Letter to CC: Farmer List

[Fireside Poet]

Greetings Conquer Club!

Today while browsing through some different things on CC, I got to wondering if there would be any benefit to having a farmer list so we can put them on ignore and expose them as a detriment to the CC community. There have been many threads regarding this behavior, but no resolution as I could see. While these tactics are within the guidelines of the "rules" of Conquer Club, perhaps the community at large should unite in an effort to put a spotlight on these shady, underhanded practices.

Example:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=231446

In the above example, we see a cook with a score of roughly 650-700 being asked by karelpietertje with a score of roughly 4800 to join in a nice friendly freestyle Waterloo game. The intent is obvious. While the tongue-in-cheek gesture of "would be fun if you joined" is just a ruse for their roughly 2 points for the win, it is neither fun for the cook nor a learning experience, except to be in awe of the fast clicking of a freestyle setting and game that was only made as a trap and over within 5 rounds of play.

I am sure I am rehashing old arguments and ideas, but it is nauseating to see this day after day and perhaps I just needed to vent. This is one example of many and I'm just tired of seeing it done by these "high ranking" people who then receive praise for how good they are, when all they really are are charlatans and the CC equivalent of a greasy used car salesman. Acquire and use some class.

PS - This is just an example and not a hard fact that karelpietertje does this regularly ... it was just the one that broke the poet's cool.

[redhawk92]

i see nothing wrong with this karel isn't a farmer he would teach the cook after wards if he asked how to do something. if it is farmers your after look at the scoreboard and find one. many out there

[Fireside Poet]

Character witnessing isn't what I am after here. I am bringing up the method that is used with the possibility of getting a list together of those that employ these tactics and am testing the waters to see if there's anyone that agrees with my view. So singling out cooks and cadets with special personalized invitations to a game with these settings is alright and fairminded?

[redhawk92]

go ahead make your list and post it in the forum i am interested in it

if he was to play a major it would be a 2800 point difference is this farming?

[Bruceswar]

The cook in question plays many speed games. KP also plays many speed games. While you may not like freestyle many people love it. KP ask all sorts of people to join his games. The higher ranks usually do not. You will rarely see a major+ in a seq 1 vs 1 game, unless on a really odd map(to most) There is just too much luck involved in something like that for most people's liking. You work hard to win 70 points in say a 6 player seq escalating standard game, then you play a 1 vs 1 seq game and a PFC gets a nice drop and decent dice on a normalish. There goes half your win. Now obviously in a map like Classic art, there is not much you can do in a 1 vs 1 if the person has Aussie with 5 defending before you even take your turn. Most people like to play a game that takes a bit more skill than a 1 vs 1. The way to add more skill is to play freestyle. It is a fun element added to the game to make it fast paced. For anybody who has ever played say a first person shooter, then seq is like watching paint dry to them. If KP played you he would win a mere 7 points or less. Is that what you would consider Farming? Where is the line? What is the line?

[redhawk92]

why is freestyle considered over the line?

so many players don't respect freestyle speed players why?

freestyle speed
_____________________

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[owenshooter]

farming is now illegal on CC and has been since the new year. so, any members you find guilty of farming should be reported in C&A, not within this thread. why put up a list if you have proof of farming? why not turn them in and get some CC Justice? a thread is counter-productive to solving the problem, don't you think?-0

[Scott-Land]

Although I've disagreed with FP on certain issues-- this isn't one of them. And quite the opposite with you Bruce.... don't confuse defending the game ( which I do as well ) versus players that abuse it.

On a level playing field it is a great game but that's not what this is about. KP purposely invited the unsuspecting player not to teach or whatever but to gain a quick few measly points-- to take advantage of his ability or lack of. Spare me the point loss scenario because you and I both know that would never happen outside of him [KP] losing his internet connection.

[Bruceswar]

so many players don't respect freestyle speed players why?

Most people don't give any respect to freestyle speed players because often times many of these people are seen as 1 of 2 things.
1. A complainer who goes off on people when they have bad dice or the other person gets good dice.
2. Someone who uses freestyle as a quick way to gain points, which they see as (easy points)

With that said the first statement holds more truth than the 2nd.

[Bruceswar]

Although I've disagreed with FP on certain issues-- this isn't one of them. And quite the opposite with you Bruce.... don't confuse defending the game ( which I do as well ) versus players that abuse it.

On a level playing field it is a great game but that's not what this is about. KP purposely invited the unsuspecting player not to teach or whatever but to gain a quick few measly points-- to take advantage of his ability or lack of. Spare me the point loss scenario because you and I both know that would never happen outside of him [KP] losing his internet connection.

