Hi WalrusesRN,
I tend to avoid the nature of God / existence of God topic due to its really a matter of personal interpretation and ultimately nobody will agree on either side. You asked, however, about flaws in reasoning and quoted me, so I’ll jump in temporarily.
WalrusesRN wrote: If God determines every characteristic you have, and is all-knowing, then he knows when he creates you how you will respond in life and the life you will ultimately lead.
The first thing I see here is that you are providing a concept of an all-knowing and all-powerful God as if it were the only possible concept. You, as I’m sure you know, are taking the predestination idea of the Calvinists. It’s an idea, sure, but by no means representative of all Christians and their beliefs. In fact, if you meet someone who believes this let me know; I never have it would be neat to talk with them.
So the first thing you are doing is trying to saddle the believers here with a belief they probably don’t agree with in the first place. Other concepts of God are possible: For instance, He gives us all of our characteristics and then takes a hands-off approach. A car company may make a car with exact specifications, but once it is delivered to the driver anything can happen. If a Ferrari owner never has the oil changed; he’ll have a problem sooner or later.
So, basically you are making a faulty generalization. A minority of Christians might believe something like what you are saying, but you seem to be assuming all of us believe that. It’s faulty because most of us don’t. So you aren’t arguing against the existence, or even possibility of God’s being all powerful and all knowing. You are arguing against the plausibility of Predestination. Which I agree is implausible, that’s why I didn’t believe it in the first place (well, you asked for a detailed critique
).
WalrusesRN wrote: I am not saying he only allows you to do certain things, I am saying that in creating you, he decides what you will do by giving you your qualities and knowing what will become of you. You make your decisions, but he made you the way you are, and so you will make the decisions he knew you would make when he made you.
See predestination above. What if your definition of all-knowing is faulty. Perhaps, like I believe, it means something more akin to knowing all of the possible choices and having a plan for where he’d like me to go, but leaving it up to me to make those choices or not. Again you are assuming all Christians are Predestinationists; most aren’t for the very reasons you have admirably put forth. Again, really good argument against Predestination, but as I didn’t ascribe to that in the first place, it doesn’t apply to me. My understanding of God is different than your construct. Again you have assumed that your concept is the only valid one, and generalized that if you attack this one concept you have attacked the entire world view. Hey, If I believed in predestination, you’d have me shaking in my shoes though.
WalrusesRN wrote: The only way that you could be in real control of your own actions is if God did not make everything about you the way it is, and that would imply that God is either not all-powerful, or is purposely randomizing the morals of the people he creates.
You stated earlier that he gave us our characteristics. Then you went on to make the assertion that there are only two possible alternatives. You have generalized that giving characteristics and giving morals are the same thing. The Nature vs. Nurture debate in psychology hasn’t lead to a consensus about whether morals (psychological traits) are ingrained at birth or are a result of interaction with people around us. You basically assumed that it’s nature and therefore God’s will that we have such and such a moral code from birth. I think it’s more likely to be a mix of the two. God gives us a starting point and we take it from there. Regardless, you made an attempt to force a conclusion “God isn’t all-powerful, or he’s meddlesome and capricious” these are not the only two possible conclusions to be made. Like a father giving his son the keys to the car. He could have given us a good start and then voluntarily stepped aside hoping we’ll make responsible choices while we’re out.
WalrusesRN wrote: Please explain where there is any flaw in my reasoning in detail, as people have seemed to only tell me I'm wrong in this point and said "He doesn't control everything you do" without giving any explanation of how this can be wrong from the argument I have given.
Again, you made a good argument against predestination. You won me over; I don’t believe in predestination either. The flaws in predestination, however, don’t really have much bearing on the existence of God, or whether or not he is all powerful. Certainly, I believe he’s all powerful, but people on the site have told you that they believe he chooses to allow us to make our own choices. I believe he’s all-knowing, in that he knows all the possible choices and all of the possible futures that we might make or have. He chooses to let us make them knowing the consequences, but hoping eventually for us to follow him.
Now, having said this, I don’t expect you to embrace my beliefs. They are just that, my beliefs. Arguing the point will have little effect either way. You asked for a critique of your reasoning. My critique is that it misses the point you apparently intended to make, because in it you are ascribing beliefs to Christians that most do not believe. You also try to force your opposition to choose between two conclusions when there are other equally valid ones that do not suit your purposes. (Sorry, you said, in detail
)
are registered trademarks of Backglass Heavy Industries.
