Feedback on Foundry Process from some new blood (was Puget)

[rebelman]

Like i already said, this thread was a waste of time and is evidenly the result of tisha and wicked friendship rather than wicked carrying out her mod duties.

possible new foundry motto (courtesy of W B Yeats)

There are no strangers here just friends who have yet to meet

[mibi]

waste of a thread ?????? ye sound like my granny.

Wicked is more concerned with quoting individual members out of context than any real meaningful discussion. This is quite obvious. I am all for a good discussion, but she brings nothing new to the table here.

[rebelman]

waste of a thread ?????? ye sound like my granny.

Wicked is more concerned with quoting individual members out of context than any real meaningful discussion. This is quite obvious. I am all for a good discussion, but she brings nothing new to the table here.

mibi i was trying to do a clever play on the word thread, but like most of my efforts at humour it obviously bombed.

[wicked]

It's called staying on topic within a map thread mibi. To quote you, "get used to it".

Yes Andy, map makers have to have a thick skin, but the people here making comments need to learn how to give constructive advice without bashing the map and putting the map maker on the defensive. If everyone was just a bit more positive, then maybe there wouldn't be knockout drag-down fights over maps and everyone would be more productive and maps would progress.

[yeti_c]

It's called staying on topic within a map thread mibi. To quote you, "get used to it".

Yes Andy, map makers have to have a thick skin, but the people here making comments need to learn how to give constructive advice without bashing the map and putting the map maker on the defensive. If everyone was just a bit more positive, then maybe there wouldn't be knockout drag-down fights over maps and everyone would be more productive and maps would progress.

Isn't that knock down drag out...!?!

C.

[mibi]

waste of a thread ?????? ye sound like my granny.

Wicked is more concerned with quoting individual members out of context than any real meaningful discussion. This is quite obvious. I am all for a good discussion, but she brings nothing new to the table here.

mibi i was trying to do a clever play on the word thread, but like most of my efforts at humour it obviously bombed.

no I really liked that line. It took me a while to get, but its quite clever actually, well done. I didn't mention it because I couldnt top it.

[wicked]

Isn't that knock down drag out...!?!

C.

heehee... yes! It's still early!

[mibi]

Isn't that knock down drag out...!?!

C.

heehee... yes! It's still early!

stay on topic!

or I will be forced to start a new thread to continue this discussion!

[wicked]

Sure. Head to the clubhouse for that!

[gimil]

It's called staying on topic within a map thread mibi. To quote you, "get used to it".

Yes Andy, map makers have to have a thick skin, but the people here making comments need to learn how to give constructive advice without bashing the map and putting the map maker on the defensive. If everyone was just a bit more positive, then maybe there wouldn't be knockout drag-down fights over maps and everyone would be more productive and maps would progress.

evidently how the process currently works is doing a good job. More and more maps are being quenched while still maintaining the minimum standard that is expected. So your critisism that were less productive is wrong.

[RjBeals]

stay on topic!

or I will be forced to start a new thread to continue this discussion!

I love reading your posts mibi. I think you have a crush on wicked..

[gimil]

stay on topic!

or I will be forced to start a new thread to continue this discussion!

I love reading your posts mibi. I think you have a crush on wicked..

lol mibi is the typical playground tease.

[Elijah S]

It's called staying on topic within a map thread mibi. To quote you, "get used to it".

Yes Andy, map makers have to have a thick skin, but the people here making comments need to learn how to give constructive advice without bashing the map and putting the map maker on the defensive. If everyone was just a bit more positive, then maybe there wouldn't be knockout drag-down fights over maps and everyone would be more productive and maps would progress.

AMEN!
And just to add to this, the main critics of Tisha's map and my American Civil War map are other mapmakers who feel their current projects should've reached FF before ours.

New mapmakers, while perhaps still learning the ropes, IMO should be encouraged and supported by longtime foundry members, otherwise CC will wind up with 80 maps whose only real differences will be the title and names of the territories.

Another thing is to remember is that one person's opinion does not equate a consensus for the entire CC community... There are several maps I don't play because I don't personnally like the graphics or gameplay, but I fully respect the fact that there are many who enjoy those maps.

It comes down to critiques being presented in a positive, lets move forward manner, instead of phrased in a way that can only be construed as demeaning to the individual who's trying their best to develop a great map.
In short, some people just need to learn to use a sense of decorum and degree of respect.

[Gnome]

AMEN!
And just to add to this, the main critics of Tisha's map and my American Civil War map are other mapmakers who feel their current projects should've reached FF before ours.

Alright you still don't get it...

[Tisha]

It comes down to critiques being presented in a positive, lets move forward manner, instead of phrased in a way that can only be construed as demeaning to the individual who's trying their best to develop a great map.
In short, some people just need to learn to use a sense of decorum and degree of respect.

exactly Elijah.. me hearing that my map doesn't belong in final forge, or that it doesn't appeal to that one person, or this persons not going to play it... does not help me at all.

