It is time to vote on which American army throughout America's glorious history is the greatest American army of all. Below is summaries of why said army should be considered as the greatest army raised by the United States. The armies come from different eras, different campaigns and vary considerably, as you'll see.
There is an argument that can be made for each of these armies. Now, it is difficult to compare armies from different eras, for instance, the Continental Army compared to Patton's Third Army. This is where you, the voter, will have to try and do some thought experiments. Try to imagine the Third Army placed during the Revolution, using Revolution technology and limitations and see if you can decide if they would have been as effective as they were during their own eras.
For voting, try to leave behind biases. Try to be objective, if you can, and not simply dismiss an army because they fought for a cause you despise, but focus instead on pure prowess as a fighting force. You must consider the Commanding Officers and officer corp of each particular army, they vary quite a bit. Take into account supply, material, funding, how did the army perform with the tools they had. It is not necessarily relevant if an army lost a battle, or battles, of even if they were victorious in the end. Adversity and setbacks and how an army deals with such is a measure by which to consider greatness. Consider morale, training, tenacity, dedication to cause as well.
For this list there will be entries for the following- Revolutionary War- 1 nominee Civil War- 3 nominees WWI- 1 nominee WWII- 2 nominees Persian Gulf war- 1 nominee.
The Nominees are as follows- The Continental Army The Army of Northern Virginia The Army of the Potomac The Army of the Tennessee The American Expeditionary Force The Third Army The First Allied Airborne Army The First Infantry Division
------Sitting Bull's Army...if that isn't an American army...I don't know what is? ....Or The 7th Cavalry ...either way...They are both KOOL .... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...What is weird ...Sitting Bull used the same tactics...That Militiades and Hannibal both used in their famous battles...It is Kool that there is no way Sitting Bull could have known these men...But came up with their tactics all on his own...
I voted for Patton's Third although it was close. Sherman's army performed amazingly well, although as you point out, he was never tested against really good opposition. For that reason the crown has to go to the Third, which faced some of the best German armies and proved itself their master.
Thanks patches for a thread that is head and shoulders above what is usually found in this forum!
“Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” ― Voltaire
Dukasaur wrote:I voted for Patton's Third although it was close. Sherman's army performed amazingly well, although as you point out, he was never tested against really good opposition. For that reason the crown has to go to the Third, which faced some of the best German armies and proved itself their master.
That is well and good, Duk, the Third was an outstanding army. However, I have to point out that the Airborne army also faced the best German troops there were as well. D-Day, Market Garden, Battle of the Hedgerows for instance, all of which the Third missed.
A thought, Patton was great, but as we know he never fought defensive actions, always attacking. He also enjoyed air superiority, massive advantages in numbers of materials. Germans had better tanks for instance, but not very many of them.
Consider, the Third army under Patton dropped into 1861 in place of the Army of Northern Virginia. Patton would have done the same thing as Lee and attacked at Sharpsburg and Gettysburg and the result would have likely still been the same. Could Patton have fought the defensive war that Lee was forced to with the same limitations, same under supply, same manpower shortages (Lee never had more troops than the enemy he was facing in any given battle) and still perform as well? As great as Patton was as a commander I don't know if he'd know how to fight such a defensive war Lee found himself in. As great as the men of Third Army were, I don't know if they'd be able to weather the same tribulations as the Army of Northern VA and still be as effective. Somehow, I don't think the Third Army would have performed as well. On the converse, give Lee tanks, virtually unlimited material and supply. He'd still have to deal with the same logistical troubles Patton had to, but Lee could certainly have handled it as well as Patton. Lee was also an aggressive general, maybe not quite to the same level as Patton, but I think more than adequate enough. Lee inspired his troops just as well if not better than Patton.
I think the Army of Northern VA would have produced close to parity as the Third Army in the same circumstances. I don't think the Third Army would have performed as well as the Army of Northern VA in the CW circumstances, though. This is why I edge it out to the Army of Northern VA.
