American citizens' distrust of U.S. Police/Gov't

[Ditocoaf]

Interesting topic brought up in another thread; I agree with DM that it warrants a thread of it's own. Here's the posts that spawned this, with a bit of editing to try to start this thread out in the right direction.

The problem with DM's solution is an inherent mistrust of the government. While i was considering the subject matter of this thread, i realized a depressing truth - cops have done me far more harm in my life than thugs. Not only that, but i see more theft and violent crimes committed by our government than i do by street criminals.

I don't care what kind of plan they institute to [other thread's issue] - i trust neither their honesty or their capability to implement something of such magnitude without fucking it sideways. [other thread's issue] to federal wankers? * * Homey the Clown voiceover * * i don't think so.


Honibaz

Again, sensible stuff from the B.K.

The problem with DM's solution is an inherent mistrust of the government.

I think this is one for another thread, but this severe distrust of the police is something which seems to be endemic within the USA. I'm not saying that it's unfounded, but it's another cultural difference that seems to divide us Euros and you Americans. I mean, I'm not saying all Euros 100% trust 100% of the police, but the levels of distrust and dislike seem to be far more widespread and intense over in the New World.

Anyway, tangent over... but it's something I really think warrants a thread of its own.

I don't care what kind of plan they institute to [other thread's issue] America - i trust neither their honesty or their capability to implement something of such magnitude without fucking it sideways.

Well there we go... until your government puts itself in a position where it has gained the required levels of trust from you all, then I suppose a disarmament program can't be effectively rolled out.

That's not to say that I think [other thread's issue] wouldn't be the best thing for the USA, just that perhaps you aren't in a position where you and your administrators are ready to go about putting the wheels in motion. In other words, there's some other fairly pressing issues which US Society needs to work out before [other thread's issue] can be addressed.


PS. Please don't take that as a patronising "well the USA has a worse govt than we do" put-down, because that's really not how I mean it. I'm not beginning to deny that we Euros have our own set of equally serious (though different) "Citizens Vs State" issues, and they stop us making progress in all manner of other areas.

So... what do you think?

[gdeangel]

There is a good line in one of the Seventh Son books. I forget the exact quote, but the idea is that the people who have the integrity and ability to be fair and play by the rules are not interested in being the sherrif. And usually the person who does want the job is in fact the one person who shouldn't be trusted with it.

Definitely not true in all cases. But if you don't recruit and train correctly, and break the culture of "us vs. them" which exists in some police departments, then it can become more widespread.

[Juan_Bottom]

0 trust for cops. They lied to me and everyone that I know. They literally invented fake evidence, and then went to my work, my girlfriends house, and all of my family to fish for confessions. And that was after I turned myself in (they let me go!). Hell I didn't even know I had committed a crime. I lost my career and everything because of them. Then I overheard the State's Attorney saying that he was dragging out the case(2 yrs in court with a guilty plea, confession and everything) to drag me into bankruptcy because they couldn't sue me or slap me with fines. Plus, he switched the pictures from the ones I was shown were "evidence" with slightly different ones in court. They lied to the 'victims' too and said I was lieing and not cooperating. Since when is a confession not cooperating? I should mention that I was facing 30 years PRISON time, 1 year in county, and 10,000 in fines, for hit and run. The State's Attorny was best friends with the 'victims.'
Now I'm on prohibation without a license and can't look for work outside of my county. Did I mention I live on county Divide road? In the boonies? 20 minutes away from Wisconsin and Iowa? I'm stuck here....

And as far as the state government goes.... I live in IL..... one of the most corrupted states in the Union. In fact, we even have the most divisions of government in the whole country. And a astronomical deficit. To help pay for it, they are closing state parks that are all away from Chicago. They are also trying to hold an 'emergancy' meeting without the Governer to close out many of his new programs, and remove loads of government jobs and divisions. All will have to be voter approved though.

And the Federal government? Pfft. I used to work as an Escrow Agent and I assure you, they knew that our nation would swiftly dive into a recession. Personally I think many large companies are transferring their wealth to other nations through bills like NAFTA, in order to avoid a collapsing economy.
One thing for certain, they don't care about us.


