INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[TX AG 90]

OK,

Can those of you who have been scum before answer this question.

Does mafia have to choose between personal night actions and night killings? In other words, maybe nobody was killed N2, because they were performing other actions.

OR can scum do a personal night actions AND vote on a night killing? Is there only one member who is actually the killer or is it a group thing?

[Sirius Kase]

You asserted that a passive poisoner existed and then used that as sole justification for demanding somebody else claim, how is this anything but rolefishing?

Maybe I've got too narrow a definition of rolefishing. All I cared about was who they visited, not why. How is this role fishing?

What is rolefishing and why is it bad?

[TX AG 90]

About the poisoner: If my guess is correct, blacky wasn't actually the initial target of the poisoner D1 and therefore it wouldn't be coming from jfm. I'd have loved to have Mets confirm the wording about the poisoning before blacky to make sure we're talking about the same poisoner and mets isn't just making stuff up.

I can share more language from my night action result that blacky may be able to confirm, depending on what happened to him: I was told that I "messed with the wrong prey," and that the pain I experienced was a "sharp burning pain."

Mets,

Do you believe that your prey that night (the passive poisoner) is scum or town?

[Metsfanmax]

Mets, Blacky was begging for someone to heal him. You have been more composed for someone who may die tonight; is it just your personality?

It is not in my nature to beg for help. I do hope that I am healed tonight.

OK,

Can those of you who have been scum before answer this question.

Does mafia have to choose between personal night actions and night killings? In other words, maybe nobody was killed N2, because they were performing other actions.

OR can scum do a personal night actions AND vote on a night killing? Is there only one member who is actually the killer or is it a group thing?

Most of the time, the night kill (when it exists) is a collective action chosen by the group. And again most of the time, one of the particular players is selected to "actually" perform the kill -- if there wasn't a particular player assigned to it, it would be impossible for town to roleblock or investigate the killing action effectively.

About the poisoner: If my guess is correct, blacky wasn't actually the initial target of the poisoner D1 and therefore it wouldn't be coming from jfm. I'd have loved to have Mets confirm the wording about the poisoning before blacky to make sure we're talking about the same poisoner and mets isn't just making stuff up.

I can share more language from my night action result that blacky may be able to confirm, depending on what happened to him: I was told that I "messed with the wrong prey," and that the pain I experienced was a "sharp burning pain."

Mets,

Do you believe that your prey that night (the passive poisoner) is scum or town?

Leaning third party right now. Between town and scum, slightly more likely to be town.

[chapcrap]

If Mets is telling the truth, why only one poisoning on N1? jfm poisoned blacky. It wasn't passive.

...because no one visited the passive poisoner on N1?

There are so many different ways to kill someone, and we're supposed to believe that poisoner is being used twice and coincidentally only once N1 and N2 when the N1 poisoning was already spoken for? Sure, many marine animals can poison, but many more use other methods of killing. Poisoning is not a super common skill.

No, I wasn't commenting on specifically whether you should believe that there are multiple poisoners in this game. I was answering the narrow question you posed: if we do assume two poisoners, how do we explain that there was only one poisoning on N1 and not two? And I was saying that the answer was obvious.

You quoted a narrow portion of my post(s). See here: viewtopic.php?f=213&t=229849&start=1050#p5094216 So, you tried to minimize it. Scummier.

If we go on the premise that there is a passive poisoner and jfm was a poisoner, wouldn't it stand to reason that there are multiple poison healers? Do they both have to be town or could scum have a healer?

I'm just trying to pick at the only threads I can. I have a feeling once the 1st domino falls, the entire scum structure will come tumbling down.

Yeah, I'm not going on that premise. It makes no sense.

[Metsfanmax]

If Mets is telling the truth, why only one poisoning on N1? jfm poisoned blacky. It wasn't passive.

...because no one visited the passive poisoner on N1?

