Re: [CL14] Clan League - Sign Ups End Sept 25th

[Nut Shot Scott]

This seems like a good plan to people?

[groovysmurf]

This seems like a good plan to people?

The changes happening here were all voted on in the CAT forum.

In regards to having three divisions, 10 out of the 14 clans who submitted votes chose this option.

What specifically is it about the format that you don't like/disagree with?

[Nut Shot Scott]

Do you really think anyone currently in PD does not want to be in PD? S&M wants to play in second division? How about REP? The current top 5 teams want to be in a 5 team only division? I doubt all of this. None of this is explained well in the forum vote you guys keep citing. The lower clans have zero interest in being in PD and getting their asses kicked. This makes sense but it should have no bearing on what happens other than not letting dbd play there.

I know AWOL has zero interest in this format. You kill the competitive vibe because you simply do not have enough teams to format it this way.

As for what I disagree with - pretty much the entire thing. It doesn't make any competitive sense. Go back, coherently restate the entire thing and redo the vote. If it turns out the same, I would be shocked. It should really be two divisions - competitive and recreational. You can still format it the same with the same play ins but you give teams the option if they qualify. You dont have 25 teams competing - you have maybe 15. So let the 7 or 8 teams who are competitive, compete. Let the others play recreationally and enjoy themselves. Forcing teams who want to be competitive into some meangingless middle division with a few competitive teams and whoever else is moving backwards, not forwards.

If I'm wrong and everyone wants to play in these tiny divisions then fine. But I highly doubt that the clans who are working to compete prefer this format.

[groovysmurf]

Do you really think anyone currently in PD does not want to be in PD? S&M wants to play in second division? How about REP? The current top 5 teams want to be in a 5 team only division? I doubt all of this. None of this is explained well in the forum vote you guys keep citing. The lower clans have zero interest in being in PD and getting their asses kicked. This makes sense but it should have no bearing on what happens other than not letting dbd play there.

I know AWOL has zero interest in this format. You kill the competitive vibe because you simply do not have enough teams to format it this way.

As for what I disagree with - pretty much the entire thing. It doesn't make any competitive sense. Go back, coherently restate the entire thing and redo the vote. If it turns out the same, I would be shocked. It should really be two divisions - competitive and recreational. You can still format it the same with the same play ins but you give teams the option if they qualify. You dont have 25 teams competing - you have maybe 15. So let the 7 or 8 teams who are competitive, compete. Let the others play recreationally and enjoy themselves. Forcing teams who want to be competitive into some meangingless middle division with a few competitive teams and whoever else is moving backwards, not forwards.

If I'm wrong and everyone wants to play in these tiny divisions then fine. But I highly doubt that the clans who are working to compete prefer this format.

I understand what you're saying, but you yourself were a CD and are intelligent enough to understand that decisions like this do not just come from nowhere. This is something that has been discussed since CL11. There was plenty of time to bring up AWOL's issues with this new format. You had more than a year since the last poll closed and not a word. Waiting until sign-ups open isn't a suitable time to share your dissension with any expectation for immediate change.

If 14 or less clans sign up, there will still only be 2 divisions. These changes aren't being done because 1 or 2 people wanted them, they are being done because the clan community voted for them. You are free to open a new poll/discussion and if the community agrees, additional changes (or reversions) can be made for future editions of this event.

I am speaking for myself here, and not the clan department, just to be clear.

[MTIceman41]

Do you really think anyone currently in PD does not want to be in PD? S&M wants to play in second division? How about REP? The current top 5 teams want to be in a 5 team only division? I doubt all of this. None of this is explained well in the forum vote you guys keep citing. The lower clans have zero interest in being in PD and getting their asses kicked. This makes sense but it should have no bearing on what happens other than not letting dbd play there.

I know AWOL has zero interest in this format. You kill the competitive vibe because you simply do not have enough teams to format it this way.

As for what I disagree with - pretty much the entire thing. It doesn't make any competitive sense. Go back, coherently restate the entire thing and redo the vote. If it turns out the same, I would be shocked. It should really be two divisions - competitive and recreational. You can still format it the same with the same play ins but you give teams the option if they qualify. You dont have 25 teams competing - you have maybe 15. So let the 7 or 8 teams who are competitive, compete. Let the others play recreationally and enjoy themselves. Forcing teams who want to be competitive into some meangingless middle division with a few competitive teams and whoever else is moving backwards, not forwards.

