Cheating to get to conqueror

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I will take care of the wife for you....again

you really feel up to the task? what if i tell you're wife about this? think she'll use the nut cracker...again?
cause remember last time she used it you talked like a little girl for over a month

I will tell her for you. By the way, your doing a fabulous job with my kids. I think I might send some support money if I find the time.

[DiM]

I will take care of the wife for you....again

you really feel up to the task? what if i tell you're wife about this? think she'll use the nut cracker...again?
cause remember last time she used it you talked like a little girl for over a month

I will tell her for you. By the way, your doing a fabulous job with my kids. I think I might send some support money if I find the time.

no need for the support money, your kids are providing me with more than enough. your youngest son is begging at the street corner, your older boy has been turned into a local crack dealer and your daughter...ummm...well now that she's finally starting to grow some boobs i think she's ready for some .... ummm...adult services


now enough thread jacking and let's return to the real issue here. cheating/abusing/ rule bending and how it can be stopped.

[Catawbain]

well, I haven't been playing for too long, and I suppose that multiple accounts are logged by IP, this NEVER really stops everyone that wants to cheat. There are several ways around it, most difficult would be switching proxies for each and every turn. A deterrent for this would be to go through, search around the Internet find proxies, and add them to a banned list of IP's, a problem with that however is sometimes, there's variations to the address and you could even end up accidentally banning an entire country, then you would have to go through each and every one and figure out which one caused the nation-wide-ban. It would have to be done almost weekly to keep up with changing proxies, another way would be to go to have several different computers, this is slightly more detectable then using several different proxy's because it would be the same BASE IP address but a small variation between the computers.

I'd hate to give people ideas, but there really is no way to stop it, and no way to really detect it, unless they aren't clever enough, or slip up one time.

( I know this because I MUD and used to Gold Farm for online games )

[AAFitz]

ok, no flame here

I personally think SkyT was doing a little more than making random moves. I think he was actually setting the games up too with all 3 accounts with full intention of playing all 3 accounts.

My son has asked me to set up an account. I of course told him no because I can only imagine what course of action would immediately be taken. Would this be fair to us if we wanted to play a team game with one another? Of course not, but yet so many times the acusation of players cheating were cleared because the excuse of family members using the same IP was permitted.

I personally think there should be an auto block from every player doing this.

theres absolutely nothing wrong with your son playing... and no one would have a problem if you played a few team games and he made his own moves...you can discuss them as much as you want, like any two teammates can, but the key is you make your moves...he makes his... and no one would doubt that.

[SkyT]

i havent posted anything in the forum for a long time, but this thread really got my attention.

so dim, how about this, u go and help lack set up a gobal missle system that points to everyone that registered in cc, and lets have a super computer that detect every single move everyone makes, and as soon as someone breaks a rule, lets nuke the shit out of them. since you concern so much about cheating.

what i did back when dan qstupid and i were playing freestyle together was a grey area, and our action resulted it becoming a rule, and as a result, we do not play triple freestyle together anymore. in your words, you think i should be banned from the site forever, then why dont you ban everyone who broke a rule that was not part of this site from the very beginning when lack made it, but was later implemented.

[sully800]

1. if lack and a few mods take subjective decisions of what's fair or not and punish people yes the power would be in the hands of a few that can punish anybody as they like. BUT do you really think lack would allow simple random punishments? 2-3 cases where the mods are proved to have acted out of spite, revenge, jealousy, etc are enogh to brand this as a stupid place where the mods are nazis and everybody will leave costing lack a lot of money. i'm sure that he will do his best to not allow such a thing to happen. he has nothing to gain from banning randomly. he has only to lose. that's why i feel this system would work really well.

In truth every case really is a subjective matter to some degree. That's why we have to make new decisions for big cases like these. But my point was that we also need to make the rules as clear as possible, instead of simplifying it to "play fair". So we update the rules as new situations arise and we have the generic "gross abuse of the game" rule to fix problems that haven't come up before.

2. the cheating/abuse/rule bending i mentioned exist (i can guarantee that) but i didn't say i will use them to get to the top. i don't have the time and i'm not the kind of person to do it. i just want to know what would happen if i did such a thing. what if i cheated/abused/bent rules on my way to the top. would i be banned or punished in any way? or would i be allowed to keep my points, be given a warning and then the rules changed?