Oh and don't even get me started on the Electoral College giving the Presidency to Bush even though Gore won the General Election. Or how the Media somehow works for the government.

This nation needs a revolution or something.

[Ditocoaf]

On our college campus, students come in with a default opinion of "the campo [campus police] are the enemy." They soon realize that the campus safety officers actually are here for our safety. There's this amazing phenomenon where the campo don't see their job as being to "catch" us so we can be "punished"... they see it as their job to watch out for us if we're in trouble. So they'll write up a student if they're caught drinking or smoking pot, because it's part of their job. But the way they treat us, it's obvious that it isn't their goal. Sometimes, it'll be obvious that a student is high or drunk, but they'll leave us be if we seem safe. If you get written up (I did on my first weekend here, in what appears to be a "teach the freshmen not to be so oblivious" lesson), you aren't "punished" right away... if you seem clueless, they'll have you take a class. If you offend repeatedly, they'll get a bit harsher. If it looks like you're actually putting yourself in danger, then they'll get more dramatic to protect you. By now, my circle of friends knows most of the "campo" by first name, due to friendly discussion.

Unfortunately, this model isn't even fathomable on a national scale, because laws are laws, whereas at this college rules are actually lessons. Where things get messy is when cops see their goal as getting people into trouble... There's catching criminals, then there's trying to make criminals out of as many people as possible.

[b.k. barunt]

I made a sarcastic comment in front of a friend of mine's brother, who is a cop, and he responded by saying that he knew i had "no respect for the law". I replied that i had a lot more respect for it than he did, in that i could not break it with impunity like him and his fellow cops.

Any time a cop goes over the speed limit without his lights flashing, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop stops someone just to check them out, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop accepts a free meal at a restaurant (or free donuts), he is breaking the law.

And that's just the common every day infractions that honest cops commit. I won't even bother to go into the rat nest itself. Cops have no respect for the law itself - they see themselves as the law.

It's definitely worse down here in the south, and New Orleans has the most crooked cops in the country - hell, during Katrina the majority of those who stayed in the city were fucking looters. They had a gang of cops who looted high class neighborhoods, and had their headquarters in a French Quarter hotel where they divided up the goodies, and that's only the ones who got caught. Hell i could write a book on this shit.


Honibaz

[muy_thaiguy]

I live in probably one of the most conservative states in the union. And not just along party affiliations (2 in 3 people are Republican) but also highly independent. And in 1988 or 89, Wyoming was the last state in the union to change the legal drinking age from 19 to 21. The reason why was because of a little thing that had to do with Federal money, Wyoming highways, and so on. Let's just say when it passed, many looked on it as black mail.

[b.k. barunt]

Same reason i have to wear a damn sweatbucket on my head when i ride. Feds hate any kind of freedom - it scares the f*ck out of them.


Honibaz

[cutebastard71]

I made a sarcastic comment in front of a friend of mine's brother, who is a cop, and he responded by saying that he knew i had "no respect for the law". I replied that i had a lot more respect for it than he did, in that i could not break it with impunity like him and his fellow cops.

Any time a cop goes over the speed limit without his lights flashing, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop stops someone just to check them out, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop accepts a free meal at a restaurant (or free donuts), he is breaking the law.

And that's just the common every day infractions that honest cops commit. I won't even bother to go into the rat nest itself. Cops have no respect for the law itself - they see themselves as the law.

It's definitely worse down here in the south, and New Orleans has the most crooked cops in the country - hell, during Katrina the majority of those who stayed in the city were fucking looters. They had a gang of cops who looted high class neighborhoods, and had their headquarters in a French Quarter hotel where they divided up the goodies, and that's only the ones who got caught. Hell i could write a book on this shit.


Honibaz

I agree with 1 and 3 but why would 2 be breaking the law? I mean I am not sure what the actual law in USA (or is it state dependent?) is (and I know there is nothing like national identity card in US) but many countries in Western Europe actually have laws that allow police to ask for some type of identification and to check who you are. Not to mention that if they have a "reason" for suspicion they can always stop/ask you and they can easily claim that something was suspicious. So even if such law exists they can always find justification that you represented possible threat to public safety. Therefore such law in practice would be useless.