If I'm wrong and everyone wants to play in these tiny divisions then fine. But I highly doubt that the clans who are working to compete prefer this format.

2 divisions make since being “part of” S&M and now LIONS
I would agree with Scott and things are much cleaner with a premier division of
Ascension
Fall
Tofu
S&M
LHDD
ATL
REP
Awol? Not sure next best

Then secondary division probably:
Low
GON
Foed
Afos
Lions
Whomever left.
KIIS always

[Caymanmew]

Do you really think anyone currently in PD does not want to be in PD? S&M wants to play in second division? How about REP? The current top 5 teams want to be in a 5 team only division? I doubt all of this. None of this is explained well in the forum vote you guys keep citing. The lower clans have zero interest in being in PD and getting their asses kicked. This makes sense but it should have no bearing on what happens other than not letting dbd play there.

I know AWOL has zero interest in this format. You kill the competitive vibe because you simply do not have enough teams to format it this way.

As for what I disagree with - pretty much the entire thing. It doesn't make any competitive sense. Go back, coherently restate the entire thing and redo the vote. If it turns out the same, I would be shocked. It should really be two divisions - competitive and recreational. You can still format it the same with the same play ins but you give teams the option if they qualify. You dont have 25 teams competing - you have maybe 15. So let the 7 or 8 teams who are competitive, compete. Let the others play recreationally and enjoy themselves. Forcing teams who want to be competitive into some meangingless middle division with a few competitive teams and whoever else is moving backwards, not forwards.

If I'm wrong and everyone wants to play in these tiny divisions then fine. But I highly doubt that the clans who are working to compete prefer this format.

This was heavily discussed in the CAT and Caff was a big part of that discussion. If I recall correctly he was in favor of the system as long as it started with CL14, not CL13, which is what was eventually decided as his points on it not being fair to change promotion rules during CL12 for CL13 was correct.

If you had a problem with this you should have communicated this more clearly to your clan rep while discussions were happening.

[MTIceman41]

Or we just have a moment of clarity and adjust things for a quick vote lol

[iAmCaffeine]

Do you really think anyone currently in PD does not want to be in PD? S&M wants to play in second division? How about REP? The current top 5 teams want to be in a 5 team only division? I doubt all of this. None of this is explained well in the forum vote you guys keep citing. The lower clans have zero interest in being in PD and getting their asses kicked. This makes sense but it should have no bearing on what happens other than not letting dbd play there.

I know AWOL has zero interest in this format. You kill the competitive vibe because you simply do not have enough teams to format it this way.

As for what I disagree with - pretty much the entire thing. It doesn't make any competitive sense. Go back, coherently restate the entire thing and redo the vote. If it turns out the same, I would be shocked. It should really be two divisions - competitive and recreational. You can still format it the same with the same play ins but you give teams the option if they qualify. You dont have 25 teams competing - you have maybe 15. So let the 7 or 8 teams who are competitive, compete. Let the others play recreationally and enjoy themselves. Forcing teams who want to be competitive into some meangingless middle division with a few competitive teams and whoever else is moving backwards, not forwards.

If I'm wrong and everyone wants to play in these tiny divisions then fine. But I highly doubt that the clans who are working to compete prefer this format.

This was heavily discussed in the CAT and Caff was a big part of that discussion. If I recall correctly he was in favor of the system as long as it started with CL14, not CL13, which is what was eventually decided as his points on it not being fair to change promotion rules during CL12 for CL13 was correct.

If you had a problem with this you should have communicated this more clearly to your clan rep while discussions were happening.

unless i'm mistaken (and i could be, my memory sucks) my only point was about delaying it and not screwing over the clans that were due to be promoted that season

from what i can recall i didn't even bother debating the league size issues because it was pointless

three leagues is absolutely stupid tho lol

half the clans already aren't competitive so what's the middle league even gonna look like?

in recent times we've seen more of a break from the usual top 3/4/5 helped largely in part to premier division CL because clans like ATL have been able to put up a good showing vs the big boys

you go into 3 divisions and that no longer happens. you end up with a couple clans who should clearly be in the competitive league, and others who clearly shouldn't be

at least with 2 divisions it's usually a pretty fair split

[iAmCaffeine]

I understand what you're saying, but you yourself were a CD

also this comment is amusing because Scott tried to do a lot to improve things in the clan department but they didnt listen

too much in their feelings

[Caymanmew]

I understand what you're saying, but you yourself were a CD

also this comment is amusing because Scott tried to do a lot to improve things in the clan department but they didnt listen

too much in their feelings

Not their feeling, more like general laziness, but ya, trying to get anything done as a CD simply didn't work, for either me or Scott.

