INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Sirius Kase]

Now you're claiming that you've been poisoned despite the professed poisoner being dead (actually the most believable part of all this considering JFM's wacky day 2 behavior) but it's possibly passive and you can't confirm who it is because you think you've been redirected.

Yes, I am claiming that. Why would I be stupid enough to falsely claim being poisoned after what happened with jfm? It's a stupid thing to risk claiming without being prompted if it's not the truth.

That's your perfect defense. You would never be that stupid. I agree, you aren't that stupid.

[ZaBeast]

I mis-directed Metsfanmax, if you will recall, on N1. He confirmed on D2. I did not mis-direct Blacky at any time. I did mis-direct someone else last night, but did not get a response from the mod that I was successful (see my post at the beginning of D3). Last night, I got bumped, but continued on to my target/prey with no result.

I am not a bus driver, or a water taxi driver, but I last night I could mis-direct someone's action. According to the mod, my abilities will be different on N2, but that's neither here nor there. My role is a TOWN role.

What's up with that?

I don't like how dakky seems to try to deter people from targetting him, after he has claimed for no good reason on D1. He said he's been notified that someone targetted him, is someone willing to go on the record saying he has targetted dakky and it didn't work? That might help prove he's not just scum trying to avoid being targetted.

SW, did you get notified your healing succeeded? I ask because you were notified N1 that your protection worked.
Also no NKs first 2 nights; wonder why skoff thinks there is a SK. Doesn't seem very likely so far. And what is cbf?

But for today I don't want dakky alive any longer.
For one I don't think he's town. He's interpretting certain phrases that are clearly not alignment indicative as scummy in a very noobish way. Like all the 'scumtells' he's quoted are what a new player thinks a scumtell looks like but dakky is definitely not a new player. He was one of the jfm rolefishers day1.
And two no way we keep a person with a claim that powerful alive on lylo. And if we do end up lynching him on policy, we better do it while we can still afford mislynches.

I am pretty sure only tobi, blacky, pershy and Sirius voted jfm with the reasonning that they wanted a claim. Dakky had been on him early on, starting because he voted "blurp blurp"

Jmf was a vig not a poisoner, right?

His role says vig, but he claimed to have poisoned blacky

Anyone else sick of hearing about these damn healers?

Maybe SW can cure you from that too

If you read the part where I said that, surely you read the very next sentence where I stated my reasoning:

In this particular game, I see no evidence for the claim that scum are more likely to have a poisoner than town. In fact I think it's the opposite; scum have a night kill, it's OP if they also have a poisoner. Note also that town had a wiretapper which does not seem like a typical town role.

That's a shitty reasonning though. You could use the "scum have a NK so they can't have a poisoner" reasoning in every game, and yet poisoner is more often scum than town. The fact is, we haven't seen a NK yet, so there are other options, such as scum's NK being replaced by a poisoning for instance (I personnally don't think that's the case, because it would allow the targetted player to claim his ations before dying, but it is a possibility). Add that to the fact that we don't know how many protective roles town has so it is very possible it makes sense balance-wise for scum to have extra firepower and your reasonning is wobbly at best.

[chapcrap]

Definitely on Skoffin's side for this. The way he played that was... odd.

I doubt anyone will defend the way he played. But I recognized a wagon that was primarily based not on "this person's actions are evidence that he is scum," but rather based on "I don't like this person's actions," and I chose not to join that. aage's point sums it up perfectly: he voted for jfm because he was being an asshole, not because he was scumhunting. That seems to have been true for most of you too. I'm noting who is choosing not to own up to that, and who is actively defending that decision. And I'm especially noting the people who somehow think that those of us who weren't stupid enough to join a shitty wagon are scummy.

Nope. That's what was being said by aage and that's not why my vote was on him. I know you're style of posting is to twist people's words, but you have to stop. No one said that they voted him because he was annoying. He played scummily and after the whole truth came out, it was revealed he played poorly.

Yeah that feels like mets preemptively defending himself for the heat that should go towards him.

Yep.

Lynchers D1: BuJ, skoffin, ZaBeast, dakky, chap, Sirius, Ragian, strike, Mets, Tobi
Lynchers D2: ZaBeast, Chap, dakky, skoffin, BuJ, Sirius, aage, blacky, strike

BuJ, ZaBeast, Chap, Skoffin, Dakky, Sirius, and Strike have lynched both days.
Pika and TX haven't lynched.

I'll ponder those pieces of information for a while...

Tobi's vote was after the lynch happened D1. Not sure that means anything or not. Just a clarification...