[b.k. barunt]

According to our much raped constitution, "Unlawful Search or Seizure" is forbidden. There has to be probable cause. Now i realize that a cop can pull you over for a busted tail light, or some other bullshit, but when they don't even bother to come up with such lame ass excuses, it just shows their contempt for the law they are supposed to uphold.

If you are white, and go into a black neighborhood down here, you will be stopped and at least questioned. One cop told me on one such occasion that "there's only one reason a white man comes into a black neighborhood" (drugs). At the time i was supervising 2 Americorps literacy teams in 2 elementary schools of that neighborhood.

This is not Nazi Germany, and we still have rights, but Bush and his "Patriot Act" are still whittling them down. "Due Process" is fast becoming a thing of the past, and it's getting to the point where the true patriots will start shooting cops.


Honibaz

[black elk speaks]

I made a sarcastic comment in front of a friend of mine's brother, who is a cop, and he responded by saying that he knew i had "no respect for the law". I replied that i had a lot more respect for it than he did, in that i could not break it with impunity like him and his fellow cops.

Any time a cop goes over the speed limit without his lights flashing, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop stops someone just to check them out, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop accepts a free meal at a restaurant (or free donuts), he is breaking the law.

And that's just the common every day infractions that honest cops commit. I won't even bother to go into the rat nest itself. Cops have no respect for the law itself - they see themselves as the law.

It's definitely worse down here in the south, and New Orleans has the most crooked cops in the country - hell, during Katrina the majority of those who stayed in the city were fucking looters. They had a gang of cops who looted high class neighborhoods, and had their headquarters in a French Quarter hotel where they divided up the goodies, and that's only the ones who got caught. Hell i could write a book on this shit.


Honibaz

I think it was you in another thread that said something to the effect of "if I can skirt the rules and get away with something 9 out of 10 times, i will"

Not all cops are bad, in fact, I believe that they are mostly good and honest people. I think that a few are corrupt when they become police or they become corrupt over time, dealing largely with the scum of our society.

Juan, did you do it, did you commit a hit and run?

[b.k. barunt]

I made a sarcastic comment in front of a friend of mine's brother, who is a cop, and he responded by saying that he knew i had "no respect for the law". I replied that i had a lot more respect for it than he did, in that i could not break it with impunity like him and his fellow cops.

Any time a cop goes over the speed limit without his lights flashing, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop stops someone just to check them out, he is breaking the law.

Any time a cop accepts a free meal at a restaurant (or free donuts), he is breaking the law.

And that's just the common every day infractions that honest cops commit. I won't even bother to go into the rat nest itself. Cops have no respect for the law itself - they see themselves as the law.

It's definitely worse down here in the south, and New Orleans has the most crooked cops in the country - hell, during Katrina the majority of those who stayed in the city were fucking looters. They had a gang of cops who looted high class neighborhoods, and had their headquarters in a French Quarter hotel where they divided up the goodies, and that's only the ones who got caught. Hell i could write a book on this shit.


Honibaz

I think it was you in another thread that said something to the effect of "if I can skirt the rules and get away with something 9 out of 10 times, i will"

Not all cops are bad, in fact, I believe that they are mostly good and honest people. I think that a few are corrupt when they become police or they become corrupt over time, dealing largely with the scum of our society.

Juan, did you do it, did you commit a hit and run?

In making a point about the need for consistency in punitive action for violent crimes, i said that "as a child, if i knew i had 9 out of 10 chances of getting punished, i'd go for the outside chance". Great job of backassward quoting, not to mention taking it out of context.

All cops that i have known have less respect for the law than i do, because they can break it with impunity. To blame a cop's corruption on their "having to deal with the scum of our society" is pretty lame. All cops that i have known, including those who are not "corrupt" feel that they are the law. This is a misconception that directs their bullying behavior - it's a turf war to them. Cops are not the law - they are supposed to enforce the law. Since they feel that they are the law, it doesn't bother them to break it in order to accomplish their goals.