That being said, Scott should have known about the changes, the CD team did release CL13 during his time as a CD and the changes were already planned by that point. That's the whole reason the priority order was put into CL13.

[groovysmurf]

also this comment is amusing because Scott tried to do a lot to improve things in the clan department but they didnt listen

too much in their feelings

I know he had a lot of good ideas and could have helped the clan community quite a bit. I was very upset when he was removed from the department and I personally made attempts to get that decision reversed.

I wasn't trying to be "cute" with that comment; I just meant that NSS understands that even good ideas can't just be implemented instantly...there's always red tape and BS.

[JPlo64]

Thread for Discussion of things related to Clan League 14.

[iAmCaffeine]

also this comment is amusing because Scott tried to do a lot to improve things in the clan department but they didnt listen

too much in their feelings

I know he had a lot of good ideas and could have helped the clan community quite a bit. I was very upset when he was removed from the department and I personally made attempts to get that decision reversed.

I wasn't trying to be "cute" with that comment; I just meant that NSS understands that even good ideas can't just be implemented instantly...there's always red tape and BS.

i know. i just said the comment was amusing to me. all good.

Not their feeling, more like general laziness, but ya, trying to get anything done as a CD simply didn't work, for either me or Scott.

That being said, Scott should have known about the changes, the CD team did release CL13 during his time as a CD and the changes were already planned by that point. That's the whole reason the priority order was put into CL13.

laziness / lack of organisation something along those lines yeah. i hear that. the feelings comment was more about his removal.

can someone explain to me why they think 3 divisions is a good idea?

[groovysmurf]

Three divisions helps to make the event more competitive and hopefully more enjoyable for all. Lower tiered clans have a higher chance to climb to second division and middle tiered clans a higher chance to reach premier. It's more difficult to hold a position in premier with the decreased number of clans and the playoffs that occur after the "main event".

Traditionally there were a group of clans at the top that never had to worry about relegation and a core group at the bottom that never really had the chance for promotion.

In a three division system, there is more excitement, action and danger! It's like an action movie. You always have to battle for your spot. You're never "safe".

[iAmCaffeine]

Three divisions helps to make the event more competitive and hopefully more enjoyable for all. Lower tiered clans have a higher chance to climb to second division and middle tiered clans a higher chance to reach premier. It's more difficult to hold a position in premier with the decreased number of clans and the playoffs that occur after the "main event".

completely disagree. 80% of the 2nd div clans do not want to promote and it's been that way for a very long time.

Traditionally there were a group of clans at the top that never had to worry about relegation

valid i can see that

and a core group at the bottom that never really had the chance for promotion.

they dont want promotion

In a three division system, there is more excitement, action and danger! It's like an action movie. You always have to battle for your spot. You're never "safe".

In a three division system, clans who could improve by playing against the top clans, now don't get to play vs them, and have to beat up the clans they already know they can.

If you look back at the last few CLs, the only clans in 2nd div that should maybe have been in 1st div where there because they were new, or because they skipped a year. Nobody has been demoted who shouldnt have been.

Three divisions just means we have the non-competitive at the bottom, where they're at anyway. But then you get "middle" clans stuck playing vs each other. So they dont improve by playing better competition.

On top of that, the top few clans becomes even more protected, which is the opposite of what we need. Only in recent years have we seen changes with that like A^ taking #1, REP pushing up. i think ICON got close before we disbanded (?) and ATL making some waves now too.

go into 3 divisions and you severely restrict the above things happening, which are interesting to see and quite exciting

[MTIceman41]

Three divisions helps to make the event more competitive and hopefully more enjoyable for all. Lower tiered clans have a higher chance to climb to second division and middle tiered clans a higher chance to reach premier. It's more difficult to hold a position in premier with the decreased number of clans and the playoffs that occur after the "main event".

completely disagree. 80% of the 2nd div clans do not want to promote and it's been that way for a very long time.

Traditionally there were a group of clans at the top that never had to worry about relegation

valid i can see that

and a core group at the bottom that never really had the chance for promotion.

they dont want promotion

In a three division system, there is more excitement, action and danger! It's like an action movie. You always have to battle for your spot. You're never "safe".