[wicked]

It comes down to critiques being presented in a positive, lets move forward manner, instead of phrased in a way that can only be construed as demeaning to the individual who's trying their best to develop a great map.

Thank you Elijah. Could not have said it any better myself. Perhaps we need a "no map-bashing" clause in the foundry process? After all, bashing of any kind is only allowed on CC in the Flame Wars. If you want to bash a map, take it there. And to be clear, bashing is "this map sucks, no one in their right mind would play it" and "this piece of crap doesn't belong in FF."

Just as the CC staff listens to what the newbies have to say about their "first time" experience on the site, so should the map foundry listen to feedback from the new map makers, just as the new map makers should listen to feedback about their maps.

Hmm... a kindler, gentler map foundry? Perhaps then we wouldn't have so many abandoned maps or run-off cartographers.

[mibi]

It comes down to critiques being presented in a positive, lets move forward manner, instead of phrased in a way that can only be construed as demeaning to the individual who's trying their best to develop a great map.

Thank you Elijah. Could not have said it any better myself. Perhaps we need a "no map-bashing" clause in the foundry process? After all, bashing of any kind is only allowed on CC in the Flame Wars. If you want to bash a map, take it there. And to be clear, bashing is "this map sucks, no one in their right mind would play it" and "this piece of crap doesn't belong in FF."

Just as the CC staff listens to what the newbies have to say about their "first time" experience on the site, so should the map foundry listen to feedback from the new map makers, just as the new map makers should listen to feedback about their maps.

Hmm... a kindler, gentler map foundry? Perhaps then we wouldn't have so many abandoned maps or run-off cartographers.

um.... excuse me... where is all this "map-bashing" people are talking about, because there was none in the Puget thread. Did anyone say "this map sucks" or call it a "piece of crap"? I don' think so. What I read was people giving the map some honest and blunt criticism and a cartographer and her husband flying off the handle accusing people of being jealous that there map wasn't in the forge. wtf is that about? It's the 'newbies' in this situation who were out of line and could not handle the influx of late but deserving criticism.

I posted a lengthy diatribe which sums of the reasons why people are upset and why it doesn't belong in the forge, along with some very helpful advice for a new cartographer, and what do I get? Accused of going off topic my a mod who rarely visits the foundry and a "jealous much?" from the main antagonist in the whole thread, Tishas husband.

So all this talking about newbie bashing is straight bull. We even have a new map maker above, Elijah claim that people are upset because his map is in the FF and others are not. um... wtf? Then he goes on to suggest that people need to use a 'sense of decorum degree of respect'. A new map maker and a lost mod then quote the last part like it's some pearl of wisdom.

That, in a nut shell is why this whole thread is a stinking pile of shit.

[oaktown]

...this whole thread is a stinking pile of shit.

I don't know about the rest of what you said, but I definitely agree with the last part.

(Please note the smiley face - I'm trying to keep this friendly.)

I write this from the point of view of a mapmaker who quenched two maps, both of which have received criticism from some circles:

It is often difficult not to be sensitive when it comes to foundry work. Once you have poured weeks or months of free time into a project it becomes personal, and sometimes it is difficult not to take things personally.

Having just read the last few pages of the Puget map I can't see that anybody is at fault. The current concerns and criticisms are reasonable, and I don't blame anybody for making them... though tone could be improved. Tisha and Wicked are both very close to the project and have a lot invested in it, so I don't blame them for taking it personally when they feel they are being attacked. And I can see how a mapmaker who has been at his project for longer than Elijah or Tisha may feel that his project is just as deserving, even if others may not agree.

Are Civil War and Puget worthy of Final Forge? Sure, why not. It's a subjective call - the requirements aren't etched in stone anywhere. That doesn't mean they are final, it just means they are on the road to completion. And some maps spend months in FF (which is frustrating, but often necessary) while others are ready in two weeks.

So let's bury this stinking pile of shit and get back to making good maps better, eh?

Next person to post here is a rotten egg.

[Telvannia]

Next person to post here is a rotten egg.

damn i always fall for that. Ok...

...Starting from.....


....NOW

[yeti_c]

I think there are 2 problems in this forum...

a) Mapmakers love their maps...

b) Writing criticism is by it's very nature negative...

So what do we do about it?

a) Nothing - If a Mapmaker isn't loving his or her map then they should leave it and try something else...

b) This is the tricky one - sometimes it's not very easy to write criticism without being negative especially in the impersonal form of a forum post... it's like email - all you can see is the written word... You can't see the tongue in the cheek or the grin or the concerned face... Sometimes I read messages on here and I think - f*ck off wanker... then I'll read the same message later or the next day and think - actually he's got a point... part of this might be the mood I'm in, the speed I read the message or what I had for breakfast - so in conclusion - f*ck off wanker - no I mean er... sometimes the first time you read something and it makes you angry... think about it - read it again and you might read it differently...

C.

PS Tel - wipe that egg off your face.