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

Oh, you mean the person that blacky teased information on, but would never give even after being asked about it multiple times? Didn't even respond to me...

[chapcrap]

Do we really think we should believe jfm's poisoning claim? He could be town assassin without being the poisoner...

If we do believe, then Mets is lying, right?

If we don't believe him, then Mets is telling the truth or lying for what reason? He could be trying to gain sw's alleged healing power. If we keep going with not believe jfm, it almost seems more possible to me that Mets, blacky, and sw are all working together to get town to believe that two are town. The only issue I have with thinking this is that no one else is really claiming a healing role except sw. Who is supposed to have knowledge of a healer now? Ragian, jfm, sw, Mets, blacky, Tobi? That's too many people from different sides. So, the healer has to be real. With no one else, it has to be sw for now.

I'm just trying to wrap my head about the poison thing. jfm claimed it. But it's happening with him gone? Doesn't seem like that's legit

[Metsfanmax]

Nope. That's what was being said by aage and that's not why my vote was on him. I know you're style of posting is to twist people's words, but you have to stop. No one said that they voted him because he was annoying.

aage said on D2:

Honestly even if this guy does turn out to be town I won't feel sorry, he's so full of shit.

Which makes one question whether aage was really looking at the issue dispassionately. You said, prior to the lynch:

Umm, I voted... Stand by it. A third claim? A town assassin? Ugh. Get real.

And previously you said:

I guess not fully claiming initially makes sense, but the short posts, unresponsiveness, lack of clarification, etc since strike wolf counterclaimed leaves me more than suspicious. I'm keeping my vote there.

BuJaber said:

Whatever let's lynch this and get back to playing mafia. I'm done arguing about him.

So then when you say:

He played scummily and after the whole truth came out, it was revealed he played poorly.

I respond that no, he didn't play "scummily." He did play poorly and erratically, but once you accept that someone plays erratically, trying to scum-read the lies and the erratic behavior is a fool's errand and most of you experienced players should have known better, especially by the end of D2. Your original vote for him, way back earlier in the day after strike counter-claimed him, was fine. The fact that you kept your vote on him even after he claimed town assassin, that's what looks bad. I know that no one other than BuJaber said that they were voting for jfm because he was being annoying. I'm accusing most of you having actually done that, even though you didn't explicitly admit to it.

Oh, you mean the person that blacky teased information on, but would never give even after being asked about it multiple times? Didn't even respond to me...

I have no idea if blacky and I visited the same person, because I have no idea who I actually visited last night.

[Sirius Kase]

Do we really think we should believe jfm's poisoning claim? He could be town assassin without being the poisoner...

<snip>

I'm just trying to wrap my head about the poison thing. jfm claimed it. But it's happening with him gone? Doesn't seem like that's legit

Perhaps, it's a slow acting or delayed poison. jfm could have attacked before he was lynched.

[chapcrap]

Mets, jfm's behavior changed D1 to D2. Like he was coached. He went from being verbose to standoffish. It was all scummy. The changing of town claims multiple times. Don't try to act like it wasn't scummy. It was.

I didn't find him annoying except for his ignoring and not answering people. But that wasn't why I voted him. The annoying thing came when the truth was revealed and you see how bad the actions were as a townie. That's how I read aage's posts too.

So, I find this post by you trying to change what people are saying again.

Also, BuJaber claimed to have a post restriction on D2 until there were multiple votes on someone. I am going to vote Mets in case someone else had a post restriction today.

Fp'd by SK

[Metsfanmax]

Don't try to act like it wasn't scummy. It was.

It's remarkable how willing you are to defend this point even after you have been shown to be completely wrong about this.

[chapcrap]

Don't try to act like it wasn't scummy. It was.

It's remarkable how willing you are to defend this point even after you have been shown to be completely wrong about this.

You're living in a different world.

[Metsfanmax]

Don't try to act like it wasn't scummy. It was.

It's remarkable how willing you are to defend this point even after you have been shown to be completely wrong about this.

You're living in a different world.

I'm living in the world where jfm flipped town.

[ZaBeast]

@mets, apart an investigative PR claiming he had incriminating evidence against jfm, what could have given you a scummy read on ifm then?

[TX AG 90]

Back for a quick post before I go back to poker.

I don't believe jfm ever claimed directly to have poisoned Blacky; I think we just circumstantially connected those dots based on what he said. If I'm misremembering and he actually directly said he poisoned Blacky it makes a big difference in how we put the pieces together.

Also, people are asking how jfm knew there was a healer. He claimed (though he may be full of crap) that he was told he would get credits if he poisoned a townie and the townie was healed. I don't know how this fits into the role of a Town Vigilante, but this scenario has been crazy since get go.