OK so per say when is the game, considered abuse and not abuse? Some people will say your 8 man games, were abuse, but we both know that not to be true. Others will say any 1 vs 1 freestyle speed game is abuse. The chances of that cook winning the 6 man Waterloo freestyle terminator game are very slim, but as you know with larger games it can take forever to fill sometimes. We waited an hour sometimes for an 8 man to fill. With that said we would ask in other speed game chats if people wanted to join. Generally we asked whoever just to try to get the game going. Now granted the maps are different, but if that same cook joined ask you asking in chat, on his wall or whatever, it would be in the same light?

My point is to some people any freestyle game is farming, to the people in the know there are different views on this subject. Now I do not know if KP foes anybody or has in some time, but I would assume if the person joined the game then well they did it on their own. Nobody holds a gun to your head and makes you join any game. If KP had joined his game well.. then that is a different story.

[Scott-Land]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between 8s and 1 vs 1s-- to say otherwise is laughable. Let's not stray off topic-- farming is a product of 1 vs 1s not 8s. How do you farm speed 8s ?

[redhawk92]

how can you farm if you make public games?

[Bruceswar]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between 8s and 1 vs 1s-- to say otherwise is laughable. Let's not stray off topic-- farming is a product of 1 vs 1s not 8s. How do you farm speed 8s ?

You cannot really, but some people say you can and do. Even if you played Waterloo freestyle 8 man escalating speed. How do you farm a 1 vs 1? I mean sure there are different skill levels and picking maps where many do not know helps your odds of winning. With that said nobody made any of these players join the games. If you played AOR 2 1 vs 1 FS speed since that is what you enjoyed, then are you a farmer, since likely you will be very good and thus pretty high ranked. Is that specializing or farming? If you start foeing people who beat you then it is farming? If not it is just specializing?

[jiminski]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between 8s and 1 vs 1s-- to say otherwise is laughable. Let's not stray off topic-- farming is a product of 1 vs 1s not 8s. How do you farm speed 8s ?

You cannot really, but some people say you can and do. Even if you played Waterloo freestyle 8 man escalating speed. How do you farm a 1 vs 1? I mean sure there are different skill levels and picking maps where many do not know helps your odds of winning. With that said nobody made any of these players join the games. If you played AOR 2 1 vs 1 FS speed since that is what you enjoyed, then are you a farmer, since likely you will be very good and thus pretty high ranked. Is that specializing or farming? If you start foeing people who beat you then it is farming? If not it is just specializing?

good points .. all excellent defences of farming.. in the wrong hands.
i do not mean yours Bruce, you are sincerely arguing them but beware the cogent rebuke from the dudes on 4 or 5 K...

anyway get your arse in the speed game in the 2k+ speed thread, 1 spot left!

[AndyDufresne]

As stated earlier in this topic---If you come across evidence that players are deliberately targetting new recruits or lower rank players for the purpose of farming or gaining easy points---by means of PM, Wall Posts, Game Chats, Live Chat, etc---please report any findings in the Cheating and Abuse forum.

Players that target or harass new users/lower ranked users, should surely be dealt with.


--Andy

[azezzo]

fireside poet i think this is a good idea, a list of the abusive farmers could serve 2 purposes.

1) warn all the unsuspecting players of this
2) cause these farmers to rethink their actions

[Bruceswar]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between 8s and 1 vs 1s-- to say otherwise is laughable. Let's not stray off topic-- farming is a product of 1 vs 1s not 8s. How do you farm speed 8s ?

You cannot really, but some people say you can and do. Even if you played Waterloo freestyle 8 man escalating speed. How do you farm a 1 vs 1? I mean sure there are different skill levels and picking maps where many do not know helps your odds of winning. With that said nobody made any of these players join the games. If you played AOR 2 1 vs 1 FS speed since that is what you enjoyed, then are you a farmer, since likely you will be very good and thus pretty high ranked. Is that specializing or farming? If you start foeing people who beat you then it is farming? If not it is just specializing?

good points .. all excellent defences of farming.. in the wrong hands.
i do not mean yours Bruce, you are sincerely arguing them but beware the cogent rebuke from the dudes on 4 or 5 K...

anyway get your arse in the speed game in the 2k+ speed thread, 1 spot left!

If I was not going to eat soon I would have joined that game

[Rocketry]

Greetings Conquer Club!