This is just my opinion, though, Patton's Third Army is definitely a good choice as the Greatest American Army in History. So Kudos to you sir! Good choice!
Thanks patches for a thread that is head and shoulders above what is usually found in this forum!
Thanks! Of course that doesn't stop people like Bern turning it into some political thang. Isn't there some sort of forum rule about deliberately going off topic in threads in a blatant attempt to derail them?
ConfederateSS wrote:------Sitting Bull's Army...if that isn't an American army...I don't know what is? ....Or The 7th Cavalry ...either way...They are both KOOL .... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...What is weird ...Sitting Bull used the same tactics...That Militiades and Hannibal both used in their famous battles...It is Kool that there is no way Sitting Bull could have known these men...But came up with their tactics all on his own...
I almost included Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, but maybe I should have titled the thread "Greatest United States Armies from History", which what I meant. Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse weren't US citizens, nor part of the United States. They were part of sovereign nations that had numerous conflicts and relationships with the United States.
The 7th Calvary was never considered. That's a regiment, not an army. The 7th is one unit of an army. I know the 7th fought in the Pacific during WWII, and also in Desert Storm, though not in the I-41. But I don't know what army they were a part of specifically. Desert Storm for instance, the 7th reconned, they didn't actually do much fighting.
The 7th did fight in Vietnam as well, and fought well from all accounts I know. I didn't include any armies from the Vietnam era because of the state of the US military during Vietnam, which wasn't good at all. The majority of the US forces in Vietnam were draftees who served one year terms. Therein is the problem. Those troops aren't fighting for the same reasons the other armies on this list fought for. The draftees only fought to make it to the end of their tour and go the hell home. They didn't care about winning the war. This of course makes it hard to compare to the heavy weights in my list. Men from the Third Army were drafted as well, but not for one year terms. They were drafted and fought until they died, got too badly wounded to fight or until the end of the war. This motivates a man to fight and fight hard because winning was the only way out other than in a body bag.
The combat forces in the First Persian Gulf war were professional soldiers. They were there, by their own free will, to fight until victory was achieved. Head and shoulders over any draftee from the Vietnam era, not that the soldier's from the Vietnam era should be disparaged at all. So don't think I'm dissing on them in any way, I'm just observing differences in circumstances and those circumstances are enough to preclude them from a list of Greatest Armies in American History. They were great, it's only that they fought and died for nothing, nothing at all. This isn't the soldier's fault, the politicians who threw our men into such a debacle are the one's who should be hung from Lamp posts. IMO
Now if you'd like to nominate and army, do so! State the army, the era and describe why you think it should be considered as the greatest American Army in History. The poll should have an option to change your vote, convince me if you wish or can.
patches70 wrote: Isn't there some sort of forum rule about deliberately going off topic in threads in a blatant attempt to derail them?
In the working fora (Clans, Tournaments, Foundry, etc.) the various departments follow their own rules, which are sometimes quite strict. In General and Off-Topics, however, it's been a long time since we attempted that kind of strict moderating. Basically it's close to anarchy here, with some (pretty loose) limits. In an extreme case, if someone was deliberately spamming a thread to prevent discussion, we would still act, but a little bit of irrelevant nonsense is ignored. Best thing to do is use the foe button liberally, and you can skip over posts from people whom you know to be unproductive contributors.
patches70 wrote:Now if you'd like to nominate and army, do so! State the army, the era and describe why you think it should be considered as the greatest American Army in History. The poll should have an option to change your vote, convince me if you wish or can.
Just as a point of information: if you add new options to a poll, it resets and you lose accumulated data. Sometimes it's worth it, but I thought I should let you know in case you didn't.
“Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” ― Voltaire
--------Ironic thing....in Vietnam,the 7th cavalry was surrounded again...there was a man leading people out from the Vietnam 7th on 911 trade center,he was a security guard,I think he was another guy,than the one in the red bandana...Sitting Bull's army...was on North American soil...so he counts... ------Patton's grandfather fought in Lee's army...in fact ,he was Lee's aide,gopher ,messenger...George S. Patton...wouldn't of let himself get caught up in at Gettysburg...He would of stuck to his original plan...Passed by the famed spot... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
Based on my very limited knowledge of History, I have to say that the two best candidates for the Greatest American armies from history are the ones in current discussion:
Patton's 3rd Army (which suffered no losses, at least no major losses), and
Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. Lee had to battle huge odds (numbers) and big supply problems and kept the South alive as an entity against all those obstacles.
Each fought different types of war and had very different circumstances. Both had great leaders and brave soldiers.
One thing that is often overlooked is that Lee's troops viewed their war as a war to protect their home from Northern invaders. Most of the troops did not own slaves and did not fight for slavery; this is the picture NOW painted by those who want to revise history, that the RACIST Southerners fought ONLY for slavery.
Much of the war was fought where I live, in Virginia, near and around Richmond. I can drive 100 miles from my house and find MANY battlefields of that War (and the American Revolution, too.)
The bravery, leadership, and superior tactics to keep the Union Armies out of Richmond, the Confederate capital, is admired by those who study war.
jusplay4fun wrote:Based on my very limited knowledge of History, I have to say that the two best candidates for the Greatest American armies from history are the ones in current discussion:
Patton's 3rd Army (which suffered no losses, at least no major losses), and
Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. Lee had to battle huge odds (numbers) and big supply problems and kept the South alive as an entity against all those obstacles.
Each fought different types of war and had very different circumstances. Both had great leaders and brave soldiers.
One thing that is often overlooked is that Lee's troops viewed their war as a war to protect their home from Northern invaders. Most of the troops did not own slaves and did not fight for slavery; this is the picture NOW painted by those who want to revise history, that the RACIST Southerners fought ONLY for slavery.
Much of the war was fought where I live, in Virginia, near and around Richmond. I can drive 100 miles from my house and find MANY battlefields of that War (and the American Revolution, too.)
The bravery, leadership, and superior tactics to keep the Union Armies out of Richmond, the Confederate capital, is admired by those who study war.
JP
I agree my illegitimate son, your very limited knowledge in history is quite visible.
AMERICAN BLACK SOLDIERS WOULD FACE ALMOST CERTAIN DEATH IF THEY SURRENDERED!
The Southern Aristocracy should have been hanged for treason and leading uneducated crackers to fight for the rich landowners who profited from the enslavement of blacks.
jusplay4fun wrote:Based on my very limited knowledge of History, I have to say that the two best candidates for the Greatest American armies from history are the ones in current discussion:
Patton's 3rd Army (which suffered no losses, at least no major losses), and
Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. Lee had to battle huge odds (numbers) and big supply problems and kept the South alive as an entity against all those obstacles.
Each fought different types of war and had very different circumstances. Both had great leaders and brave soldiers.
One thing that is often overlooked is that Lee's troops viewed their war as a war to protect their home from Northern invaders. Most of the troops did not own slaves and did not fight for slavery; this is the picture NOW painted by those who want to revise history, that the RACIST Southerners fought ONLY for slavery.
Much of the war was fought where I live, in Virginia, near and around Richmond. I can drive 100 miles from my house and find MANY battlefields of that War (and the American Revolution, too.)
The bravery, leadership, and superior tactics to keep the Union Armies out of Richmond, the Confederate capital, is admired by those who study war.