There are so many different ways to kill someone, and we're supposed to believe that poisoner is being used twice and coincidentally only once N1 and N2 when the N1 poisoning was already spoken for? Sure, many marine animals can poison, but many more use other methods of killing. Poisoning is not a super common skill.

No, I wasn't commenting on specifically whether you should believe that there are multiple poisoners in this game. I was answering the narrow question you posed: if we do assume two poisoners, how do we explain that there was only one poisoning on N1 and not two? And I was saying that the answer was obvious.

You quoted a narrow portion of my post(s). See here: viewtopic.php?f=213&t=229849&start=1050#p5094216 So, you tried to minimize it. Scummier.

What are you talking about? The quote I am actually responding to is the entirety of the post it came from. I didn't quote at all your earlier post and wasn't even responding to it. With that being said, the earlier post contains exactly the same logical fallacy.

The point is that you said if I am telling the truth, then why was there only one poisoning on N1? In the world where I am telling the truth, there is at least a passive poisoner, in addition to the possibility of jfm being a poisoner that poisoned blacky. And a perfectly sane and reasonable explanation for why -- in that world -- only one person got poisoned on N1 is that no one visited the passive poisoner on that night. We don't know for sure what actually happened, sure. But this scenario is plausible enough that you absolutely cannot be throwing around the reasoning that only one poisoning on N1 means my story makes no sense. How hard is it for you to understand that a passive poisoner only poisons someone who visits them?

[Metsfanmax]

The remainder of your argument, chap, is essentially "I, chapcrap, personally cannot fathom that this game has multiple poisoners." OK, whatever, fine, you can believe that if you want to. This argument is as convincing as it sounds.

[Sirius Kase]

Mets, Blacky was begging for someone to heal him. You have been more composed for someone who may die tonight; is it just your personality?

It is not in my nature to beg for help. I do hope that I am healed tonight.
Hopes and Prayers. Where I come from, people pray but they also take action, even if it is only seek help. Asking for help is not begging. It's normal.

OK,

Can those of you who have been scum before answer this question. Not me, but I do have thoughts.

Does mafia have to choose between personal night actions and night killings? In other words, maybe nobody was killed N2, because they were performing other actions. That might explain the low casualty rate. But, what night action would be preferable to killing a townie?

OR can scum do a personal night actions AND vote on a night killing? Is there only one member who is actually the killer or is it a group thing?

Most of the time, the night kill (when it exists) is a collective action chosen by the group. And again most of the time, one of the particular players is selected to "actually" perform the kill -- if there wasn't a particular player assigned to it, it would be impossible for town to roleblock or investigate the killing action effectively.

This is certainly a low information game. So far, all information directly input to the entire group is from the two lynches. We have no information from night killings because no one has died. All the rest, is inferred from behavior. Since role PM's are secret, we have no way to know who is lying. Most people here appear to be smart enough not to contradict themselves. So, unless you have an investigative PR, you can't trust anyone but yourself. Or, scum if you are one.

Something I've noticed is that it's mostly the newbies trying to solve this problem with honest discussion. The more experienced players rarely speak up. When they do, they are so guarded that they sound dishonest. That indicates that the best strategy is not to talk. I tried brainstorming, suggesting some thoughts, but that got us nowhere. I was accused of rambling, so I won't try that again.

So, only one more brainstorm. If Mafia isn't killing, maybe they can't. Maybe we are supposed to spend some time getting to know each other. Maybe killing is a night action that they will acquire after they go for their favorite food or accomplish some other goal.

This is obviously a game where patience is key. Let's give the investigators time to reveal enough for us to work with. Doctors should consider allowing victims to die, unless an investigator can make a case to heal. Or, we can lynch faster, to give the moderator a chance to insert more scenes. But, fast lynches are not normally to towns advantage. So, we need to figure out who to trust and follow their guidance.

My natural tendency is to want to make things happen. So, it seems more natural to me for a poison victim to ask for help and a doctor to render aid. But, some people would rather quietly die with dignity. I get that, but it's not rational. Eventually, you did speak up and admit to being poisoned, but it was so unnatural, it's hard to believe. The rationale is that you aren't poisoned, but just said that so you wouldn't be lynched.