Another wrong conclusion people are making is that Dacky was targeted N1. He was drunk when he was posting and he was basically saying "if you came at me, you couldn't find me". He just worded it poorly. He admitted it later.

And does focusing on the bubbles help us find scum? And isn't the easiest answer that it is a damn seal? A seal would make for a good SK flavor. It would be indiscriminate in what it's target was, scum or town.

Also, at some point during D2, I had suspicions that blacky never was poisoned and he was working with SW to convince us they were town. I no longer believe this, but have not closed off the possibility. If anybody has anything to add to this, it wouldn't hurt to discuss it. That being said, if they are scum, they are doing a masterful job of convincing us otherwise.

Again, since I am a virgin mafia player, I am having trouble scum hunting via voting record. I can only look for discrepancies in everyone's posts and try to shed light on things so you veterans can zero in on the scum.

And for those putting me into the "suspicion of being scum" bucket, I haven't addressed this because it's impossible for you to have a valid reason (since I'm town) and I don't want to tie up our time and resources going down a dead end street. Help me help you find and lynch SCUM!

[Metsfanmax]

Back for a quick post before I go back to poker.

I don't believe jfm ever claimed directly to have poisoned Blacky; I think we just circumstantially connected those dots based on what he said. If I'm misremembering and he actually directly said he poisoned Blacky it makes a big difference in how we put the pieces together.

jfm didn't explicitly claim that he poisoned blacky, but it's hard to make sense of his comment about getting town credits for blacky being healed if he didn't do it.

[BuJaber]

Mets isn't totally wrong about my jfm vote but to be more accurate I gave in and voted jfm when I still thought he were town because too many people were suspicious of him and distracted that town was unable to function cooperatively. His mere presence was anti-town.

After my vote he kept added lie after lie so I was pretty happy with keeping the vote there.

Not gonna lie though I'm glad my interpretation of day 1 gamestate was accurate.

@ZB - maybe he voted earlier but he was one of the most vocal about pushing jfm and getting more votes on him and pressuring him to fullclaim.

Can I get some idea of who wants to lynch dakky and who doesn't?.
Also anybody thinks mets isn't scum?

FP - yeah he implied he targetted blacky heavily but who knows with jfm.

[BuJaber]

ZaBeast caught Tobiman red-handed?

[TX AG 90]

Question for you vets:

At this time of the game, are scum usually working in concert or are they trying to divide and conquer individually at first?

In other words, should I be looking for patterns of people working similar angles and supporting each other beyond reason of doubt? Us townies can defend each other based on what we read, but we don't really know if the person we are defending is town or scum.

[strike wolf]

Yeah. Tobi's statements today don't seem to line up with what he was saying yesterday. Strong FOS Tobi

The idea that scum probably doesn't have two killing roles is as others say, weak. Even before I claimed on day 2, we had multiple roles either claiming a protective role (JFM), a self-protective role (Dakky) or hinting at the idea they might have one (Skoffin). The idea of multiple killing roles to balance out the protections seems very likely.

I don't disagree with Mets that the initial JFM case on day 1 was bad and probably should have never happened but he changed his claim twice. Yeah, he's a new player and was acting erratically but lying about your role is still more likely to be a scum move than a town move. His actions spoke of someone with something to hide. The fact that Mets is still denying any scumminess (News flash: You can act scummy and still turn up town) on JFM's part is ridiculous.

@Zabeast: the message was a bit different this time. It did confirm that the action was successful but also suggested something else may have happened. The wording was a bit unclear and I'd rather not go into details about it at the moment in case it becomes important later or I at least until I have a better idea of what happened.

@TX: Really depends on who's mafia. Newbish mafia tend to react to other mafia and follow toe to toe. Veteran mafia tend to keep more distance between them and other mafia but even still every player has quirks. Some mafia will even throw one or each other under the bus and when one is lynched, the other gains town cred. Late game, you're usually a bit more likely to see Mafia make a full on push together than at the beginning.

[Metsfanmax]

The idea that scum probably doesn't have two killing roles is as others say, weak. Even before I claimed on day 2, we had multiple roles either claiming a protective role (JFM), a self-protective role (Dakky) or hinting at the idea they might have one (Skoffin). The idea of multiple killing roles to balance out the protections seems very likely.

That statement of mine was made very early on D2. Most of the information you're referring to came after that.