JP
-----Yes I agree,JP......Bernie and rest are idiots....All Confederate Generals outnumbered and out gunned...Would whip The North to a stand still time and Time ...again and again. As Lee's army was made to fight a trench style war. The armies out west...Fought a GREAT MOBILE WAR of DEFENSE...In the beginning before Lee...The South's best General was "Albert"(he went by his middle name) Sidney Johnston,no relation to Joe Johnston who never suffered a real official defeat during the War Between the States...Anyway Sidney Johnston died a hero's death. As when wounded...Sent his doctor to go and treat Union wounded prisoners at Shiloh...He died from loss of blood...Not too many or any selfish people today with out Honor. Would put the enemy before their own lives...YES, NOT EVEN THE LEFTISTS WHO WISH TO TEAR DOWN HISTORY, OF SUCH GREAT MEN...IT IS EASY TO YAP...WHEN YOU KNOW YOU WILL NEVER GIVE YOUR LIFE...NOT EVEN FOR SOMEONE ON THE OTHER SIDE...CRY LIKE LITTLE BABIES...IF YOU DON'T GET YOUR OWN WAY...IGNORE TRUE FEATS OF GREATNESS BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES...AS YOU REWRITE HISTORY IN YOUR OWN MISS GUIDED IMAGE... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
ConfederateSS wrote:-----Yes I agree,JP......Bernie and rest are idiots....All Confederate Generals outnumbered and out gunned...Would whip The North to a stand still time and Time ...again and again. As Lee's army was made to fight a trench style war. The armies out west...Fought a GREAT MOBILE WAR of DEFENSE...In the beginning before Lee...The South's best General was "Albert"(he went by his middle name) Sidney Johnston,no relation to Joe Johnston who never suffered a real official defeat during the War Between the States...Anyway Sidney Johnston died a hero's death. As when wounded...Sent his doctor to go and treat Union wounded prisoners at Shiloh...He died from loss of blood...Not too many or any selfish people today with out Honor. Would put the enemy before their own lives...YES, NOT EVEN THE LEFTISTS WHO WISH TO TEAR DOWN HISTORY, OF SUCH GREAT MEN...IT IS EASY TO YAP...WHEN YOU KNOW YOU WILL NEVER GIVE YOUR LIFE...NOT EVEN FOR SOMEONE ON THE OTHER SIDE...CRY LIKE LITTLE BABIES...IF YOU DON'T GET YOUR OWN WAY...IGNORE TRUE FEATS OF GREATNESS BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES...AS YOU REWRITE HISTORY IN YOUR OWN MISS GUIDED IMAGE... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
Haha it's really something. Over 150 years have passed since the yanks spanked the everloving christ out of the csa and there are still armchair-general nerds corncobbing over it.
We're gonna keep tearing down the cheap, hollow bronze of redneck revisionism and there's not a thing you whimpering neckbeards can do about it. The south ain't rising again, bros. Y'all lost.
warmonger1981 wrote:I doubt that you're a fan. But just to humor you. I'll empty a clip in your face.
I mean, they're fine. The crew have got a few bangers. I was actually turned onto them on this damn forum a decade or so ago, so I'm not sure why you're doubting my cred. It's not like they're a shallow cut.
ConfederateSS wrote:-----Yes I agree,JP......Bernie and rest are idiots....All Confederate Generals outnumbered and out gunned...Would whip The North to a stand still time and Time ...again and again. As Lee's army was made to fight a trench style war. The armies out west...Fought a GREAT MOBILE WAR of DEFENSE...In the beginning before Lee...The South's best General was "Albert"(he went by his middle name) Sidney Johnston,no relation to Joe Johnston who never suffered a real official defeat during the War Between the States...Anyway Sidney Johnston died a hero's death. As when wounded...Sent his doctor to go and treat Union wounded prisoners at Shiloh...He died from loss of blood...Not too many or any selfish people today with out Honor. Would put the enemy before their own lives...YES, NOT EVEN THE LEFTISTS WHO WISH TO TEAR DOWN HISTORY, OF SUCH GREAT MEN...IT IS EASY TO YAP...WHEN YOU KNOW YOU WILL NEVER GIVE YOUR LIFE...NOT EVEN FOR SOMEONE ON THE OTHER SIDE...CRY LIKE LITTLE BABIES...IF YOU DON'T GET YOUR OWN WAY...IGNORE TRUE FEATS OF GREATNESS BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES...AS YOU REWRITE HISTORY IN YOUR OWN MISS GUIDED IMAGE... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
Haha it's really something. Over 150 years have passed since the yanks spanked the everloving christ out of the csa and there are still armchair-general nerds corncobbing over it.