I know you didn't mean that you would break the rules to the top. You simply mentioned that there are new ways to do so that we don't currently look at. So if such ways exist, then catching them ahead of time would be very helpful.

because it seems that a simple warning is what skyt got and to be honest i'm actually tempted to get to the top just to take a screenshot and if i had the time i could do it. i probably wouldn't though. but it's actually really easy. i'm at 2100-2400 points and i think with enough time on my hands i could get to 4000 in ~1 month or even less depending on several factors. damn my wife my frirnds and my job, they take all the time and i can't cheat my way to #1.

I agree that skyt got a light punishment. It would have been hard to give less of a punishment, unless we ignored the case entirely, and I'm sure that's why people are still upset about it.

There are two issues leading to that I think:

1) As I said earlier, there was no clear rule about when account sitting was okay and when it wasn't. I'm sure they realized they were overusing the account sitting privileges but since there wasn't a written rule they didn't view it as cheating.

2) The advantage they gained from account sitting wasn't enormous, and therefore not "gross abuse"... At least not in my opinion and thats where things get subjective once again . All three users of the accounts in question live in the same room and can take simultaneous turns very often without account sitting. By abusing the sitting privilege they were able to do it more often, but I'm sure if there had been a strict rule in place they would be able to wait until each person was home more often then not. And therefore they'd have the same advantage of a coordinated team, just with much less convenience.

The warning gave them a second chance to keep enjoying the game while following the newly clarified rules, and we have always been willing to give second chances. I know some view that as too lenient of a mentality, but the goal is to make the site as enjoyable as possible for everyone, which is why blocking family and friends right away is less than an ideal solution.

[DiM]

i havent posted anything in the forum for a long time, but this thread really got my attention.

so dim, how about this, u go and help lack set up a gobal missle system that points to everyone that registered in cc, and lets have a super computer that detect every single move everyone makes, and as soon as someone breaks a rule, lets nuke the shit out of them. since you concern so much about cheating.

what i did back when dan qstupid and i were playing freestyle together was a grey area, and our action resulted it becoming a rule, and as a result, we do not play triple freestyle together anymore. in your words, you think i should be banned from the site forever, then why dont you ban everyone who broke a rule that was not part of this site from the very beginning when lack made it, but was later implemented.

actually since you say this thread captured your attention i think you should have at least read it.

all i said is that you should have been given a warning+score reset+blocking form playing with accomplices.

what you did wasn't illegal and so no banning should be imposed but it was very wrong and such a warning+reset+block should have been enforced.

the point is that by allowing you to still hold your "cheated"(*) points CC passively encourages cheating.

if i start "cheating"(*) tommorrow and get to #1 and then my form of "cheating"(*) becomes illegal i should still be punished severely not just warned.


(*) i mean a form of cheating by a busing a loophole in the rules. not cheating accordingto the rules but still a form of abuse/cheat/rule bending.

[DiM]

...

big o not the advantage they gotfrom this was still an advantage, an unfair one. second chances are ok especially since this was a grey area of the rules that's why i said warning+score reset+block of playing eachother should have been done, and for all future similar abuses direct baning.

with a warning+score reset+block they still would have kept their accounts and enjoy playing the game

[Risktaker17]

I think SkyT may bend the rules, but Krusher doesn't cheat at all.

[Visaoni]

...

big o not the advantage they gotfrom this was still an advantage, an unfair one. second chances are ok especially since this was a grey area of the rules that's why i said warning+score reset+block of playing eachother should have been done, and for all future similar abuses direct baning.

with a warning+score reset+block they still would have kept their accounts and enjoy playing the game

That's a rather harsh punishment for a gray area. As sully said, all it did was give them a little more connivence. SkyT would have made it to the top either way, it just would have meant a little more waiting for people to come over. A score reset (from Conquerer no less) and a block from playing with good friends is harsh. It isn't a ban, but it might as well be. If that happened to you for a gray area wouldn't you be pissed enough to quit?

It would be like going to Rockefeller after the anti-trust legislation was passed and telling him he had to hand over his entire profits since he started his business, and that he was banned from ever being involved in the oil industry again.

