is going to find it extremely difficult to find creditors in the future. No one wants to lend money to someone who's not going to repay them.

Oh really? Are you sure that what you are saying is correct?
For example now Greece is borrowing money so it will return the money that they borrowed previously. If they dont have debt they wont be forced to borrow money in the first place. So in reality Greece wont need to borrow money so those "potential" creditors can put their finger where sun doesn't shine.

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

[patches70]

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

Hey! Its not Greece's problem now, now its the ECB, EU, IMF and Germany's problem now isn't it?

Hahahahaha!
Greece says, "So sorry, we don't have the money to pay so screw you guys, we ain't paying the debt back" and they default. What happens?

Sure, people won't want to loan Greece any money in the near future. In return Greece gets out of their debt. Does this mean people won't still come to vacation on the Greek isles? Will Greece stop making wine? Will Greece stop growing pistachios, cotton, tomatoes, figs and almonds? Will shipping stop going through Greece? I doubt it. These things have real value and the money Greece makes from said resources won't have to go to paying the back the IMF (unless the rest of Europe wants to come in and take them by force, i.e. war, Europeans killing other Europeans, will it come to that?)


All these things are real wealth as opposed to the fake and arbitrary value of the currency "lent" to Greece. Greece has everything she needs to begin true economic recovery if she could only get out from under the crippling debt upon her.

And if it does come to violence over this then I shake my head at the poor fools to fight over such a thing as fighting for the benefit of central banks and usurers. If Greece cancels her debt on her own then in a decade we'll see a well recovered Greece living a tad more modestly than she was previously and a bit wiser (hopefully).
Greece has been looted enough, time for everyone to stop beating that dead horse. Its just pointless.

[mrswdk]

It''s their fault too. Isn't that the whole point of Western democracy - all citizens play a role in running their country?

Greek people repeatedly voted for irresponsible governments and now they are paying the price for their irresponsible voting.

This is a misnomer, it is also a stawman.

The voter has zero say on a central bank's policies and balance sheet. When was the last time the American voter voted about how the Fed operates?

If Greece goes through with its referendum it will be one of the first times in living memory such a thing has happened. Central Banks operate completely divorced from from the public yet it is the central banks that are the most important element of the global economic system.

I was just jerking around to see if any of the 'hurr durr your country has no democracy' trolls would bite.

That's exactly why Greece should be required to pay its debt.

is so laughable. Greece can't pay the money back.

They should have thought of that when they borrowed the money in the first place. It's irresponsible use of credit that dug the Western world into recession in 2008 and that dug the Eurozone into a crisis shortly after. The reason that all parties involved felt free to engage in such behavior is because they (mostly correctly) felt that if it all went wrong then someone else would be there to break their fall.

Greece can go belly up for its stupid borrowing and the rest of the Eurozone can go belly up for being stupid enough to enter monetary union with an economy that it knew was shitty and unsustainable. And then, a beautiful phoenix may arise from the flames.



So I guess I am basically in agreement with most of the bit of your post that I deleted from the above quote.

[patches70]

Well, its now a pretty much done deal.

The ECB just announced that a Greek bank holiday will start on Monday. The ECB froze the ELA, so Greek banks won't get anymore money. Of course, the money showing in their deposits isn't actually in their banks so when everyone comes to get their money out of the bank there wouldn't be nearly enough physical cash to cover all the deposits (which is a true enough thing for virtually every single bank on the planet, if everyone tries to get their money out at the same time everyone will find out quickly that most of that money doesn't actually exist).

Greeks will be in the streets rioting, the ECB will never ever cancel the Greek debt, the Greek government will have no choice but to start printing Drachmas and the EU will have to figure out how to actually kick Greece out of the EU, which will be quite a feat since Greece can't be kicked out of the EU.

[GoranZ]

So? These people should be happy that their lives are getting better, not whining that their levels of wealth and comfort are not growing at the exact same pace as richer people's.

I guess you didn't watch the video I posted... Watch it then we can talk.

cba. What's the gist of it?

If you look at differences as a percentage percentage, they are increasing. Richer become more rich and poorer become more poor.

Greece should have bankrupted in 2008, since then a lot of its debt was in private investors... now it is in the hands of IMF or Europe's state hands. So in reality poor people will pay the bill for the mistakes of the rich people or corrupted governments.

How do you figure that? Public money = poor people's money?

No, you are twisting my sentences to what you see fit...
Example:
-Before 2007 Greece was borrowing money from private funds/banks meaning the percentage of poor people's money in those funds was close to 0 if not equal to 0.
-Now after two debt reconstructions majority of the Greeks debt is in the hands of IMF/European governments... that literally means that poor people invested their money to save rich peoples funds/banks.
That is the difference.