VOTE Metsfanmax

There, now maybe something will happen.

[Sirius Kase]

Mets, nothing personal, just a poke to the group. I've been checking this thread several times a day and it's dead. I'll keep checking and I'll certainly rethink my vote if someone other than Mets will vouch for him.

[TX AG 90]

Mets, nothing personal, just a poke to the group. I've been checking this thread several times a day and it's dead. I'll keep checking and I'll certainly rethink my vote if someone other than Mets will vouch for him.

I don't know if Mets is Town or Scum, but I certainly believe he was poisoned. The wording of what he claims to have received from Razor is fairly detailed and seems in line with other blurbs from the Mods.

I'd really like to hear Blacky's wording on his poisoning to compare and contrast.

[Metsfanmax]

Hopes and Prayers. Where I come from, people pray but they also take action, even if it is only seek help. Asking for help is not begging. It's normal.
...
My natural tendency is to want to make things happen. So, it seems more natural to me for a poison victim to ask for help and a doctor to render aid. But, some people would rather quietly die with dignity. I get that, but it's not rational. Eventually, you did speak up and admit to being poisoned, but it was so unnatural, it's hard to believe. The rationale is that you aren't poisoned, but just said that so you wouldn't be lynched.

I thought it was so incredibly obvious that it didn't even bear mentioning that if someone has a healing power and thinks i'm town, they should heal me. If they don't think I'm town, they won't. Your statement is tantamount to accusing other players of being too stupid to understand this basic issue, which is not how I feel.

[Tobikera]

Ahem....it would be nice to get a vote count.

I've been thinking about the no nightkill results. I gave thought to the notion that there were no scum, just masons who recruit someone each night. But, I discarded that thought, because of the totality of all the mod has said since the opening scene, and the presence, active or passive, of a poisoner. It could be that one of the town has a blocking power, got lucky the first night by blocking the mafia player who was going to carry out the hit, and repeated the second night. This assumes the mafia had the same person do the attack. Under the fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice me law, mafia should change players during N3.

Concerning the notion espoused earlier that this game could represent marine vs freshwater fish (which I even suggested very early in the game in a way, but then demurred), I would note that I am a squid (an invertebrate in the Phylum Cephalpoda, Class Mollusca, and def. marine and town) and Pershy was a leech (was it marine? Can't remember), and as shown town. The only fish we know about so far, correct me if I am wrong, is jfm's freshwater angel fish. Anyway, as I recall someone else canned the marine vs freshwater fish angle, and I just wanted to hold up the honor or us invertebrates.

[TX AG 90]

If we go on the premise that there is a passive poisoner and jfm was a poisoner, wouldn't it stand to reason that there are multiple poison healers? Do they both have to be town or could scum have a healer?

I'm just trying to pick at the only threads I can. I have a feeling once the 1st domino falls, the entire scum structure will come tumbling down.

Yeah, I'm not going on that premise. It makes no sense.

Which premise are you negating? That jfm was a poisoner or that there is a passive poisoner (or both)?

[Sirius Kase]

Hopes and Prayers. Where I come from, people pray but they also take action, even if it is only seek help. Asking for help is not begging. It's normal.
...
My natural tendency is to want to make things happen. So, it seems more natural to me for a poison victim to ask for help and a doctor to render aid. But, some people would rather quietly die with dignity. I get that, but it's not rational. Eventually, you did speak up and admit to being poisoned, but it was so unnatural, it's hard to believe. The rationale is that you aren't poisoned, but just said that so you wouldn't be lynched.

I thought it was so incredibly obvious that it didn't even bear mentioning that if someone has a healing power and thinks i'm town, they should heal me. If they don't think I'm town, they won't. Your statement is tantamount to accusing other players of being too stupid to understand this basic issue, which is not how I feel.

You win. I'll wait for the vote count. If I'm the only one on you, I'll unvote. I'm just trying to motivate people.