[sully800]

big o not the advantage they gotfrom this was still an advantage, an unfair one. second chances are ok especially since this was a grey area of the rules that's why i said warning+score reset+block of playing eachother should have been done, and for all future similar abuses direct baning.

with a warning+score reset+block they still would have kept their accounts and enjoy playing the game

I definitely see where you are coming from, and as I said, the punishment was indeed light in this case. But since these three actually know each other and have always played as a triples team, blocking them is a pretty harsh punishment for an unwritten rule. Since they were warned they haven't made any freestyle triples games, and I believe they indeed to stay out of them in the future. That shows me they have taken our warning to heart, and because of that I'm glad they can still play together and enjoy the site as it was meant to be played.

The score reset is just a rare punishment for us to use. I don't have the ability to do it... in fact I believe only lack himself can reset points. SkyT gained most of his points by working well with his partners. Some extra points were gained by bending the rules which is unfortunate for everyone, but exactly how many points is hard to say. And dropping their scores down to 1000 wouldn't give people back the points that were lost, and I think thats a bigger issue in this case. Besides if these 3 were all back at 1000 points then they would be nabbing huge amounts of points from unsuspecting teams

I hope you can take solace in the fact that the precedent has been set, and account sitting in this manner is outlawed for all future cases. I will definitely consider your suggestions from these cases in future rulings as well, because I think you've re-proven how important these decisions are.

[sully800]

That's a rather harsh punishment for a gray area. As sully said, all it did was give them a little more connivence. SkyT would have made it to the top either way, it just would have meant a little more waiting for people to come over. A score reset (from Conquerer no less) and a block from playing with good friends is harsh. It isn't a ban, but it might as well be. If that happened to you for a gray area wouldn't you be pissed enough to quit?

It would be like going to Rockefeller after the anti-trust legislation was passed and telling him he had to hand over his entire profits since he started his business, and that he was banned from ever being involved in the oil industry again.

I think you have a better way with words than me, haha. You stated what I'm trying to say in a more concise manner and with a good analogy.

And once again DiM, I don't disagree with your view. We just erred on the side of caution in this case since it was our fault that the rules were not extremely clear.

[comic boy]

I think SkyT may bend the rules, but Krusher doesn't cheat at all.

Ha Ha
Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I think SkyT may bend the rules, but Krusher doesn't cheat at all.

Ha Ha
Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well

well yeah....duh. Where else does the money come from ?

[alex_white101]

I think SkyT may bend the rules, but Krusher doesn't cheat at all.

Ha Ha
Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well

well yeah....duh. Where else does the money come from ?

your mum.

[AK_iceman]

The score reset is just a rare punishment for us to use. I don't have the ability to do it... in fact I believe only lack himself can reset points. SkyT gained most of his points by working well with his partners. Some extra points were gained by bending the rules which is unfortunate for everyone, but exactly how many points is hard to say. And dropping their scores down to 1000 wouldn't give people back the points that were lost, and I think thats a bigger issue in this case. Besides if these 3 were all back at 1000 points then they would be nabbing huge amounts of points from unsuspecting teams

Unless Lack changed it since I stepped down, all the mods have the point reset capabilities. Although a LOT of discussion goes on behind the scenes before ever using one.

In some ways, score resets are not good punishments, as sully listed above. But for some specific occasions, a reset is just what the doctor ordered. Like when people knowingly abuse the system and break rules in order to gain points and get a high score.

[Dancing Mustard]

So can you only reset points to 1000, or can you set them to whatever the hell you feel like? Just curious is all...

[Molacole]

big o not the advantage they gotfrom this was still an advantage, an unfair one. second chances are ok especially since this was a grey area of the rules that's why i said warning+score reset+block of playing eachother should have been done, and for all future similar abuses direct baning.

with a warning+score reset+block they still would have kept their accounts and enjoy playing the game

I definitely see where you are coming from, and as I said, the punishment was indeed light in this case. But since these three actually know each other and have always played as a triples team, blocking them is a pretty harsh punishment for an unwritten rule. Since they were warned they haven't made any freestyle triples games, and I believe they indeed to stay out of them in the future. That shows me they have taken our warning to heart, and because of that I'm glad they can still play together and enjoy the site as it was meant to be played.