Wrong wrong wrong wrooooooong (to the tune of the Count Dracula song)

The public money being given to Greece is not 'poor people's money'. You think tax money only comes from poor people? And in any case, the IMF/EU money was being invested to stop Greece from collapsing, defaulting and making a messy exit from the Eurozone (i.e. it was to save Greece along with all the other countries tied to Greece).

Yes they are poor peoples money. Poor peoples money didn't had any part of Greek debt, but now they have part of the process of "saving" Greece. They should be refunded by rich people. All of them.

Why do you think that Greece will exit Euro zone? There is no such option. They will continue to use the Euro regardless what EU want to do.

Bottom line... Even now Greece should pay 0(nothing) from its debt. Why? Because in order for things to be changed Europe must start from 0 with proper set of rules. If Greece pays its bills nothing will change and nothing will be learned by Europe. Better to "sacrifice" small country(if you can say it sacrifice) in order to learn something while there is time then to get burned totally from bigger EU member.

That's exactly why Greece should be required to pay its debt. Let Greece go belly up as an example to everyone else of what happens if you screw around.

And as waauw points out, if Greece says that it's not going to be paying the debts it owes then it is going to find it extremely difficult to find creditors in the future. No one wants to lend money to someone who's not going to repay them.

Oh really? Are you sure that what you are saying is correct?
For example now Greece is borrowing money so it will return the money that they borrowed previously. If they dont have debt they wont be forced to borrow money in the first place. So in reality Greece wont need to borrow money so those "potential" creditors can put their finger where sun doesn't shine.

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

If Greece declare bankruptcy they wont be in such big debts... It will be the same as they didn't borrowed money, regardless if they did or not

Well, its now a pretty much done deal.

The ECB just announced that a Greek bank holiday will start on Monday. The ECB froze the ELA, so Greek banks won't get anymore money. Of course, the money showing in their deposits isn't actually in their banks so when everyone comes to get their money out of the bank there wouldn't be nearly enough physical cash to cover all the deposits (which is a true enough thing for virtually every single bank on the planet, if everyone tries to get their money out at the same time everyone will find out quickly that most of that money doesn't actually exist).

Greeks will be in the streets rioting, the ECB will never ever cancel the Greek debt, the Greek government will have no choice but to start printing Drachmas and the EU will have to figure out how to actually kick Greece out of the EU, which will be quite a feat since Greece can't be kicked out of the EU.

One correction...Greeks will riot for a month or two, but after that they will get use to it

Personally I dont expect Drachma to be returned in Greece. Its simply not profitable enough.

I expect the same thing that happen in Cyprus to happen in Greece. Almost all deposits in Greek banks will simply cease to exist.

[mrswdk]

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

Hey! Its not Greece's problem now, now its the ECB, EU, IMF and Germany's problem now isn't it?

Hahahahaha!
Greece says, "So sorry, we don't have the money to pay so screw you guys, we ain't paying the debt back" and they default. What happens?

Sure, people won't want to loan Greece any money in the near future. In return Greece gets out of their debt. Does this mean people won't still come to vacation on the Greek isles? Will Greece stop making wine? Will Greece stop growing pistachios, cotton, tomatoes, figs and almonds? Will shipping stop going through Greece? I doubt it. These things have real value and the money Greece makes from said resources won't have to go to paying the back the IMF (unless the rest of Europe wants to come in and take them by force, i.e. war, Europeans killing other Europeans, will it come to that?)

All these things are real wealth as opposed to the fake and arbitrary value of the currency "lent" to Greece. Greece has everything she needs to begin true economic recovery if she could only get out from under the crippling debt upon her.

You do know that one of the first things that happens when you default on a debt is that all your 'real wealth' gets seized as collateral, right?

[mrswdk]

Well, its now a pretty much done deal.

The ECB just announced that a Greek bank holiday will start on Monday. The ECB froze the ELA, so Greek banks won't get anymore money. Of course, the money showing in their deposits isn't actually in their banks so when everyone comes to get their money out of the bank there wouldn't be nearly enough physical cash to cover all the deposits (which is a true enough thing for virtually every single bank on the planet, if everyone tries to get their money out at the same time everyone will find out quickly that most of that money doesn't actually exist).

Greeks will be in the streets rioting, the ECB will never ever cancel the Greek debt, the Greek government will have no choice but to start printing Drachmas and the EU will have to figure out how to actually kick Greece out of the EU, which will be quite a feat since Greece can't be kicked out of the EU.

Why would they get kicked out of the EU? Do you mean the Eurozone?