[Sirius Kase]

It's just me and chapcrap voting for Mets. TX AG 90 appears confident that Mets has been poisoned. No one has indicated that he will be healed. I'm not ever sure it's possible for anyone, but scum, to know for sure if he's town.

This isn't meant to be a hostage situation. I'll unvote in a bit, before I retire for the night. I'd hate to sleep through something interesting. I'm a newbie, but I don't want to be a slow learner. I want to see the thought process you use in deciding who should die. I understand that Mets might die without a lynching. But, there are some things I don't understand. If we play strictly by probabilities, Mets is probably town. The exact same thing could be said for any of us. But, I might be missing something. There are scum tells, but aren't there also doctor tells and cop tells? If so, I don't know any.

Sometimes, I think I'm pushing a string and it doesn't matter. It's almost midnight, so I'll back away from my keyboard for awhile.

UNVOTE

[BuJaber]

Why can't we lynch dakky, seriously?
Apart from skoffin who is townreading everyone who pushed jfm (why would that be true?), who actually thinks dakky is town?

[Pikanchion]

What is rolefishing and why is it bad?

Stop skimming. I gave what will serve well enough as a definition and then explained why it was bad in relation to a specific instance of rolefishing very recently (see below). Top Google result is also a decent definition.

Second, that is still rolefishing. Pushing others to reveal things about their role if you do not suspect them is generally rolefishing, even if it is just the target of their actions. Think about the usefulness of this information if blacky365 had revealed it: for town, we might get a lead on a role that exists only by hypothesis currently, and which could be of any alignment; for scum, one can now infer the type of role blacky365 holds by the target of the action and blacky365's stated suspicions or lack thereof.

I understood that rolefishing was a scummy trait, but I guess not. All I'm trying to point out is that I was trying to get an understanding of WHO blacky targeted that night, but only if sharing that info didn't compromise him (if he is town).

Yes, and I told you exactly why that was more likely to help Mafia than Town. In what scenario would releasing that information not compromise blacky365 to some degree?

[Razorvich]

Apologies for the delay, went out last night with the family

[dakky21]

Why can't we lynch dakky, seriously?
Apart from skoffin who is townreading everyone who pushed jfm (why would that be true?), who actually thinks dakky is town?

You were on me almost all of the D2 and I'd say all of D3.

Now imagine a situation - I'm telling the truth about being Commuter, therefore a pro-town role which can't be targeted at night, I even said I'm a Hermit. Now continue imagining, you lynch me and everything what I say comes up to be true. Then your imagination should go forward and think why would a townie be so fierce on another townie, unless you are a scum and you know you can't kill me at night... so in your imagination you should know that lynching me and being so aggressive will get you lynched next. Maybe you want that, one town for one scum, but I suggest you rethink your stance if you are town.

If you continue to target me and ask questions like "Why can't we lynch dakky", I will really OMGUS vote you, because that really seems like an orchestrated trade-off, one scum for one town.

[chapcrap]

If we go on the premise that there is a passive poisoner and jfm was a poisoner, wouldn't it stand to reason that there are multiple poison healers? Do they both have to be town or could scum have a healer?

I'm just trying to pick at the only threads I can. I have a feeling once the 1st domino falls, the entire scum structure will come tumbling down.

Yeah, I'm not going on that premise. It makes no sense.

Which premise are you negating? That jfm was a poisoner or that there is a passive poisoner (or both)?

That there is a passive poisoner. No passive poisoning N1. Only thing that points to it is Mets claiming poisoning. He didn't claim in his first posts of the day and it just doesn't make sense logically. You said it made sense because of the wording of the mod's PM to Mets... that's a big eyeroll for me.

SK, are just voting and unvoting for no reason? What are you doing?

Apologies for the delay, went out last night with the family

You have my vote on two people. It's on Mets.

FP'd by dakky

[chapcrap]

Why can't we lynch dakky, seriously?
Apart from skoffin who is townreading everyone who pushed jfm (why would that be true?), who actually thinks dakky is town?

