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Armandolas wrote:What is wrong with fog and "complicated maps"? Just because you dont know how to play them it doesn mean they are really complicated.
For me is a pleasure to play fog. Imo is much enjoyable than sunny.I Found boring to know allready where all the enemies are.People need to be more focused. Do calculations.Try to guess where oppo as deployed.Wich neutral did the guy take...etcSo i find it much more challenging .
In clan games, clans choose their maps to win the games. You cant force a clan to choose some maps or settings just to make sure u have more chances to win
Mr Changsha wrote:
I don't like fog because it introduces too much risk. It makes me upset.
iAmCaffeine wrote:You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.
BigBallinStalin wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.
Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.
To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.
Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.
Mr Changsha wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.
Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.
There is a lot of truth to this BBS!
But I wonder if you are entirely comfortable (in terms of the overall state of the game) with a clan playing 100% of their games in the fog when about 39% of total team games are played sunny.
Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
However, if we consider the first 20 games LEGION have sent us in our challenge 19 out of 20 (95%) of those games are foggy. I'm not picking on LEGION btw, I would think this is pretty standard stuff.
So roughly 46% of non tournament\clan team games on this site are actually played sunny, but conservatively I would say 80% of clan games are played foggy. Now I don't have anything against foggy games, but I think the difference between clan and non-clan games on this point is very interesting. Combined with clans also choosing complicated or obscure maps with further unusual settings, then we begin to approach clan strategy number 1:To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.
I'm not saying clans get that with every game and war, but I think it is what most are aiming for. Btw, I consider foggy team games on otherwise standard settings and typical maps to be as valid as anything else we play. My issue is with the combination of fog and exploiting the vast number of maps we now have and the ridiculous number of settings to win games through taking advantage of obscurity.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:You also have to consider that lots of these teams have basically mastered the maps so strategy certainly comes into it. ToG, for example, is totally different without fog.
Well, a lot of people do use fog to give them an extra advantage--only in terms of knowledge of the map (and not strategy). Of course, one strategy is using Fog, but Mr C doesn't like that strategy. It rattles his feeble brain; he can't even remember his own name sometimes. His mind is foggy enough. Poor chap.
There is a lot of truth to this BBS!
But I wonder if you are entirely comfortable (in terms of the overall state of the game) with a clan playing 100% of their games in the fog when about 39% of total team games are played sunny.
Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
However, if we consider the first 20 games LEGION have sent us in our challenge 19 out of 20 (95%) of those games are foggy. I'm not picking on LEGION btw, I would think this is pretty standard stuff.
So roughly 46% of non tournament\clan team games on this site are actually played sunny, but conservatively I would say 80% of clan games are played foggy. Now I don't have anything against foggy games, but I think the difference between clan and non-clan games on this point is very interesting. Combined with clans also choosing complicated or obscure maps with further unusual settings, then we begin to approach clan strategy number 1:To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.
I'm not saying clans get that with every game and war, but I think it is what most are aiming for. Btw, I consider foggy team games on otherwise standard settings and typical maps to be as valid as anything else we play. My issue is with the combination of fog and exploiting the vast number of maps we now have and the ridiculous number of settings to win games through taking advantage of obscurity.
Sure, it's a bit disconcerting, and it does obscure our ability to separate Great Strategists from Great Exploiters.
Most people will reject having to play more sunny clan games because they want to avoid costs (and they're afraid). The opening move requires more intensive study; the enemy can see all possible mistakes you've made; and the enemy can more easily follow the map.
Then again the sunny-siders are scared about more risk. "What lurks behind those shadows? Is he building there for the counterattack, or is he building over there to secure that bonus?" Sweat pours from the sunny-sider's brow as uncertainty wreaks his feeble mind.
Why do I play foggy games? Only for the sheer joy of giving people like Mr C headaches.
Mr Changsha wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.
Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.
But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.
Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy
Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?
That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)
iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.
Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.
But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.
Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy
Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?
That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)
I disagree. In clan games you obviously want to field the strongest home roster possible, whilst sharing the love amongst your clan members. However, the majority play competitively in or out of clan wars and would play the same maps and settings public or not.
If you can find cases of people playing on a map without fog in public games and then with fog in clan wars then prove me wrong, but I doubt there will be many results.
In clan games you obviously want to field the strongest home roster possible
To have a contest with the competitive edge of playing a blind man at ping pong.
loutil wrote:I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.