In a three division system, clans who could improve by playing against the top clans, now don't get to play vs them, and have to beat up the clans they already know they can.

If you look back at the last few CLs, the only clans in 2nd div that should maybe have been in 1st div where there because they were new, or because they skipped a year. Nobody has been demoted who shouldnt have been.

Three divisions just means we have the non-competitive at the bottom, where they're at anyway. But then you get "middle" clans stuck playing vs each other. So they dont improve by playing better competition.

On top of that, the top few clans becomes even more protected, which is the opposite of what we need. Only in recent years have we seen changes with that like A^ taking #1, REP pushing up. i think ICON got close before we disbanded (?) and ATL making some waves now too.

go into 3 divisions and you severely restrict the above things happening, which are interesting to see and quite exciting

Speaking truth…check other forums we bash at each other but here caf is spot on imo

[JPlo64]

As groovy pointed out, this was discussed and voted on already.
This general format has been decided for over a year.
For the same reason that we did not make the switch to 3 divisions last year, we can not switch back to 2 divisions now.

This format should yield a more competitive League for most. As groovy said, there are more clans in contention for promotion/relegation as opposed to a handful that are often the same year in and year out.
If it is unpopular, we could potentially change in the future.

There are some things that could change if clans quickly voted to pass through.
For a league of 3 divisions, one of which that would answer some questions would be to instead of having double round robin within the same division (2 rounds of 24 games vs 1 clan) the second round could be interdivisional with 12 games vs a clan of Division B and 12 games vs a clan of Division C. In the end you play 24 games vs each clan in your divisions, and 12 games vs each clan in the other 2 divisions. Everyone plays everyone, but you're still competing against your own division. It also makes the play-off rounds unneeded except for a 1 game playoff if the regular season matchup was a draw. This format would increase the duration of the season by 1 round in most iterations. You also might have more instances of bye rounds, either a full round bye or a half round bye in an interdivision round.

I understand what you're saying, but you yourself were a CD

also this comment is amusing because Scott tried to do a lot to improve things in the clan department but they didnt listen

too much in their feelings

Not their feeling, more like general laziness, but ya, trying to get anything done as a CD simply didn't work, for either me or Scott.

That being said, Scott should have known about the changes, the CD team did release CL13 during his time as a CD and the changes were already planned by that point. That's the whole reason the priority order was put into CL13.

NSS and Cayman both had great ideas for clans.
I really appreciated them joining the team and bringing their ideas and perspectives. I am very sad that we could not have brought more of them to fruition. Believe me, none of their ideas were ignored. Hopefully we can still make them beneficial for the future.

[Nut Shot Scott]

To be clear - I brought this up months ago in the forums and was directed to the same thread and shut down. Timing shouldn't matter but don't say I've never brought it up. Fairly certain I said something similar in CD conversations as well but whatever.

I was not a CAT member at the time of this discussion. In fact, I'm not sure I was even in a clan given the gap between ICON and AWOL. But that could be wrong.

I'm not being a dick here. But this is simply a poor idea and acting as though it cannot be changed is simply untrue.

Also, just because something has been talked about for years is not evidence of it being a good idea.

I have run and created many competitions on a lot of levels - this would never be on my radar and there is no proof of concept for this.

You want 3 divisions? Cool. Then split them up evenly and have a 4 team playoff. Top 3 D400 are split, then next 3 and so on. Three division winners and the next best team go into a playoff. This is less than ideal but it makes more sense than the current ideation.

I do not claim to be right - I could very well be wrong but I would say my compass on this is pretty good imo. This idea seems counterintuitive to every point you made, as Caff said. Competitive clans want to play competitive clans and lower clans want to be competitive as well, it just isn't fun otherwise. Personally, I would do away with the whole idea and just say two leagues - competitive and recreational as I said.

The target on the upper clans back is super fun to go after - by cutting out half of PD you take that away and shrink the pool of teams even more. Let's hear from some others. Winning SD do it for you? Or was it a stepping stone to PD, where the real fun is?

[Nut Shot Scott]

As groovy pointed out, this was discussed and voted on already.
This general format has been decided for over a year.
For the same reason that we did not make the switch to 3 divisions last year, we can not switch back to 2 divisions now.

This format should yield a more competitive League for most. As groovy said, there are more clans in contention for promotion/relegation as opposed to a handful that are often the same year in and year out.
If it is unpopular, we could potentially change in the future.

Nonsense. All you have to do is change it.

