Gordon Brown..

[Napoleon Ier]

Germany is a country founded on occult and totalitarian principles with an emphasis on violence. They always get away with invading other European countries.

And you know what, this continental is fed up.

[got tonkaed]

But then again, you seem to have a problem with white, british males who have decent, useful, applicable jobs, so it's all very subjective.

Don't flatter yourself chap.

I am un-flatterable. I'm too pragmatic.

your anti immigration stances are not pragmatic for 21st century developed nations.

[suggs]

Germany is a country founded on occult and totalitarian principles with an emphasis on violence. They always get away with invading other European countries.

And you know what, this continental is fed up.

hmm "get away with"??? the french 1870 shambles excepted, the germans havent got a great track record of winning their last two fixtures.
germany always will be the strongest country in europe-get over it. Fortunately, the EU exists. Which means France, Britain etc have some chance of restraining her.

[Norse]

Germany is a country founded on occult and totalitarian principles with an emphasis on violence. They always get away with invading other European countries.

And you know what, this continental is fed up.

I understand maybe some hard feelings towards the krauts what with the wars, and them taking rhine land, but this was over 50 years ago, times have changed too much.

[Norse]

Fortunately, the EU exists.

Worst quote ever.

[Napoleon Ier]

Fortunately, the EU exists.

Worst quote ever.

+100000

[Napoleon Ier]

Germany is a country founded on occult and totalitarian principles with an emphasis on violence. They always get away with invading other European countries.

And you know what, this continental is fed up.

I understand maybe some hard feelings towards the krauts what with the wars, and them taking rhine land, but this was over 50 years ago, times have changed too much.

They haven't

Germany unified is a threat to european security. It creates a natural destabilization of, Europe

[Norse]

your anti immigration stances are not pragmatic for 21st century developed nations.

Hang on, with your humanitarian, 3rd world views, maybe you should be of the opinion that the well-trained doctors and tradesmen should stay in their 3rd world nations, and help develop and cater for them?

Just seems odd that you in particular would feel comfortable with developed nations poaching undeveloped nations' talent.

Besides, there is nothing particularly frugal about housing and feeding thousands upon thousands of large, hungry families that have no intention of contributing to the system.

[Norse]

Germany unified is a threat to european security. It creates a natural destabilization of, Europe

I'm not following you... how do you mean?

[suggs]

Fortunately, the EU exists.

Worst quote ever.

Oh Christ, dont tell me you're one of these neanderthal eurosceptics, Norse?
Perhaps you'd prefer another five hundred years of European War?
Get real old boy-joining the EU is one of the few British successes of recent years.

[Norse]

Oh Christ, dont tell me you're one of these neanderthal eurosceptics, Norse?

Call me what you please, but I am not sceptical, more 100% dead-set against it.

Perhaps you'd prefer another five hundred years of European War?
Get real old boy-joining the EU is one of the few British successes of recent years.

British success? How does the EU benefit Britain in any way?

[got tonkaed]

your anti immigration stances are not pragmatic for 21st century developed nations.

Hang on, with your humanitarian, 3rd world views, maybe you should be of the opinion that the well-trained doctors and tradesmen should stay in their 3rd world nations, and help develop and cater for them?

Just seems odd that you in particular would feel comfortable with developed nations poaching undeveloped nations' talent.

Besides, there is nothing particularly frugal about housing and feeding thousands upon thousands of large, hungry families that have no intention of contributing to the system.

Dont get me wrong, i would certainly believe it would be best if the most talented professionals worked in their home countries and helped bring their countries up the ladder of development. But in countries where the infrastructure/education/training isnt up to par, brain drain is a bit of an inevitablitiy. However you can at least be hopeful with brain drain to an extent, that you hope that as conditions improve, people will want to go home and be a part of rebuilding their countries.

Also that type of immigration is certainly different than the type you are talking about at the end of the post, because those best and brightest are going to contribute to the economy.

But its not hard for anyone to see why these people are doing what they are doing. You dont have to read world system theory to be a realist about these things, if you think you have a chance for a better life in a different country, your going to try and do it if its possible. Im spend a fair amount of time down from the clouds as well. Its not hard to understand the pull factors to developed nations from less developed ones.

Where your impracticality comes in, is you expect people who want to better their lives to not come, when the developed world essentially does little to nothing to reach all those development goals which could begin to slow some of that brain drain. Frankly high global captialism leads to to core nations exploting perhipheral workforces in an effort to increase profit margins. Neither side (corporation or worker) is acting outside of their economic interest. My namby pamby views however just want to ameliorate the workers condition whereas you would be fine with a simple Get the f*ck out please...which cannot happen and never would.

[Norse]

I like your posts Tonky, but do you have to drown them with so many words?

[got tonkaed]

I like your posts Tonky, but do you have to drown them with so many words?

lol every time i post i think to myself...if i was somewhat else this is what i would say

"woah, i aint reading all that!" or

"Jesus not this shit again"

but i cant use less words i have a gift of lack of brevity.

[suggs]

Oh Christ, dont tell me you're one of these neanderthal eurosceptics, Norse?

Call me what you please, but I am not sceptical, more 100% dead-set against it.

Perhaps you'd prefer another five hundred years of European War?
Get real old boy-joining the EU is one of the few British successes of recent years.

British success? How does the EU benefit Britain in any way?

Enhance prestige cf Norway
European Courts-a handy antidote to bigotry.
Common Market (hence cheaper goods)
Not at War with Germany
Not at war with Germany
Not at war with Germany
Prevented Britain from becoming the 51st state.
GIves us more say in the shape of Europe-fancy stabding on the touchline while the French and Geramns dominate?