The score reset is just a rare punishment for us to use. I don't have the ability to do it... in fact I believe only lack himself can reset points. SkyT gained most of his points by working well with his partners. Some extra points were gained by bending the rules which is unfortunate for everyone, but exactly how many points is hard to say. And dropping their scores down to 1000 wouldn't give people back the points that were lost, and I think thats a bigger issue in this case. Besides if these 3 were all back at 1000 points then they would be nabbing huge amounts of points from unsuspecting teams

I hope you can take solace in the fact that the precedent has been set, and account sitting in this manner is outlawed for all future cases. I will definitely consider your suggestions from these cases in future rulings as well, because I think you've re-proven how important these decisions are.

what a load of shit...


"And dropping their scores down to 1000 wouldn't give people back the points that were lost, and I think thats a bigger issue in this case"

I think "the issue" is that they made it to the top by cheating.

We just erred on the side of caution in this case since it was our fault that the rules were not extremely clear.

The last person who broke the rules when they weren't extremely clear got perma banned from the site...

I don't feel a perma ban is what is needed in this case. However, dropping their scores to 1000 would pretty much get the point across to the community that cheating isn't taken lightly. It would also give the person the chance to redeem himself. As of right now this player is going to be black listed as a cheater for the remainder of his time on this site. The only way to avoid that is to reset his score and let him earn it the good old fashion way (without cheating).

The decision made in this situation is crippling both the player and mods integrity.

I just don't see why the decision to treat this like it never happend was made...

[DiM]

this is how i see it. skyt admitted he pushed the rules into a grey area fully aware that what he was doing was legal but wrong. he was allowed to keep his score and even play with his accomplices and all he got was a simple verbal warning. i don't care if he got only a few points or even if he came up with minus in points. the idea is that he cheated and got away with it. even if this isn't in the rules the mods are there to judge every situation and take action. the mods have the duty of enforcing the law and keeping the site fair. in this case, as sully admits they were too lenient.

if i make a multi but i'm so stupid that even with a multi i lose points will i be forgiven? i didn't get any profit so i didn't hurt anybody but that was still cheating.

the biggest problem in this case is that with how skyt was handled created a very dangerous precedent. he cheated/abused/bent rules on his way to #1 and got away with a warning. this means that NONE of the people that will abuse the system through the loopholes in the rules can be punished with anything more than a waning. it just wouldn't be fair. why let a guy escape but punish another.

sully said that making the fairness rule would lead to subjective judgments and that wouldn't be good. but right now we have this in the rules:

Unwritten Rules
Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts.

isn't this subjective? what is considered gross abuse? won't there be problems when an abuser is punished and he keeps saying it wasn't an abuse? who will decide what is abuse and what isn't?

the new unwritten rules deepen the confusion even more.

as i said i see several ways of cheating/abusing/bending the rules for profit. and if i apply them and get more than a warning i'd be really pissed since they are according to the rules and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them except for the fact that they are unfair tactics.


sully says that taking the point from skyt would still mean that his victims aren't getting their points back. so what? when a criminal is put in jail for murder his victim isn't resurrected but he still deserves to be put in jail.

also you say that with a point reset they would get huge points from their opponents. so what? how's that a problem? if they are truly good players then they deserve the points, let them earn the points the right way not by cheating.

again let me simplify. skyt & co willingly cheated/abused/bent rules to get an unfair advantage. big or not it doesn't matter. they knew exactly what they were doing and should be punished for this. i'm a firm believer of the principle that if something is not in the rules then the higher power (lack, mods) should take a decision and apply it, not say "hey nice going mate you found a loophole and abused it, congrats, go ahead and keep your points but promise me you won't do it again"

it's not normal to have a cheater and a suspected cheater at the top of the scoreboard. it really throws a big black spot on the white shirt of the mods.

if i remember correctly dugcarr did everything by the book. he didn't break any rules and yet he got a straight ban. i find a really big discrepancy in the judgment of the 2 cases. where was the second chance for dugcarr? don't get me wrong, what was done with him was fair and i totally support his ban but what was done here is simply wrong.

i have nothing against skyt or krusher and to be honest i don't care if they hold the first 2 spots or if they are cooks. but what they did was wrong and punishment should be enforced.

[HAWK79]

i personally think that anyone caught cheating should be perma band it would get the point across a lot better that no BS is going to be taken