You were on me almost all of the D2 and I'd say all of D3.

Now imagine a situation - I'm telling the truth about being Commuter, therefore a pro-town role which can't be targeted at night, I even said I'm a Hermit. Now continue imagining, you lynch me and everything what I say comes up to be true. Then your imagination should go forward and think why would a townie be so fierce on another townie, unless you are a scum and you know you can't kill me at night... so in your imagination you should know that lynching me and being so aggressive will get you lynched next. Maybe you want that, one town for one scum, but I suggest you rethink your stance if you are town.

Are you saying you are commuter or hermit or both? Initially, you were claiming a doc type role on D1 and tried to get jfm lynched. Then, I thought you said commuter before and then you said it wasn't that, but it was hermit. Now it seems like you are saying it's both.

If you continue to target me and ask questions like "Why can't we lynch dakky", I will really OMGUS vote you, because that really seems like an orchestrated trade-off, one scum for one town.

One scum for one town is good for town... So, you aren't making a good argument.

[Metsfanmax]

That there is a passive poisoner. No passive poisoning N1. Only thing that points to it is Mets claiming poisoning. He didn't claim in his first posts of the day

Yes I did. My first post was at 10 AM when I was at work. I had the chance to chime in on something that was bothering me at the end of D2, then I had to take care of something at work. My second and third posts were at the same time, less than two hours later, and one of those two indicated that I was poisoned. (And I made it as a separate post just so it wouldn't get lost in the details of the post about jfm.) Day 3 is still going, 9 days later. Why the f*ck is everyone so concerned about 2 hours?

[dakky21]

Chap, you're skimming. I already said I am hermit but the role is very similar to a Commuter. I can't be targeted at night if I choose that option - it is the default of the role even if I don't send anything in. The other option I have is to ambush others and if successful, I learn their species... But then I'm not hidden and I'm not going to use that, like, ever. So yes as I said before I'm a Hermit, not a Commuter, but I'll continue to be a Commuter as thats a much more common role in mafia world than a Hermit (and actually I couldn't even find a description of that one).

[BuJaber]

Why can't we lynch dakky, seriously?
Apart from skoffin who is townreading everyone who pushed jfm (why would that be true?), who actually thinks dakky is town?

You were on me almost all of the D2 and I'd say all of D3.

Now imagine a situation - I'm telling the truth about being Commuter, therefore a pro-town role which can't be targeted at night, I even said I'm a Hermit. Now continue imagining, you lynch me and everything what I say comes up to be true. Then your imagination should go forward and think why would a townie be so fierce on another townie, unless you are a scum and you know you can't kill me at night... so in your imagination you should know that lynching me and being so aggressive will get you lynched next. Maybe you want that, one town for one scum, but I suggest you rethink your stance if you are town.

If you continue to target me and ask questions like "Why can't we lynch dakky", I will really OMGUS vote you, because that really seems like an orchestrated trade-off, one scum for one town.

D2 I was on Mets and then jfm.
D3 I was on Mets at first and now I'm focusing on you. I'm not going nack to mets for now while we get more clarity on this supposed poisoner.

For one, I don't think you're town.
Second, I don't even mind lynching town!you because you can't be targetted at night, meaning townies can't investigate you and you will never die at night. That makes you a horrible person to have alive at lylo.
Third I don't think I should be lynched if you flip town. It doesn't make me scum.

[Metsfanmax]

Chap, you're skimming. I already said I am hermit but the role is very similar to a Commuter. I can't be targeted at night if I choose that option - it is the default of the role even if I don't send anything in. The other option I have is to ambush others and if successful, I learn their species... But then I'm not hidden and I'm not going to use that, like, ever. So yes as I said before I'm a Hermit, not a Commuter, but I'll continue to be a Commuter as thats a much more common role in mafia world than a Hermit (and actually I couldn't even find a description of that one).

I support you being useless to town by refusing to use your investigative role. Carry on.