Plus-(this is admitedly difficult to prove) its probably benefitted uk economically, and certainly hasnt done us any harm.

[Napoleon Ier]

Germany unified is a threat to european security. It creates a natural destabilization of, Europe

I'm not following you... how do you mean?

germany due its central and strategic position, when unified, concentrates its efforts of violent lebensraum seeking into a single nation, usually the weakest one at the time.
it works better as a collection of commercial intermittently belligerent states for Europe to be a safer place.
To the extent we have every right to demand it, and that it is just safer for everyone, even if right now Germany is still in a repentant stage of pacifistic docility, I believe the right move is to split up Germany.

[suggs]

Yes that worked well in the nineteenth century when someone else tried to dominate the whole of europe oh yes the French...
or even, 1918-1933, Germany was split what a great success...

[Napoleon Ier]

suggs :

The Eu is techno-beaurocratic carceran which sits, a centralizing neo-Jocobinite blob, for want of a better word, oozing filthy red tape, and justn polluting our lives.
It doesn't allow cheaper goods. Im all for free trade to the extent it is beneficial to my nation, and the EU, regulates the tarriffs France or Britain can put up to foreign imports. I would prefer a series of treaties on a nation by nation case by case basis.
It also poses a huge threat to national identity and sovereignty.

[got tonkaed]

Since im busy disagreeing with europeans in this thread....mr napoelon...have you considered you are maybe operating on antiquated views of the state and economy in your analysis of Germany?

If i was a controlling interest in Germany im terrified of the notion that Germany would be spreading out, because its awful business. Now watch me be wrong here and ruin my whole argument (but if i remember correctly) Germany has a fairly strong union presence compared to a lot of other nations, including european ones. Now for a country that still has some strong industrial elements, you are certainly going to want to have that manufacturing done in areas where you can gain an economic advantage by getting cheap labor and still quality parts. Its hard to do that when you have those pesky unions always asking for workers to have a say in how companies are ran.

The larger your country, the more satelite companies that get sucked up into your union fold = smaller bottom line.

I say this without pointing out the fact that lebensraum argument is pretty silly in 21st century politics, but rather point out why this might just be bad business.

[Napoleon Ier]

Yes that worked well in the nineteenth century when someone else tried to dominate the whole of europe oh yes the French...
or even, 1918-1933, Germany was split what a great success...

no it wasn't....it remained a single nation-state under Weimar

It just lost token regions like the Polish corridor and Schwelsig Holstein, Saarland etc...

And if the League of Nations had been arsed to do anything about re-militarization and occupation of the Rhineland, we would have nipped Hitler in the bud.
Instead Europe was paralyzed with mantras of appeasement.

"It is ridiculous that we are digging shelters against German bombs over a conflict so far away involving people we have never heard of"
that was the attitude that cost WWII

[suggs]

suggs :

The Eu is techno-beaurocratic carceran which sits, a centralizing neo-Jocobinite blob, for want of a better word, oozing filthy red tape, and justn polluting our lives.
It doesn't allow cheaper goods. Im all for free trade to the extent it is beneficial to my nation, and the EU, regulates the tarriffs France or Britain can put up to foreign imports. I would prefer a series of treaties on a nation by nation case by case basis.
It also poses a huge threat to national identity and sovereignty.

I find it sad that you have so little belief in French, British etc concepts of identity and sovereignty, that you think a commission in Brussels is going to over turn a 1000 years of history. The French have been in the EU for 50 years, and you guys still seem pretty French to me...

[Napoleon Ier]

I say this without pointing out the fact that lebensraum argument is pretty silly in 21st century politics, but rather point out why this might just be bad business.

Yeah. It may be a very real problem in the 22nd.

[got tonkaed]

I say this without pointing out the fact that lebensraum argument is pretty silly in 21st century politics, but rather point out why this might just be bad business.

Yeah. It may be a very real problem in the 22nd.

i tell you what, there are some pretty big ones on their own that might make the 22nd a rough one to bet on, that maybe we should think about solving first.

[suggs]

"token" regions like the Saarland? the occupation of the rhineland. Er they are central to Germany. Or you dont mind if the brits grab that token "Normandy" off you?!
You cant split Germany up, for the simple reason the Germans wont stand for it. I'd be a bit cross if they took Essex out of England.

[Napoleon Ier]

suggs :

The Eu is techno-beaurocratic carceran which sits, a centralizing neo-Jocobinite blob, for want of a better word, oozing filthy red tape, and justn polluting our lives.
It doesn't allow cheaper goods. Im all for free trade to the extent it is beneficial to my nation, and the EU, regulates the tarriffs France or Britain can put up to foreign imports. I would prefer a series of treaties on a nation by nation case by case basis.
It also poses a huge threat to national identity and sovereignty.

I find it sad that you have so little belief in French, British etc concepts of identity and sovereignty, that you think a commission in Brussels is going to over turn a 1000 years of history. The French have been in the EU for 50 years, and you guys still seem pretty French to me...

Try to talk about France and what it means to be French in a school and the kids laugh at you.

France is in dissaray, and is being stripped of its identity, and lobotomized into belief that any form of national pride is somehow sinister, so that the french are no longer able to relate to thier roots. And i do blame the progressive abandon of traditonal, rural and Catholic France on the UE, afro-maghrébin occupation and sub-culture, and lefitist subversives