We're gonna keep tearing down the cheap, hollow bronze of redneck revisionism and there's not a thing you whimpering neckbeards can do about it. The south ain't rising again, bros. Y'all lost.
warmonger1981 wrote:I doubt that you're a fan. But just to humor you. I'll empty a clip in your face.
I mean, they're fine. The crew have got a few bangers. I was actually turned onto them on this damn forum a decade or so ago, so I'm not sure why you're doubting my cred. It's not like they're a shallow cut.
In list of 36 “Events That Changed History” a historian did list “General Pickett Leads A Charge (1863) as one of his 36 events. The ONLY WWII event listed was dropping the A-Bomb (1945).
The first 4 events are in Asia and 3 of the first 4 deal with religious matters (Moses, Buddha, and Confucius).
BTW: The only naval battle listed by the historian was the Defeat of the Spanish Armada (1588).
Using fake bunnie's own source, he proves that MOST Southern soldiers did NOT own slaves. He proves my point. Thank you fake burnie who WISHES he had me as a son.
There have been many different ways to estimate the amount of slaveholding in the south. One estimate is that in 1860, about 25% of households and 5% of the population (384,000 people) in the South owned at least one slave. An alternative estimate is that 36% of men lived in slaveholding families, and the percentage of men who had economic ties to slavery was much higher. In the Confederate Army, about 10% of the enlisted men and about 50% of the officers were slaveholders.[1] Virginia was the largest slave state, in white population, in black population, and in contribution to the Confederate Army. Richmond, Virginia was the Confederate capital and was a major industrial and commercial center. Virginia was also an engine of the domestic slave trade. Virginia plantations were smaller than average and there were more slaveholders per capita in Virginia than in the rest of the Confederacy.[2] Large numbers of slaves lived in the states along the border between the Union and Confederacy. Approximately 500,000 slaves lived in Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland; border slave states, which did not join the Confederacy.[3]
Most of the South's slaves were owned by planters (often defined as those who owned twenty of more slaves), although yeomen farmers outnumbered planters which numbered fewer than 50,000. Southern agriculture was more lucrative than northern, focusing on crops of rice, cotton, and sugar.[4] Even before the war, in the rice regions of Georgia and South Carolina and in parts of the Mississippi Delta there were ten or even twenty slaves for every white person. During the war, this disparity grew, leading to fear of insurrection and calls for militia companies to be stationed in agricultural regions to guarantee peace.[5]
JP
Bernie Sanders wrote:
jusplay4fun wrote:Based on my very limited knowledge of History, I have to say that the two best candidates for the Greatest American armies from history are the ones in current discussion:
Patton's 3rd Army (which suffered no losses, at least no major losses), and
Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. Lee had to battle huge odds (numbers) and big supply problems and kept the South alive as an entity against all those obstacles.
Each fought different types of war and had very different circumstances. Both had great leaders and brave soldiers.
One thing that is often overlooked is that Lee's troops viewed their war as a war to protect their home from Northern invaders. Most of the troops did not own slaves and did not fight for slavery; this is the picture NOW painted by those who want to revise history, that the RACIST Southerners fought ONLY for slavery.
Much of the war was fought where I live, in Virginia, near and around Richmond. I can drive 100 miles from my house and find MANY battlefields of that War (and the American Revolution, too.)
The bravery, leadership, and superior tactics to keep the Union Armies out of Richmond, the Confederate capital, is admired by those who study war.
JP
I agree my illegitimate son, your very limited knowledge in history is quite visible.
AMERICAN BLACK SOLDIERS WOULD FACE ALMOST CERTAIN DEATH IF THEY SURRENDERED!
The Southern Aristocracy should have been hanged for treason and leading uneducated crackers to fight for the rich landowners who profited from the enslavement of blacks.
i think i recall reading somewhere that the "average(?)" price of a slave back in those days was around $800usd & the average wage of a confederate soldier was about $11usd/month - so yeah, pretty sure they all weren't slave owners.