The idea that this is more competitive is plain wrong. Do you think DBD ever wants to play in a division with rep, lion, s&m and awol? LMAO. They do not. Those clans want to play each other and not get stomped. So acting as though relegation and promotion matters at that level is dumb. The clans who want to compete want to compete, plain and simple. The argument is asinine.

I like you JP and groovy, but you're dead wrong. But whatever. Keep driving clans into the ground.

[iAmCaffeine]

i keep trying to write a post on this after what i've said already but i literally can't put into words how backwards the thinking is that increasing promotions + relegations = more competition

it's so beyond incorrect i cannot fathom it

[groovysmurf]

Nonsense. All you have to do is change it.

The idea that this is more competitive is plain wrong. Do you think DBD ever wants to play in a division with rep, lion, s&m and awol? LMAO. They do not. Those clans want to play each other and not get stomped. So acting as though relegation and promotion matters at that level is dumb. The clans who want to compete want to compete, plain and simple. The argument is asinine.

I like you JP and groovy, but you're dead wrong. But whatever. Keep driving clans into the ground.

If this system doesn't work out or if clans do not enjoy, it WILL be changed back, but people voted for this to happen. You're speaking for other clans, yet they have already spoken for themselves and were FOR this change. Who are you to say that they no longer wish for the change to 3 divisions? Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean everyone feels the same.

We are trying to get clans going again here. Trying to bring them back to life! Mix it up a bit and do something different that people seemed to WANT! Please try to understand that going back on an agreed upon plan is NOT the answer here. This has nothing to do with our personal preferences; it's a decision that was brought up and approved by the majority of clans.

[iAmCaffeine]

i explained in detail how this does nothing to incentivise clans and actually discourages competition

the only responses are "clans voted for it" and "we're trying to make clans more active again"

but nothing in response to the actual points i made

[Caymanmew]

I was one of the main people pushing for this, I'm happy to explain why I think it is good and I got real-life experience to back it up. (at least from my perspective)

The idea that competing for the top is the only way to enjoy or find competition rewarding is ridiculous. I've played sports my whole life, winning easily or standing no chance of victory is no fun. It is not competitive, it is not enjoyable, and it is not rewarding. You don't push yourself and get those hard-fought battles to get your wins. Wins that are a forgone conclusion are hollow and pointless and playing a match you stand no chance at only to be humiliated is demoralizing and boring. I have been in sports matches on both sides, it sucks, and it is a waste of my night.

That is why sports leagues, especially adult sports leagues do their best to match similarly skilled teams together. Matches are closer, competition is higher, and overall enjoyment goes up. I play in a Futsal league that has 4 divisions, the season is split in half and the top teams in each division get promoted and the bottom teams get demoted. Let me tell you, no one in the 3rd or 4th division gave a shit about the 1st division. We'd play like hell in our division working to get that promotion, winning our division felt rewarding as we had to push ourselves to get that win. And maybe we stick in the next division after promotion, or maybe we just get sent back down, but we got to play to win and got the same feeling of victory as any other division winners got.

With 3 divisions we will have a much more balanced league. Almost every clan can go out with a realistic shot of winning their division. And if they do, then they get a shot at sticking it at a higher level and evolving as a clan and building on their victory.

Let's assume everyone in the Priority order signs up (except TOP obviously) as well as Lions

Now we got the following divisions.

PD
TOFU
A^
LHDD
FALL
ATL

SD
S&M
REP
AWOL
LOW
RET
LIONS

TD
DBD
RGV
GON
KNT
LOTZ

You look at those divisions, PD is competitive with everyone having a shot to go 1st, except maybe ATL but then they have been surprising as of late. SD looks tight with S&M the favourite but AWOL, REP, LIONS all have decent shots to upset, and LOW is not out of place. RET will likely struggle though. TD should be a tight match between DBD, RGV, and GON. LOTZ and KNT would likely be last but wouldn't take the same beating they would vs better clans.

With this you have more competition because all but a few clans are realistically competing for 1st in their divisions. Almost no clans are forced to play a clan significantly better than they are.

As far as I am concerned this is a far more healthy system and one that might go a long way to keep more clans invested in CL and clans in general.

[Keefie]

What will happen if we get less than 15 clans sign up for CL14 ? Say only 12 sign ???

[groovysmurf]

What will happen if we get less than 15 clans sign up for CL14 ? Say only 12 sign ???

It's specified in the rules that if 14 or less, there will be only 2 divisions.