By the way, "not all cops are bad" is a pretty fucking lame ass cliche.


Honibaz

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan, did you do it, did you commit a hit and run?

Yes, the short story is that I was working out of state, and was driving home for five hours in my brand-new-full-size Ford Econoline Van. I hit some bycyclist with my passanger mirror a few miles from my house on a country road. I thought I hit a road sign and was anxious to get home. So I didn't stop and check(not like I was gonna save the mirror though, right?). Anyway, a sherriff came to my house a couple hours later, and I talked with him, but he alleged that I didn't do it. And that the accident happened earlier in the week, so they were looking for someone else. I breathed a sigh of relief, and then suddenly two weeks later my van was towed. I went and talked to the detectives. And that was when they started making up evidence and interviewing everyone. Cause I told them that I did it.

[black elk speaks]

so I am confused then, you did do it? what kind of evidence did they make up?

[dewey316]

All cops that i have known have less respect for the law than i do, because they can break it with impunity. To blame a cop's corruption on their "having to deal with the scum of our society" is pretty lame. All cops that i have known, including those who are not "corrupt" feel that they are the law. This is a misconception that directs their bullying behavior - it's a turf war to them. Cops are not the law - they are supposed to enforce the law. Since they feel that they are the law, it doesn't bother them to break it in order to accomplish their goals.

Here is the catch. Those of us who go around obeying the law, our only interaction with the police is one that could be considered "bad". I am not fan of many police, and have had my fair share of very bad interactions and dealings. But that is the thing, if you are doing your own thing, obeying the law, then you have zero interaction with the police officers who are truely doing their job to protect and serve.

As to the a general distrust of law enforcement in the US. I think there is a lot of distrust for the reason above. I would also go as far as to say, that there is even more of a disconnect than just that between the US and Europe. Many people in the US, think that their personal safety and well being are first and foremost their own responsibility. This is why there are a lot of people who are agains a lot of universal care type things, this is why the 2nd ammendment is upheld, etc. We view the role of what the government should be doing differently than many people in Europe that I have spoken with. It is a much larger difference than just the trust/distrust of the police. It goes all the way down to the very basic roles of government, and who's job it is to look out for us.

[Juan_Bottom]

so I am confused then, you did do it? what kind of evidence did they make up?

Bear in mind that there was a lot, mostly lies. This is because they drug it out for so long.

Fake debri for starters. They said that I left tape(lens repair tape) and a headlight at the scene. Which didn't happen. They also said that I was "possably" drunk/high when they talked to me. I don't drink or do drugs, and never have. In fact I had just left work. I had to get a statement from my former pastor before the court would even take my word/the word of everyone I know over the officers. But after that, the judge pulled it all apart.
The police said I lied about where I was, and at what time(I told them I got off work an hour earlier than I did, which was an honest mistake, I didn't lie about any events and the judge caught them).
They had five witnessess, four of which agreed about what happened, and they used the fifth witnesses statements in court... ignoring the others(judge caught it). The statement they used said I was speeding, swerved, then stopped suddenly. Then I floored it. But the other four people said I never slowed down or anything. Just kept driving down the road doing 50. They also said that the bycyclist was riding in the middle of the lane, and not moving for traffic. one of them even knew the guy.
The police said that I refused to co-operate, which put the states attorney at a loss to explain how he had a signed confession(judge caught it). They also tampered with the crime scene, and took photos (they moved the bycycle onto the road). Then they switched the real photos with the fake photos during my sentencing, and had a cop lie on the stand saying that was the scene when he got there. To say that I must have seen the bike in the middle of the road(judge caught it, because the copys he had showes the bike in the ditch in tall grass).
The Detectives told my girlfriend's parents that the guy was taken by helicopter to a hospital, and that he might not make it through the night(turned he was fine).
The Attorney used a list of breathing troubles and pains that the guy has been suffering from too. Then I find out that the guy was fine from the crash, but he found out he has lung cancer and has been getting treated for it(judge again).

Really, now that I think about it, the judge did more for me than my lawyer.
To top it all off, I found out that my attorny was giving them info the whole time too.