Today while browsing through some different things on CC, I got to wondering if there would be any benefit to having a farmer list so we can put them on ignore and expose them as a detriment to the CC community. There have been many threads regarding this behavior, but no resolution as I could see. While these tactics are within the guidelines of the "rules" of Conquer Club, perhaps the community at large should unite in an effort to put a spotlight on these shady, underhanded practices.

Example:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=231446

In the above example, we see a cook with a score of roughly 650-700 being asked by karelpietertje with a score of roughly 4800 to join in a nice friendly freestyle Waterloo game. The intent is obvious. While the tongue-in-cheek gesture of "would be fun if you joined" is just a ruse for their roughly 2 points for the win, it is neither fun for the cook nor a learning experience, except to be in awe of the fast clicking of a freestyle setting and game that was only made as a trap and over within 5 rounds of play.

I am sure I am rehashing old arguments and ideas, but it is nauseating to see this day after day and perhaps I just needed to vent. This is one example of many and I'm just tired of seeing it done by these "high ranking" people who then receive praise for how good they are, when all they really are are charlatans and the CC equivalent of a greasy used car salesman. Acquire and use some class.

PS - This is just an example and not a hard fact that karelpietertje does this regularly ... it was just the one that broke the poet's cool.

I'm siding firmly with fireside on this one. I think it would be really useful to have a black-list of players who farm regularly. It would never be quite up to date nor would it ever have every farmer on it but it would be useful none the less.

It would be difficult though. I think the first stage would be to define "farmer" in absolute terms.
Eg:
*20 or more "farming" games
*Use of freestyle
*Use of clickies
*Over 2000 pts
*Opponents all under 800 pts
*All in the last 8 weeks

That was just a quick off-the-top-of-my-head list and will need refining. It's just an example.

Rocket.

[owenshooter]

fireside poet i think this is a good idea, a list of the abusive farmers could serve 2 purposes.

1) warn all the unsuspecting players of this
2) cause these farmers to rethink their actions

how is this going to help anything? maybe you missed this post:

farming is now illegal on CC and has been since the new year. so, any members you find guilty of farming should be reported in C&A, not within this thread. why put up a list if you have proof of farming? why not turn them in and get some CC Justice? a thread is counter-productive to solving the problem, don't you think?-0

or this post from an admin backing up that post:

As stated earlier in this topic---If you come across evidence that players are deliberately targetting new recruits or lower rank players for the purpose of farming or gaining easy points---by means of PM, Wall Posts, Game Chats, Live Chat, etc---please report any findings in the Cheating and Abuse forum.

Players that target or harass new users/lower ranked users, should surely be dealt with.


--Andy

it really seems as if people are just posting in here without reading any of the posts within the thread. this thread and what it is proposing to do is useless and would serve no purpose. if you find a farmer you turn them into C&A where they will be dealt with. you don't put them on some "list" for players to be wary of. at the start of the new year, lack clearly stated that farmers and the practice of farming would no longer be tolerated on CC... here, just incase you missed THAT post, too:

Subject: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits to gain easy points by taking advantage of difficult game options and the fact the New Recruits are more likely to deadbeat. Some players have been farming extensively - even sending hundreds of PMs to the latest members to get them into their games.

This is a gross abuse of the game. It gives the New Recruit "victims" a poor first experience and reduces the chances of them sticking around. As farmers move up the scoreboard it also harms the competitive nature of Conquer Club - the scoreboard is meant to measure skill in the game, not "harvesting" techniques.

In accordance with the desires and feedback of the majority of the community, our rules and as a new leaf for 2009, it is our New Years resolution to make Newbie Farming forbidden. Members who continue this practice will receive point resets and then progressively longer website bans.

This does not mean you will get in trouble for joining a game here and there with many new recruits. We are only talking about the systematic targeting of new recruits.

We have taken the following measures to stop Newbie Farming:

• For New Recruits, we filtered out game options from the join page if they reduce the chance of new players reaching their 1st promotion (see here here and here).
  
• We shut down any usergroups with a focus on Newbie Farming.
  
• We are sending individual warnings to the Farmers Guild and select other users who have practiced farming in the past. These should be arriving soon.

If you don't officially receive a warning, consider this it...we may have overlooked you once, but we won't do it again.

Thanks and have a nice day

what you guys are doing is proposing something that is not going to solve the problem or be part of the solution. not to mention you are not mods, and several times within the C&A forums, players are checked out and then cleared. this thread could easily become a well intentioned, yet misguided witch hunt. i suggest you do what you are supposed to do, and even what andy and myself suggested you do, and report all suspected farmers within the C&A forum... a with hunt will not solve the problem, it will just leave innocent people charred at the stake of many false accusations...-0

p.s.-where is night strike when you need him?