BigBallinStalin wrote:loutil wrote:I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.
That's because you're no good at sunny. The suns beats out your brain cells, so you always faint.. I've seen it, and frankly, it's embarrassing.
With fog, you do get a higher chance of recovery--e.g. building up somewhere unexpected. What I like about sunny is that you really have to plan the first move very well; with fog, you have a little bit more room for bullshitting.
iAmCaffeine wrote:I love how you choose a game against me just because I disagree, even if it is over a different point of the debate.
Mr Changsha wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.
Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.
But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.
Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy
Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?
That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)
Arama86n wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.
Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.
But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.
Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy
Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?
That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)
I've always thought you a very smart man Mr Changsha. This thread, and your questions puzzle me, if it was Someone else of experience asking them I'd think them trolling.
I have begun several replies to different posts in this thread, but cut myself off from irritation when I find myself stating the obvious.
My opinion would be that foggy games require more effort, thus the clan that puts in more effort into their games profits from their use. Why the best clans use fog thus becomes apparent. Why the mid-level clans use it needs only slightly more imagination. They imitate the strategies of the top clans and practice them in the hopes of one day becoming a top clan. (with a little more imagination it could be argued that trying to beat a clan you know to be superior at it's own game is a fools task, and other tactics might be used here, but I shall leave that avenue unexplored)
Why bottom ranked clans use fog is a question without a definitive answer I'd say, the reasons vary and are not always sound perhaps.
If I was tasked with leading 20ish likely privates and sergeants against TOFU I would probably stay in the sun, and the likes of Waterloo and Conquer Rome would NOT be found on the list of our homes games... And with that little hint I'll rest my case.
I could give you an A4 in clarification of this, but I believe you already know the answer. And I don't care to waste my time arguing with fools that would disagree with the obvious.
loutil wrote:Arama86n wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:iAmCaffeine wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:Interestingly, if one searches for active team games either public or private (but excluding tournament which of course includes clan games but also many others) we see this difference narrowing considerably. There are currently 665 active sunny team games on that basis and 770 active foggy (46% sunny games)
You have to consider that clan games form a large percentage of team games. If there were less clan games I would expect to see more public/private foggy team games.
Actually I would say no. My thesis is that clan games because they are clan games are in the fog, if those same players were not playing clan games then I would think a similar percentage 46% sunny\54% foggy would exist.
But I'm not sure you are tackling the key point.
Clan games 80%+ foggy
Public private team games 54% foggy
Why are clan games so much foggier than public and private team games?
That's my key point (or at least one of them heh heh)
I've always thought you a very smart man Mr Changsha. This thread, and your questions puzzle me, if it was Someone else of experience asking them I'd think them trolling.
I have begun several replies to different posts in this thread, but cut myself off from irritation when I find myself stating the obvious.
My opinion would be that foggy games require more effort, thus the clan that puts in more effort into their games profits from their use. Why the best clans use fog thus becomes apparent. Why the mid-level clans use it needs only slightly more imagination. They imitate the strategies of the top clans and practice them in the hopes of one day becoming a top clan. (with a little more imagination it could be argued that trying to beat a clan you know to be superior at it's own game is a fools task, and other tactics might be used here, but I shall leave that avenue unexplored)
Why bottom ranked clans use fog is a question without a definitive answer I'd say, the reasons vary and are not always sound perhaps.
If I was tasked with leading 20ish likely privates and sergeants against TOFU I would probably stay in the sun, and the likes of Waterloo and Conquer Rome would NOT be found on the list of our homes games... And with that little hint I'll rest my case.
I could give you an A4 in clarification of this, but I believe you already know the answer. And I don't care to waste my time arguing with fools that would disagree with the obvious.
This is just a more eloquent way of expressing my thoughts. Fog takes more skill as I already stated even if you disagree Mr C. If you and I played 20 random games with half being fog and half sunny I do believe, everything else being equal (the dice) you would come out behind. You supposed advantage with sunny would be less (my opinion) than my supposed advantage in the fog. You think I avoid sunny games because I am not as good at it. This is patently false. I do not play sunny because I find my tactical skills increase my probability of a win when playing in the fog.
I would argue, maybe not effectively, that fog games take more skill/strategy vs sunny games that seem more dice dependent to me. I can overcome a bad drop in the fog but almost never when sunny.
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