I don't disagree with Mets that the initial JFM case on day 1 was bad and probably should have never happened but he changed his claim twice. Yeah, he's a new player and was acting erratically but lying about your role is still more likely to be a scum move than a town move. His actions spoke of someone with something to hide. The fact that Mets is still denying any scumminess (News flash: You can act scummy and still turn up town) on JFM's part is ridiculous.

It's just wrong to equate lying with being scum in general. It's usually true that the people with the strongest incentive to lie, when playing correctly and fully rationally, are scum. That doesn't make it true that the people who actually lie, in real game conditions, are scum. If you admit that he is a new player and acting erratically, then talking about what experienced, non-erratic players usually do is simply a non sequitur. Again, I'll point out that you have played with mitch before. The fact that you are still refusing to own up to mislynching is ridiculous.

[Ragian]

ZaBeast caught Tobiman red-handed?

Defo something that needs to be cleared up.

@Tobi?

[Tobikera]

ZaBeast caught Tobiman red-handed?

Caught me red-handed at what? You're #2 on my scum list BuJaber.

[Tobikera]

[quote="strike wolf"]Yeah. Tobi's statements today don't seem to line up with what he was saying yesterday. Strong FOS Tobi/quote]

What doesn't line up? Both of you are flippantly making statements with nothing to back it up. To me, that's pretty scummy. I've been consistent all the way through.

The player who's place you took, SW, was under suspicion on D1. You taking his place doesn't give you a pass. You're No. 3 on my scum list.
1. Metsfanmax
2. BuJaber
3. Strike Wolf

Let's see how that works out at the end of the game.

[ZaBeast]

I mis-directed Metsfanmax, if you will recall, on N1. He confirmed on D2. I did not mis-direct Blacky at any time. I did mis-direct someone else last night, but did not get a response from the mod that I was successful (see my post at the beginning of D3). Last night, I got bumped, but continued on to my target/prey with no result.

I am not a bus driver, or a water taxi driver, but I last night I could mis-direct someone's action. According to the mod, my abilities will be different on N2, but that's neither here nor there. My role is a TOWN role.

What's up with that?

I put it at the beginning of my post to decrease the chances of it being missed. Skimming much?

[ZaBeast]

Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on SW's counter-claim since you put him this high on your scummy list

[strike wolf]

As Buj mentioned and ZaBeast just rehashed. It was right in Zabeasts post earlier today. Did you skim it or intentionally ignore it? You never really responded to my reasons yesterday either.

If you really want context though. Let's go into why the person I replaced was suspected. He was inactive. He ended up being inactive enough to need replacement. I've missed a day or two here and there but I have generally been active. So that doesn't really hold up. I believe his posts lacking substance was also mentioned but That's pretty much just a side effect of being inactive. So basically you're bringing in a case made because a player was inactive to try to remind people that my predecessor was briefly found suspicious. Weak.

Now you the claimed one time redirector with a limited copy ability night 2 states that you redirected someone again. Please explain to me how you weren't lying.

unvote Vote Tobi

[Tobikera]

OK! OK! Now I see what you guys are harping about. Remember that I revealed my persona and my role on D2, in the hopes of catching a scum. At that point, my misdirection (action) was only matched by one reaction, namely Blacky being poisoned. I was looking at Metsfanmax as being the poisoner. That could or could not be true, given more recent events and declarations. So, as the town mis-director, I was feeling a little bit exposed, and suggested I might be the scum's N2 target. So, I gave a different slant to my role for N2 in the hopes of being passed over (again). On N1, my talent was to mis-direct a player of my choice. I chose Metsfanmax, stated as much, and he confirmed on D2 that he had indeed been misdirected. Because I was successful on N1, the mod allowed me to mis-direct three players on N2. So, I didn't lie, my role was different in the sense it was expanded. What I did not know then was that you had to be lucky and get your favorite prey before you could claim three misdirections during N2. I missed that in my reading of the aftermath of N1. So, here we are in N2, and I'm thinking...no way I'm going to go after a prey with only a 30% chance of being lucky. So, I opted to select just one player to misdirect...my standard role. As mentioned previously, I got no result in N2, but I did get bumped, whatever that means (someone went after prey, I was randomly selected, but did not fit their diet??). So, I did have "the possibility" of a different action in N2 in terms of quantity, but not quality. I'm stuck misdirecting. If I misdirect a scum, it could hurt town or scum. If I misdirect a town player, probably no one gets hurt. Last night I misdirected BuJaber. I can't remember, has he said anything about that?

Pershy and jfm aside, I am the only player with a stated action that was verified. I've revealed everything about me except my favorite food. Almost every mafia game I've played, I'd be the golden townie by now, and the only ones coming after me would be scum. If the shoe fits....