[Bruceswar]

It would be difficult though. I think the first stage would be to define "farmer" in absolute terms.
Eg:
*20 or more "farming" games
*Use of freestyle
*Use of clickies
*Over 2000 pts
*Opponents all under 800 pts
*All in the last 8 weeks

That was just a quick off-the-top-of-my-head list and will need refining. It's just an example.

Rocket.

How can you say Freestyle speed with clickable maps is farming? Most speed players have it. Most opponents are over 800 points that play speed games. Your list is pretty downright terrible. This line is very gray. Until CC defines it better from their stand point it will always be gray.

[hwhrhett]

a list of farmers to put on ignore seems counter-productive....

i mean if theyre good at farming they would likely love to have those in the know not join their games so they can concentrate on the weaker folks...


that being said, i dont think that farming is as big a problem as it was before. but i also dont think its a problem thats possible to rid us of completely. there will always be better players taking advantage of weaker players..


and just because i cant help but ask, im trying to get my assassin medal without playing assassin freestyle. so ive been creating massive ammounts of games on pelopenesian war foggy, adj, esc, assassin. 20 or so games at a time, so i end up with uniques, rather than having the same 10-15 assassin players join my games over and over again.... i specifically learned this technique from the farmers, but im not taking advantage of anybody in the same way.

am i a farmer? does farming for medals have a different stigma attached to it then farming for points does?

[Scott-Land]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between 8s and 1 vs 1s-- to say otherwise is laughable. Let's not stray off topic-- farming is a product of 1 vs 1s not 8s. How do you farm speed 8s ?

You cannot really, but some people say you can and do. Even if you played Waterloo freestyle 8 man escalating speed. How do you farm a 1 vs 1? I mean sure there are different skill levels and picking maps where many do not know helps your odds of winning. With that said nobody made any of these players join the games. If you played AOR 2 1 vs 1 FS speed since that is what you enjoyed, then are you a farmer, since likely you will be very good and thus pretty high ranked. Is that specializing or farming? If you start foeing people who beat you then it is farming? If not it is just specializing?

You still haven't addressed what KP did-- either you believe it was farming or you don't. To be quite honest, I really have no idea what you're saying........ he invited the cook because they were buds and they'd have a great time playing?

a list of farmers to put on ignore seems counter-productive....

i mean if theyre good at farming they would likely love to have those in the know not join their games so they can concentrate on the weaker folks...


that being said, i dont think that farming is as big a problem as it was before. but i also dont think its a problem thats possible to rid us of completely. there will always be better players taking advantage of weaker players..


and just because i cant help but ask, im trying to get my assassin medal without playing assassin freestyle. so ive been creating massive ammounts of games on pelopenesian war foggy, adj, esc, assassin. 20 or so games at a time, so i end up with uniques, rather than having the same 10-15 assassin players join my games over and over again.... i specifically learned this technique from the farmers, but im not taking advantage of anybody in the same way.

am i a farmer? does farming for medals have a different stigma attached to it then farming for points does?

There are certainly maps that favor assassin game types Hr-- but it would only be farming if you pmed 20 cooks to join those games. That's the point here.... how can one really determine intent when it comes to inviting players to one's games ?

[King_Herpes]

Farm or Die!

[karelpietertje]

Hello,

I would like to point out however that I do not only invite cooks, as the example that Fireside_Poet gives might suggest, but anybody.

As much as everybody, I dispise harrassing specifically noobs to join their games through auto-join links or severe wall/PM spamming.
However, please don't use me as an example, because I am not guilty of this.

Mooo
KP

[Woodruff]

why is freestyle considered over the line?
so many players don't respect freestyle speed players why?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my personal view of freestyle speed
games is that they're not "real strategy"...they're all about speed. Speed
overwhelms, so the strongest strategy simply isn't necessary.

Then again, I prefer the "chess style" of playing (being able to think things
through when I make my moves) and I hate first-person-shooter games for
the same reason. So I do recognize that it's a "style" issue for me as much
as anything...but the above is why I personally don't respect those who
ONLY play freestyle speed games.

I would also say that I hold the same disdain for map-specialists (no matter
whether freestyle or sequential), though obviously for different reasons.

(Not trying to crack on you guys...just answering the question that
was posed.)

Oh, and for what it's worth, I agree entirely with the point that owenshooter
(and Andy) are making.